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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elrantiri View Post
    As for being capable tanks it's not like we need that much, I think changing Pressing Attacks target legacy to "Aoe Skill targets" and make it affect Threatening Shout, Routing Cry and Pressing Attack will be enough to get us the AoE aggro we need.
    I agree that a legacy or trait to further boost aoe skill targets for forced taunts would help a lot. That really is the only major flaw I can see in cappy tanking now, as our survivability has increased a lot. That said, I wouldn't want to lose the Pressing Attacks target legacy, as I do use that and know many other Captains who do too. The trait that gives +3 targets for Threatening Shout should give +5 at least.

    -Bel
    Belnavar - Captain - 105 - Brandywine - Leader of Keepers of the Palantiri

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belnavar View Post
    I agree that a legacy or trait to further boost aoe skill targets for forced taunts would help a lot. That really is the only major flaw I can see in cappy tanking now, as our survivability has increased a lot. That said, I wouldn't want to lose the Pressing Attacks target legacy, as I do use that and know many other Captains who do too. The trait that gives +3 targets for Threatening Shout should give +5 at least.

    -Bel
    Well my idea would be to improve the legacy so it affects Pressing Attack + our two other AoE skills rather than just Pressing Attack. To make the legacy more fair I'd also suggest making Pressing Attack a 3 or 4 target skill from the beginning, and then make legacy give 1-3 targets to those three skills.

  3. #28
    Thanks for the write up Bel. This will definitely help us Cappies that did not participate in Beta.

    I do have a couple questions.

    1- What are our base skills that we get regardless of specialization or gated behind traits. Previous statements suggested all classes would get aprox 7-8. I'm guessing Sure Strike, Cutting Attack, Dev Blow, PA, BoE, Rally Cry and WoC would be some of them.

    2- What happens to the moors mit banner now that regular banners become skills?

    3- I didn't see Cutting Attack listed in your write up. Does it still apply a slow?

    4- Any changes to moors armor set bonuses? The 2 set Perseverance defeat event cd was a go to set bonus. With Rally Cry decoupled from defeat events, this set bonus priority may change.

    Thanks.
    Gungus - Captain

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by draconis-halberd7 View Post
    Bottom line is different is not "better" in my opinion. If you're looking at the big picture and thinking things are better overall than on Live, then you're deluded. The big picture is that we've lost most of our multiple role viability. Sure we got a small increase in each role but overall we're less than what we were preHD. And as of Beta5 I'm not even confident we'll be decent tanks, so if it stays like that then we'll be down to 2 viable builds.
    I somewhat disagree. We have indeed lost some of the skills that make Captains excel in a multirole setup, but I think there's plenty of potential for hybrid builds (e.g. specializing in HoH and spend most points in LtC or vice versa). The only thing we will not see in the same potency is 5r2b and how it gave us brilliant buffing, DPS and healing in one build, and it was (AFAIK) the only build RockX specifically wanted to nerf, especially in regards to the high amount of healing LtC could give.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belnavar View Post
    Q: Why would the tanking Captain provide tanking buffs to others or the healing Captain provide healing buffs to others?
    A: To understand this, it is important to note that the buffs also apply to the Captain. The tier six passive set bonus of each line gives the Captain the full benefits of the Brother skills. Thus the tanking Captain will receive the tanking buffs he/she is giving others and the healing Captain will receive the healing buffs he/she is giving others. Likewise for the dps Captain in Lead the Charge. Most of the buffs provide some use to all classes.
    It might also be worth noting that the buffs can be useful across the fellowship. Shield-brother To Arms will give a decent -% incoming damage to the fellowship, and I can see several instances where that will be useful. In some fights there will be moments where DPS is tanking some mobs (e.g. BfE T2CM, Gortheron), and being able to buff e.g. a DPS Champion with some survivability will surely be of good help to your healers.
    As a HoH Captain in a 3 or 6 man the Song-brother can still be used to buff the heals the tank produce on his/her own while buffing your heals as well. I think especially Wardens and LoM Captains will make good use of being Song-brother.

    While Captains have lost in regards to buff versatility, I think this is more of an advantage than a problem. Captains still get to supply rather potent buffs and by having different kinds of buffs in each Trait line, having more than 1 Captain in each Fellowship becomes a lot more viable, especially if they become as potent in the healing/tanking/DPS role as they seem to become.

  5. #30
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    I'm just curious to see if these changes affect the overall effectiveness of the class. Until I get some hardcore real-time testing in the final build, I'll reserve my (very skeptical) judgement until then.
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  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by erikthe10man View Post
    I'm just curious to see if these changes affect the overall effectiveness of the class. Until I get some hardcore real-time testing in the final build, I'll reserve my (very skeptical) judgement until then.
    The short of it:

    If you go all in to a specific traitline, you will become a main healer, main DPSer, or main tank.

