Council visiting Turbine

[AaronIU]

It isn't always the customer, correct. I have seen posts where the GMs were in the wrong. But in this case, I would say they didn't give you a frozen steak. They gave you one you didn't like...so you sent it back...they did it again, you sent it back, they tried again, and you threw a fit because it is STILL how you don't like it...then when they said ok we are not going to make it again, you get pissed and throw a fit.

PVPers are that customer. No one is happy anymore, so there is no reason to try to work with the many. instead they work with the few. Betas, Q&A, etc.

I don't know the instance with Leon. So I can't comment on it. I have seen GMs do wrong things many times. But that does not affect PVP in general.

I think the more appropriate analogy with your example is them bringing you a frozen steak, when you complain about how little it was cooked they then charcoal it.. throw it down on your table and walk away. All the while you try to explain how you want it, they never return to your table until it's time to serve you the bill. Meanwhile at the pve solo'ers.. er i mean the other table they were served a 5 star meal with complimentary dessert.

Regardless if you freep or creep, you often spent TP to do so, or a VIP sub. Many VIP pvp'ers are now unsubbing due to the lack of attention. Sure, this is a small percentage, but what makes one VIP worth more than any other? There are so many suggestions about how to make PVP better and if they listened perhaps this small percentage would expand. Get people hooked on the moors, and you have a customer who will continue to sub just for the experience. Have somewhat semblance of balance, or development at least, and people will not get bored. As others have said, even giving us a mail system or a vault would be a good start. Add some in-combat potions to enhance creeps roles would even add a shred of complexity more than already exists. Those are good starts.. and they are things people have asked for for years.

[lionoil]

PVPers are that customer. No one is happy anymore, so there is no reason to try to work with the many. instead they work with the few. Betas, Q&A, etc.

You took the words out of my mouth, or rather, finally see how I see.
This the reason why asking for feedback is pointless, because unless im proven wrong, Turbine aren't going to listen to us, and anything we say without factoring into the changing coming in HD is even more so pointless.

Now you see why unless someone can prove to me they're going to take anything said in this forum serious: its a waste of time.

[Yicky]

I think the more appropriate analogy with your example is them bringing you a frozen steak, when you complain about how little it was cooked they then charcoal it.. throw it down on your table and walk away. All the while you try to explain how you want it, they never return to your table until it's time to serve you the bill. Meanwhile at the pve solo'ers.. er i mean the other table they were served a 5 star meal with complimentary dessert.

Regardless if you freep or creep, you often spent TP to do so, or a VIP sub. Many VIP pvp'ers are now unsubbing due to the lack of attention. Sure, this is a small percentage, but what makes one VIP worth more than any other? There are so many suggestions about how to make PVP better and if they listened perhaps this small percentage would expand. Get people hooked on the moors, and you have a customer who will continue to sub just for the experience. Have somewhat semblance of balance, or development at least, and people will not get bored. As others have said, even giving us a mail system or a vault would be a good start. Add some in-combat potions to enhance creeps roles would even add a shred of complexity more than already exists. Those are good starts.. and they are things people have asked for for years.

That is where we are at now. But at this point...I am trying to take full advantage of the opportunity given to speak 1 on 1 with the Dev team for an extended period of time. Being your voice in the best way possible. I am not a blue name...But I will be talking to them personally...in front of their faces...so give me stuff to take to them
I have a big long list(and they know it is coming) from both sides of E, and from the community as a whole. Including Harg's and Oraks If you have more, gimme. I will take as much as I can.

You took the words out of my mouth, or rather, finally see how I see.
This the reason why asking for feedback is pointless, because unless im proven wrong, Turbine aren't going to listen to us, and anything we say without factoring into the changing coming in HD is even more so pointless.

Now you see why unless someone can prove to me they're going to take anything said in this forum serious: its a waste of time.

Hopefully this meeting is NOT a waste of time. Who knows. But I would hope that Turbine would not spend thousands of dollars in air fare, hotel, and food to send a group of players to Turbine. One of who is 100% pvp if they had no wish to continue with PVP. But time will tell.

[Magnanimity]

Yicky,

I, for one, appreciate the seriousness and maturity with which you are approaching these conversations and the possible impact they may have on everyone's experiences in LoTRO, more specifically in the 'Moors. I unsubbed a few months ago because of the reasons that many have, so there's no point in "laundry listing" them here. I understand people's reticence in trusting "the Man," but also appreciate the fact that you are approaching this from the "we have nothing to lose and everything to gain" point of view. For those who are "doubting Thomas'," look at it this way: Yicky is going into these conversations with the best possible feedback, the best possible attitude, and the experience to back up anything he/we request, which puts all of us in the best possible position to garner some ground here. Additionally, because of these facts, if Turbine fails to deliver, as they have before, then Yicky's attitude and professionalism will simply prove the point that this was all a "token" gesture; either way, we will either gain some satisfaction in the game, or we will be completely justified in our doubts and can walk away from LoTRo knowing we have done everything possible to make the game a better place. Oh, and Turbine will have no one to point the finger at except themselves.

Thank you for reading, and, again, thank you, Yicky, for the time and dedication you have shown Creeps and the 'Moors over the years; you are appreciated.

Cheers,

Kugnakhaluk, Usurper

[J2theMul]

The customer is always right and the proof of this is the moors itself and the large amount of vets who have left mate. No customers equals no game. When you have the gm's/dev thinking thier right you have what we have now empty moors.


The reason a lot of vets left is they dont listen to us. Theres 5 years worth of proof of this. Removing cj's from the moors who's idiotic idea was that lol. All i saw was bad idea after bad idea put into the moors and if you criticize them heres an infraction.

What they really gave pvp'rs was the bird LOL thats the best way to put it

[elvenwarlord619]

Not really.(discussion I have had as well) It is not the Dev's job to get reamed. There is a proper and polite way to bring the issues forward..

You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar

This is true here as well. If you go into a retail store and you raise a fit because you didn't like the way something was handled, you get kicked out of the store. They aren't going to listen to you if you are screaming at them. But if you say that you have an issue, explain what it is and why, as well as thoughts(not demands) on how to fix it, you are more likely to get interaction.

People will be pissed either way and it is a no win scenario. You can't please everyone, and with PVPers they all have their own mindset on what is right, wrong, good, bad, stupid, smart, etc.

Until the community gets together and creates a positive dialogue(probably wont happen) we are not likely to see a lot of Blue name interaction into the public forum community

They get paid to make decisions about a game that people play. Those people spend money on said game that pay the salary of said developers. Reamed might have been the wrong word. It is the developers job to face feedback irregardless of it being either positive or negative. An example would be a bug that has continuously not gotten fixed over the course of xpacs and updates. I do not expect a dev to come on the forums and apologize profusely for not fixing it. But when there is repetitive feedback about the bug I do expect a quick post saying either it is being fixed or it is not important enough and resources are better spent in other places. I can respect that whether I agree with it or not. What we actually get is nothing. We get no comments on feedback. I have had more interaction with blue names in the various previews and betas I have participated in since 2007 than the general forums. This is an issue. I know a lot of players that have been in those programs and the programs are not a perfect representation of the community so devs cannot limit themselves to those programs to get feedback from. I personally represent a player type that is no longer prevalent in that I prefer 8 hour really hard raids. All the feedback I give tends to be geared towards how will this affect my playstyle. I don't see that as selfish but just the nature of how people judge things. How will it affect how I do things. The point is that these programs are not great representations of the community yet as you said thats where blue names tend to look for feedback and respond. I don't understand how blue names don't think that a response in opposition to my point of view is better in my mind than no response at all. At least the community would know where we stand and blue names opinions on things instead of having no response at all. That is their job. And they do it poorly. And its sad because it overshadows their good work at developing content for this game.

[lionoil]

Hopefully this meeting is NOT a waste of time. Who knows. But I would hope that Turbine would not spend thousands of dollars in air fare, hotel, and food to send a group of players to Turbine. One of who is 100% pvp if they had no wish to continue with PVP. But time will tell.

By what you've said, you've missed my point, which isnt good.
Im NOT saying YOUR trip to Turbine is a waste of time, im saying asking PLAYERS HERE IN THIS FORUM is a waste of time. Why ask for feedback, when its pointless feedback? Players here cannot see whats planned for HD, or see upcoming changes, so why even ask? POINTLESS. Example: Yicky, give me your feedback on my hunter im leveling, but you've never seen it. Do you think im going to take what you say serious? Nope, so why would I even ask you for feedback.