    If you want to maintain the usual captain way of doing things, you have a lot of options to be support.

    RockX basically one-upped Rask.
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  7. #32

    Tactic Durtion

    IMHO the legacy for Tactic Duration should be a class LI legacy
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  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by gungus_coyote View Post
    1- What are our base skills that we get regardless of specialization or gated behind traits. Previous statements suggested all classes would get aprox 7-8. I'm guessing Sure Strike, Cutting Attack, Dev Blow, PA, BoE, Rally Cry and WoC would be some of them.
    Our general pool of skills is much higher than that, over 20, and each line adds between 6-8 more. The base skills are:

    Battle-shout
    Sure Strike
    Devastating Blow
    Blade of Elendil
    Pressing Attack
    Rallying Cry
    Routing Cry
    Cutting Attack
    Grave Wound
    Make Haste
    Muster Courage
    Motivating Speech
    Words of Courage
    Kick
    Cleanse Corruption
    Fighting Withdrawal
    Escape from Darkness
    Inspiriting Call
    Herald of Hope
    Herald of Victory
    Herald of War

    We also have the Brother skill, To Arms, and Inspire, all three of which are available in all builds in their distinctive forms (Song-brother, Blade-brother, etc.) Then we have the 6-8 from each line added on top of this. In some ways we come out with more active combat skills than before.

    Bear in mind that the above skills also have their Improved versions still, as far as I can recall.

    Quote Originally Posted by gungus_coyote View Post
    2- What happens to the moors mit banner now that regular banners become skills?
    You can still equip it (even with a Herald), but you can no longer plant it. However, the Herald of Hope now gives +2% Physical and Tactical Mitigations instead of the old morale boost. I didn't see any level 95 Moors Standards, but then I didn't see any level 95 gear either, so maybe it just hasn't been added yet and will go in before launch or in a later update.

    Quote Originally Posted by gungus_coyote View Post
    3- I didn't see Cutting Attack listed in your write up. Does it still apply a slow?
    Yes, that is the same as on live. If it isn't listed specifically as a change, expect the skill or functionality to be the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by gungus_coyote View Post
    4- Any changes to moors armor set bonuses? The 2 set Perseverance defeat event cd was a go to set bonus. With Rally Cry decoupled from defeat events, this set bonus priority may change.
    Command 2-Set: +Crit Defence
    Command 4-Set: Sure Strike increases damage to target by 5% for 10s

    Perseverance 2-Set: +Crit Defence
    Perseverance 4-Set: Make Haste Cures Slows and provides 5s Immunity

    Loyalty 2-Set: +Crit Defence
    Loyalty 4-Set: Routing Cry debuffs Incoming Healing by 35% for 10s

    There is no level 95 armour set yet, as far as I could see, but then I don't believe there's a PvE 95 set yet either. It seems that initially we'll be focusing on jewellery set bonuses from Big Battles, with armour sets coming in a later update (presumably with additional group content).

    Quote Originally Posted by erikthe10man View Post
    I'm just curious to see if these changes affect the overall effectiveness of the class. Until I get some hardcore real-time testing in the final build, I'll reserve my (very skeptical) judgement until then.
    From my experience on beta, the class is generally more effective at its three primary roles, and buffs just as good as ever (in some cases better). The tanking line in particular saw a lot of love, upping our survivability considerably, but as others have noted, we have limited AOE abilities, so multi-target tanking will still be difficult.

    -Bel
    Last edited by Belnavar; Nov 05 2013 at 12:36 PM.
    Belnavar - Captain - 105 - Brandywine - Leader of Keepers of the Palantiri

  9. #34
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    Great Fan of the Changes, played a little around in Beta and the Captain still feels like the Captain.

    Nevertheless I still need a few hours more trainig with all the passive Buffs and Boni now bundled with acitve Skills. Spend more time looking at my buffs as on the Fight itself.
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  10. #35
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    How is captain power usage in beta? I'm a little concerned that the Rally Cry power heal (equivalent to Now For Wrath, which I think just about every captain perma-slots as soon as we earn it now) is becoming a t6 HoH trait. Did they rescale power costs to balance the fact that we often will not have that power heal? Or will we need to put all the -power cost legacies we can get onto our LIs, and quite possibly still be left sucking wind in long fights?

    Glad to see there's at least one class that's pretty happy with what's coming! My cappy may yet see another level cap.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    And Aarden's still bitter about the changes....

    Get over it dude....
    I'm gonna assume you mean me. *shrug* I call it how I see it and provide evidence or a logical explanation of WHY I feel that way. You just label me "bitter" and assume that disproves my points? Guess who I think provides the most convincing post...