Yicky, ask me about my thoughts about what the moors needs...but I cannot see what your about to change in HD, so why ask when your changing it anyway? You should say: here are upcoming plans for HD which are subject to change, what are your thoughts. But you cant talk about those upcoming changes.

Beta testers wont change whats about to happen in HD, and even some in higher levels of testing wont change it, so the question isnt about -our- thoughts at all (GMs dont listen to anything we say here anyway! prove me wrong!). I think we should be finding out how to alter or suggest changes as Turbine are thinking about it. If I can figure out that, then it would be easy.

**So in conclusion Yicky, dont ask in a forum where blind mice are typing in this thread about their -thoughts- which mean nothing and are not relevant at all due to the Lotro overhaul in HD, because all your doing is pretending that out -thought- matter to Turbine when in actual fact Turbine are CULLING the -thought- of people by only listening to the select.

I hope your reply will tell me you understand my points.

EDIT: Lastly, Turbine have some smart people making good changes, and I have a moderate trust what they're going to change will be better. But the problems are not about asking for a change, its about the replacement, and I cant see the replacement, and I know I -cannot- get them to take me seriously. So these are the first massive problems I face, and everyone else. YOU NEED TO UNDERSTAND THAT. Yicky, you SEE what they suggest(?), but if the entire E community cannot see what you see, why ask what we think about it, we cant see it!

The one and only time feedback in these forums do something is when they change something like BAs FA dot and everyone cries a river and its altered. THATS ALL THESE FORUMS ARE GOOD FOR, CRYING. I hope a GM who just read that laughed, because its probably all they see when reading Pvmp forums.

[Yicky]

By what you've said, you've missed my point, which isnt good.
Im NOT saying YOUR trip to Turbine is a waste of time, im saying asking PLAYERS HERE IN THIS FORUM is a waste of time. Why ask for feedback, when its pointless feedback? Players here cannot see whats planned for HD, or see upcoming changes, so why even ask? POINTLESS. Example: Yicky, give me your feedback on my hunter im leveling, but you've never seen it. Do you think im going to take what you say serious? Nope, so why would I even ask you for feedback.

Yicky, ask me about my thoughts about what the moors needs...but I cannot see what your about to change in HD, so why ask when your changing it anyway? You should say: here are upcoming plans for HD which are subject to change, what are your thoughts. But you cant talk about those upcoming changes.

Beta testers wont change whats about to happen in HD, and even some in higher levels of testing wont change it, so the question isnt about -our- thoughts at all (GMs dont listen to anything we say here anyway! prove me wrong!). I think we should be finding out how to alter or suggest changes as Turbine are thinking about it. If I can figure out that, then it would be easy.

**So in conclusion Yicky, dont ask in a forum where blind mice are typing in this thread about their -thoughts- which mean nothing and are not relevant at all due to the Lotro overhaul in HD, because all your doing is pretending that out -thought- matter to Turbine when in actual fact Turbine are CULLING the -thought- of people by only listening to the select.

I hope your reply will tell me you understand my points.

EDIT: Lastly, Turbine have some smart people making good changes, and I have a moderate trust what they're going to change will be better. But the problems are not about asking for a change, its about the replacement, and I cant see the replacement, and I know I -cannot- get them to take me seriously. So these are the first massive problems I face, and everyone else. YOU NEED TO UNDERSTAND THAT. Yicky, you SEE what they suggest(?), but if the entire E community cannot see what you see, why ask what we think about it, we cant see it!

The one and only time feedback in these forums do something is when they change something like BAs FA dot and everyone cries a river and its altered. THATS ALL THESE FORUMS ARE GOOD FOR, CRYING. I hope a GM who just read that laughed, because its probably all they see when reading Pvmp forums.

oh no no no. I understand what you are saying. That was more of an open thought.

I agree that it is hard to generate feedback without knowning what is coming. I also agree that changes without TRUE community feedback does not help things much. Not only that, but not listening to feedback when it is overly negative by the majority of the community is disasterous. The creation of commendations and the KB change are good examples of that. Both were overly negative and implimented regardless.

There needs to be an open dialogue with IDEAS coming to the community BEFORE they are implimented to generate a good idea on what the community wants for PVP. On top of that, Turbine needs to be more transparent on the ideas that are in the mix so feedback can be generated better. Not limited to beta testers and council members. And brought forward as an idea long before it is pushed into beta. Seeing these changes a week or 2 before release does not create trust and builds a negative environment between the pvp community and the devs.

However, I will also say that ideas overall are good. Regardless of knowing what is coming or not. If you give me an idea and it is already being implimented, then all is good. But any other ideas or feedback of the current build is also good because that can warrant change.

Did i get on the same page as you?

[J2theMul]

These bloody devs need to be able to take criticism and realize were not here to make friends with them. We are customers and they are company. This isnt having beers at the pub with your best mate. These people are bieng payed by some of us still for a service. I dont care if they dont like how thier spoken to and if thier feelings are hurt thier not my friends im a customer.

Do you think when i get my brake pads replaced and thier on wrong i should be polite and say hey buddy you put the brake pads on wrong. Or should i be real and say hey you could of killed me and my entire family because you didnt do your job that your payed for.

Bieng polite is a 2 way street were not here to be friends with devs/gm's were here to enjoy a video game and pvp that has been destroyed not improved by these devs who cant take criticism but have time to code a bloody bird and tree into the game that does nothing but prove my point about them and thier competence in general.

I wish you luck in trying to improve the moors but realistically its been 5 years of not listening to us. I think this is a buttering up attempt imho to make people feel like thier listened to.

If they really cared about the moors they would at least apoligize about lying about that bloody new pvmp map that never came.

[lionoil]

Did i get on the same page as you?

Sure did, good to read.
Unlike most, I trust Turbine have the ability to think of ideas to impact Pvmp in positive ways without even asking us. Problem is usually when the percentage of there ideas are based of; bad assumptions what we want; crying from people; mimicking other games.

Oh, one thing I remember now while writing this.
*Turbine needs to implement Pros with equal Cons.
Far too many examples of players having gigantic cakes and cherries. Its as if Turbine are afraid of enforcing Cons on classes.

BUT, this comment is irreverent since there is massive changes on the way. I can only hope they have equal Cons for -all- aspects of the game.

Good luck Yicky.

.

Whats funny is a GM in game told me im delusional. +1 for customer support!?

[SaintYsolt]

I miss you guys

How about missing any old tribe..........stranger?

[TimmmmaaaaH]

The only skill I really like and use on the moors armor is removal of wounds, poisons, etc when using SoS with the minstrel healing set. Although I would much rather acquire armor through the moors and comms than run BoE style instances a hundred times and get half of every jewel I need but never all of them. And BofE is quick dirty but gets old after a while. The moors seldom gets too old. With the level cap increase maybe boost the starting levels of audacity for both sides?

I am not aiming this post at you, it just starts with addressing your post.

The issue with Audacity armour is not set bonuses. It is that you take 30% less damage and are CC'd for 50% less time. That is an absurd advantage that any established player has over a new player or new alt. Like Sazh said it makes new characters total fodder until you suffer through your collection of commendations and become mildly competitive. A 13 audacity r0 is still fodder. It is a ridiculous system that has no place in a pvp zone and other contemporary mmo's have had the same issues with it (SWTOR for a recent example with expertise).

I know it was an attempt to create a "season" type of pvp environment but if the season lasts until the next level increase then that concept doesn't hold. Effectively anyone who attempts to pvp with a new character after the first month of an expansion (being very generous) is entirely uncompetitive. Yes you can win fights without audacity. Not without being a more skilled player than your opponent, which isnt likely to be the case for a new player.

The costs for the first 7 ranks of audacity currently are the maximum I think is reasonable all the way to 13 for both creeps and freeps. Costing nothing would be the preferable option but like I said in my other post, baby steps. I would be totally fine with audacity armour not being available outside the ettenmoors as well.

[lionoil]

@Yicky, interesting enough, ill participate in giving feedback, although atm its pointless. However, if you believe its not pointless, then take this point up with them.