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elrantiri View Post
    Well my idea would be to improve the legacy so it affects Pressing Attack + our two other AoE skills rather than just Pressing Attack. To make the legacy more fair I'd also suggest making Pressing Attack a 3 or 4 target skill from the beginning, and then make legacy give 1-3 targets to those three skills.
    Good idea here for aoe tanking, but all 3 aoe skills have fairly long cooldowns. This is not going to be enough against an aoe champ or rk.

    Maybe if pressing attack was removed from our battle shout chain?

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by aardnebby View Post
    Good idea here for aoe tanking, but all 3 aoe skills have fairly long cooldowns. This is not going to be enough against an aoe champ or rk.

    Maybe if pressing attack was removed from our battle shout chain?
    I'm pretty clueless on RKs, but especially Champions would enjoy a good bit from being our Shield-brother for the heals, To Arms and Call buff, so if the Captank misses a few mobs it shouldn't be that much of a problem.

    Making Pressing Attack available all the time could work too, but it'd be very repetitive?

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elrantiri View Post
    I'm pretty clueless on RKs, but especially Champions would enjoy a good bit from being our Shield-brother for the heals, To Arms and Call buff, so if the Captank misses a few mobs it shouldn't be that much of a problem.

    Making Pressing Attack available all the time could work too, but it'd be very repetitive?
    Squishy ranged aoe dps is incompatible with poor aoe tanking. Champs can take some hits yes, but it will strain healers if they are pealing all but 1 mob off us cos they can hit what, 7 at a time with most skills in aoe tree, while we have currently 3 skills on 20 second cool downs.

    And yes spamming the same skill is repetitive, but there's no chance of us getting more skills, so only other options are lowered cool down or making more existing skills aoe

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by aardnebby View Post
    Squishy ranged aoe dps is incompatible with poor aoe tanking. Champs can take some hits yes, but it will strain healers if they are pealing all but 1 mob off us cos they can hit what, 7 at a time with most skills in aoe tree, while we have currently 3 skills on 20 second cool downs.

    And yes spamming the same skill is repetitive, but there's no chance of us getting more skills, so only other options are lowered cool down or making more existing skills aoe
    Yeah, but I think/hope a big factor here will be our healing. If there's a threat multiplier on our heals (and if it works :P), our heals just might offset the lack of AoE damage skills.

  16. #41
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    it might sound like a weird tactic but if your a captain solo tanking content, you don't really need to worry too much about aoe because your shield-brother will be getting very strong buffs to keep him alive. you will be doing more actually healing if that champ is taking a little damage and with Exemplar you might get dunadains shield off cooldown much quicker if both of you are being hit.

    it sounds backwards but compared to other tanks that dread aggro being lost to the aoe guy, you don't have to worry as much.
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  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elrantiri View Post
    Yeah, but I think/hope a big factor here will be our healing. If there's a threat multiplier on our heals (and if it works :P), our heals just might offset the lack of AoE damage skills.
    Good question. I was under the impression the threat multiplier was only dps. But even if it is on our heals, that's basically just rallying cry and inspire to add on. Can we spam aoe threat as fast as a dps?

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by bohbashum View Post
    it might sound like a weird tactic but if your a captain solo tanking content, you don't really need to worry too much about aoe because your shield-brother will be getting very strong buffs to keep him alive. you will be doing more actually healing if that champ is taking a little damage and with Exemplar you might get dunadains shield off cooldown much quicker if both of you are being hit.

    it sounds backwards but compared to other tanks that dread aggro being lost to the aoe guy, you don't have to worry as much.
    Are you trolling? I just responded to this point 2 - 3 posts up.

    Champ aoe = 7 targets right? If a captain can only match threat on 1 target, that makes 6 on the champ and one on the captain. That's not the captain tanking anymore. The champ doing that better pray they have a great healer, cos they will need it even with our defensive buffs.

    The rk doing the same thing is dead as soon as sotd wears off.

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by aardnebby View Post
    Are you trolling? I just responded to this point 2 - 3 posts up.
    *Note to self* - must read threads fully before jumping in.

    sorry XD

    HOWEVER!!!

    Champ aoe = 7 targets right? If a captain can only match threat on 1 target, that makes 6 on the champ and one on the captain.
    captain has 2 force taunts iinc, one of them being 3 target and ranged (Threatening shout) and one being melee (Grave Wound).

    also, threatening shout it's in the skill list but I'm pretty sure it has the taunt mechanism now.
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  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by aardnebby View Post
    Good question. I was under the impression the threat multiplier was only dps. But even if it is on our heals, that's basically just rallying cry and inspire to add on. Can we spam aoe threat as fast as a dps?
    As much as it is "only" inspire and rallying cry to add on, it's still easily 500+ healing per second for a 3 man group + herald. If that's multiplied with a decent threat multiplier, that'll go a long way for our threat as I see it.