Audacity armour

Ah yes, Audacity. Ive got some thoughts and ideas I know will work for the good of Pvmp, but firstly, how on earth do I get Turbine to listen - and I have no idea what they're planning, which means its highly unlikely they'll throw out there current plans for Pvmp in favor of what im about to write.

*Pvmp currency in commendations is great and shouldnt changed, because it causes a grind within the moors for the moors: which means more game time.

*But Audacity should be removed on the obvious grounds that its unfair and a slap in the face for pve raiders.

*Simply make more ways to spend commendations...anything, anything at all. Make a Champion weapon look like a shovel and people will buy it, anything and everything stupid for lols and people will grind 7k comms for it.

*More options: make at least 6 different set bonuses for each class that dont make characters overpowered, but provide different options. More options = happier players.
*examples not perfectly balanced, but they're basic ideas*
Example: Hunters strength of earth channel skill adds 5% mitigation per tick for 20% total for 10 seconds. Considering how fragile it's to get off (still 1 hit interrupt?) its not going to be overpowered, but it can be useful in different situations.
Example2: LMs Inner flame gives +40% run speed(which simply negates BA hinder making the freep run normal). This is only useful if traited, easily interrupted and has 20m range. +40% can be very useful is used correctly in dire situations.
Example3: LMs Burning embers has a chance to hit aoe targets if they're on Tar, but LMs fire-lore and wind-lore cannot be used.

Players with pve gear usually do more dps, but giving pvp players more options to try different ideas and tempt them into grinding comms is the key. Good example is Rainithri-1 who currently uses pve gear for max dps. The goal is to tempt him into using different gear for different options so he spends more time actually having fun testing different styles instead of 2 options.

As for creeps its different, but the fact is im not the only person who loves killing shiny freeps with there silly new toys.

[tkroll]

I am not aiming this post at you, it just starts with addressing your post.

The issue with Audacity armour is not set bonuses. It is that you take 30% less damage and are CC'd for 50% less time. That is an absurd advantage that any established player has over a new player or new alt. Like Sazh said it makes new characters total fodder until you suffer through your collection of commendations and become mildly competitive. A 13 audacity r0 is still fodder. It is a ridiculous system that has no place in a pvp zone and other contemporary mmo's have had the same issues with it (SWTOR for a recent example with expertise).

I know it was an attempt to create a "season" type of pvp environment but if the season lasts until the next level increase then that concept doesn't hold. Effectively anyone who attempts to pvp with a new character after the first month of an expansion (being very generous) is entirely uncompetitive. Yes you can win fights without audacity. Not without being a more skilled player than your opponent, which isnt likely to be the case for a new player.

The costs for the first 7 ranks of audacity currently are the maximum I think is reasonable all the way to 13 for both creeps and freeps. Costing nothing would be the preferable option but like I said in my other post, baby steps. I would be totally fine with audacity armour not being available outside the ettenmoors as well.

I would much rather see a system where you would acquire skills (similar to the daoc realm ranks) rather than armor and buffs. Yes those skills could be used outside of pvmp or pvp but they wouldn't be complete deal breakers if not present (like the lack of audacity often is). I brought a champ to moors with no audacity and she was fodder for a few weeks. Same happened when I poked my nose out after RoR. If that SoS bonus wasn't on the moors armor I'd probably be using hybolt or something else, but as you pointed out none of that is effective enough to compete in the Ettenmoors now.

I always thought the aud armor was just to try and give (or force) the freeps something to acquire. Didn't care for the early moors sets at all, preferred the rift or moria gear. Aside from LI's, offhand weapons, or some rings there isn't any real reward for going to the moors aside from the armor...but I would much rather come out with a nice weapon than armor that wouldn't be useful elsewhere.

[tkroll]

*Simply make more ways to spend commendations...anything, anything at all. Make a Champion weapon look like a shovel and people will buy it, anything and everything stupid for lols and people will grind 7k comms for it.

Ya ever seen Blazing Saddles? Taggart will tell you shovels are OP.......

[TimmmmaaaaH]

I would much rather see a system where you would acquire skills (similar to the daoc realm ranks) rather than armor and buffs. Yes those skills could be used outside of pvmp or pvp but they wouldn't be complete deal breakers if not present (like the lack of audacity often is). I brought a champ to moors with no audacity and she was fodder for a few weeks. Same happened when I poked my nose out after RoR. If that SoS bonus wasn't on the moors armor I'd probably be using hybolt or something else, but as you pointed out none of that is effective enough to compete in the Ettenmoors now.

I always thought the aud armor was just to try and give (or force) the freeps something to acquire. Didn't care for the early moors sets at all, preferred the rift or moria gear. Aside from LI's, offhand weapons, or some rings there isn't any real reward for going to the moors aside from the armor...but I would much rather come out with a nice weapon than armor that wouldn't be useful elsewhere.

*But Audacity should be removed on the obvious grounds that its unfair and a slap in the face for pve raiders.

No.

Audacity armour was never introduced to "slap pve raiders in the face" (lol) or to provide armour sets with good set bonuses for PvE. The latter is simply the usual poor itemisation where players can identify what set bonus is best but the developers apparently cant. Audacity sets were introduced to limit stats on freeps as the stats on high end raid gear was (is) too high. As you note with Rainithir, using PvE sets is a significant dps boost on top of freeps already high dps.

I think the idea behind audacity is sound (limiting freep stats, acquiring pvp armour through pvp). I just think the implementation is lacking. PvP is, as often noted by Turbine, a side show to PvE. Turbine doesn't want PvP armour being easy to aquire because then people would settle for it and not grind out the PvE sets. Just lock PvP sets to the Ettenmoors and make it exponentially cheaper than it is now (for both sides). That ignores a lot of other issues with audacity (like the power reductions making fights last forever) but it goes a long way to levelling the playing field for new players which is something the game sorely needs.

I agree with needing more uses for commendations though. After grinding out your audacity (and being commendation starved) you end up with nothing to use them on.

[lionoil]

No.Audacity armour was never introduced to "slap pve raiders in the face" (lol) or to provide armour sets with good set bonuses for PvE.

You read incorrectly, and didnt understand what I ment.
I didnt say Audactiy was introduced to slap pve raiders. But in effect Players who pve end game raids gain gear thats worthless (for the most part) because of Audacity. So in effect, audacity says to the pve raider, your gear from pve means nothing although you worked hard for it, grind some more for pvp gear. So its unfair for the new comers, and unfair for the dedicated raiders because the time invest for gear is meaningless if you have 1 audacity.

[spelunker]

I agree with needing more uses for commendations though. After grinding out your audacity (and being commendation starved) you end up with nothing to use them on.

this, this, and more this. I bought skins for my warg and reaver I never intend to use, simply to get rid of the overcap notification as I think its lags me a bit more than normal.

Creepside: introduce the equivalent of trail food, for +morale or +plus damage (very small numbers here, the freep equivalents are only good for 1-2%).
more good skins. Make the buffs expire on death and this will be a true comms sink.
MAPS for comms. Grinding out map deeds is PvE, and a requisite to being fully effective in a PvP zone, on a PvP specific character. This doesn't add up, just let the maps be bartered for by those people who have been there, done that so they don't have to farm their 1 billionth sapling for grimwood.

Freepside: possibilities are endless, but pretty much anything related to LIs, scrolls of empowerment, delving, relics, damage type titles, jewelry options, actual cloak options, food, dyes, etc.

[vip123]

Creepside: introduce the equivalent of trail food, for +morale or +plus damage

MAPS for comms. Grinding out map deeds is PvE, and a requisite to being fully effective in a PvP zone, on a PvP specific character. This doesn't add up, just let the maps be bartered for by those people who have been there, done that so they don't have to farm their 1 billionth sapling for grimwood.

Freepside: possibilities are endless, but pretty much anything related to LIs, scrolls of empowerment, delving, relics, damage type titles, jewelry options, actual cloak options, food, dyes, etc.

[TimmmmaaaaH]

You read incorrectly, and didnt understand what I ment.
I didnt say Audactiy was introduced to slap pve raiders. But in effect Players who pve end game raids gain gear thats worthless (for the most part) because of Audacity. So in effect, audacity says to the pve raider, your gear from pve means nothing although you worked hard for it, grind some more for pvp gear. So its unfair for the new comers, and unfair for the dedicated raiders because the time invest for gear is meaningless if you have 1 audacity.