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by bohbashum View Post
    *Note to self* - must read threads fully before jumping in.

    sorry XD

    HOWEVER!!!


    captain has 2 force taunts iinc, one of them being 3 target and ranged (Threatening shout) and other being melee (Grave Wound).

    also, threatening shout it's in the skill list but I'm pretty sure it has the taunt mechanism now.
    No worries, glad you said that. The new taunt sets your threat to 120% of the highest person. In a long fight this is enough to keep up, but in a shorter fight they will blow past that 20% buffer in less than the cool down of your taunt. And it is still not enough targets as is. There are plenty of potential solutions, but right now we fail as a multi target tank.

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elrantiri View Post
    As much as it is "only" inspire and rallying cry to add on, it's still easily 500+ healing per second for a 3 man group + herald. If that's multiplied with a decent threat multiplier, that'll go a long way for our threat as I see it.
    Numbers have not been balanced yet so 500 could be way off, or it could be dead on, still insufficient.

    There is also no info I have been able to find about threat for healing from a tank.

    So basically, who knows? I can only give logical responses to facts, so this is basically like saying "have faith" as the answer to a maths question. Or you should be saying "healing threat is a viable solution to our aoe threat problem if it's set up right, hey RockX could you take a look please? ".

    Since he only responds to me after 4+ repetitions, and I get exactly the kind of dismissive "bitter" comments to my logic there I'm not bothering to post in the beta thread anymore.

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by aardnebby View Post
    No worries, glad you said that. The new taunt sets your threat to 120% of the highest person. In a long fight this is enough to keep up, but in a shorter fight they will blow past that 20% buffer in less than the cool down of your taunt. And it is still not enough targets as is. There are plenty of potential solutions, but right now we fail as a multi target tank.
    thats not all btw, apprantly if you use a taunt and you already have aggro skills after that do more aggro for a short time... we've not seen this in beta though but using a taunt with you already having aggro can do, stuff, just maths is very fussy.

    aggro is not x3 on healing btw. pretty damn sure about that.

    also, rock hasn't said it but egg has on wardens (talking about beta forums...) about huge dps changes to make sure tanks are competitive in terms of dps to aggro. knowing how low captains dps was on beta in this line I wouldn't be surprised if captain got some huge rebalancing of dps on skills. things like maybe boosting pressing attack in LoM or making Routing much more powerful. not exactly sure but maybe something along the same lines as warden sounds to be getting.

    ofc I doubt captains will get much more. but I would love to see them be competent enough on at least 3 targets and keep that up easy enough and be a fully viable tank in all content.
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  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by bohbashum View Post
    thats not all btw, apprantly if you use a taunt and you already have aggro skills after that do more aggro for a short time... we've not seen this in beta though but using a taunt with you already having aggro can do, stuff, just maths is very fussy.

    aggro is not x3 on healing btw. pretty damn sure about that.

    also, rock hasn't said it but egg has on wardens (talking about beta forums...) about huge dps changes to make sure tanks are competitive in terms of dps to aggro. knowing how low captains dps was on beta in this line I wouldn't be surprised if captain got some huge rebalancing of dps on skills. things like maybe boosting pressing attack in LoM or making Routing much more powerful. not exactly sure but maybe something along the same lines as warden sounds to be getting.

    ofc I doubt captains will get much more. but I would love to see them be competent enough on at least 3 targets and keep that up easy enough and be a fully viable tank in all content.
    Well this kinda amateur balancing and project management is one of the reasons why this revamp is failing so badly. They didn't even discuss expected dps INTERNALLY til Beta 3, so how the heck are they even sure 300% extra threat is the right balance?

    I have been in since beta 2, and so far it's stumbled from a complete farce to merely "somewhat rubbish". Sure that's an improvement from one beta to the next, but I'm being asked for significantly more money than my current subscription in exchange for an expansion that is actually less fun than playing was before.
    Last edited by aardnebby; Nov 05 2013 at 08:46 AM.

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by aardnebby View Post
    Well this kinda amateur balancing and project management is one of the reasons why this revamp is failing so badly. They didn't even discuss expected dps INTERNALLY til Beta 3, so how the heck are they even sure 300% extra threat is the right balance?
    you can only balance numbers at the end when you have more solid build. just makes sense, anything else you'd be rebalancing stuff you balanced before and just wasting time.

    balance tank dps 1/3rd of that of "normal" dps classes.
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