This is exactly the point though. Whether a player has done PvE raids is totally irrelevant (and should be) to their effectiveness and preparedness for PvP. Like I said, the concept of PvP armour earnt through PvP is (in my opinion) a perfectly sound one. It is just the orders of magnitude too high grind that makes the Audacity system unworkable in its current state. There should be a move to make time investment less relevant to PvP effectiveness, not to just transfer it to a different barter currency. It isn't a slap in the face to raiders because a player being a raider or not is entirely irrelevant when they are PvPing and not PvEing. Obviously due to jewelery and FA items this is not entirely accurate but it would be better to move closer to a level playing field than further. I also should stress that I am talking about both sides acquiring Audacity much more easily not just freeps. There is just a lot more factors on freepside.

[lionoil]

This is exactly the point though. Whether a player has done PvE raids is totally irrelevant (and should be) to their effectiveness and preparedness for PvP. Like I said, the concept of PvP armour earnt through PvP is (in my opinion) a perfectly sound one. It is just the orders of magnitude too high grind that makes the Audacity system unworkable in its current state. There should be a move to make time investment less relevant to PvP effectiveness, not to just transfer it to a different barter currency. It isn't a slap in the face to raiders because a player being a raider or not is entirely irrelevant when they are PvPing and not PvEing. Obviously due to jewelery and FA items this is not entirely accurate but it would be better to move closer to a level playing field than further. I also should stress that I am talking about both sides acquiring Audacity much more easily not just freeps. There is just a lot more factors on freepside.

Yes, it should be irrelevant, I agree, yet also allow players to become pvp ready faster.

So what's left for freeps and creeps to spend comms on?
Deso has mentioned some ideas, and I would go even further to get ~6 skills per creep class boosted in different ways costing comms and maybe requiring a stage progression. But the end result isnt OP, but another option in your toon so the time you've invested is rewarded. The nature of this grind is different from BFP reward since the thought of rank X makes people not want to play, whereas this concept would provide a individual customization and reward getting players excited.

Similar for freepside, instead of ~6 skills, make 6 armor sets or w/e that can be used to further customize your toons. Basically, more options is your reward for time invested. These options then complete your characters theme. Giving my old school LM a 4/6set bonus that adds a buff or debuff on SS would complete my toon and id gladly save heaps of comms to get it. End result, a happy camper that isnt OP but the set complements a style.

[EmyrSelyf]

Bieng polite is a 2 way street were not here to be friends with devs/gm's were here to enjoy a video game and pvp that has been destroyed not improved by these devs who cant take criticism but have time to code a bloody bird and tree into the game that does nothing but prove my point about them and thier competence in general.

I wish you luck in trying to improve the moors but realistically its been 5 years of not listening to us. I think this is a buttering up attempt imho to make people feel like thier listened to.

If they really cared about the moors they would at least apoligize about lying about that bloody new pvmp map that never came.

I'm very disappointed with the lack of emphasis that has been given us, but never NEVER under appreciate the bird...... Someday it might finally fight back. I don't know if the things Yicky has done will make a huge difference. I do believe he will always give it an extreme effort. These devs obviously have limited time. If they want to work on PvMP that probably limits their time even more. They probably don't have time to wade through all the trash I post. I think having someone who is obviously heavily invested in PvMP like Yicky talking to people who can actually make changes _has_ to have some positive effect. I haven't given up on them injecting new life into the Moors just yet, (although I imagine right now is probably chaos incarnate for them so I'm not expecting to see anything right off).

[Thorandril]

this is about the only meaningful constructive input I care to waste my time on, other than banal rhetoric that reflects on the game itself as a whole. I don't have the desire I once had to tell you how to fix a broken system, just to point out and emphasize that it is indeed broken.

[trollhardorgohome]

this is about the only meaningful constructive input I care to waste my time on, other than banal rhetoric that reflects on the game itself as a whole. I don't have the desire I once had to tell you how to fix a broken system, just to point out and emphasize that it is indeed broken.

This^

All i can say is, stop making changes that NO-ONE asks for!! Especially when it comes to limiting game-play options

[tkroll]

I'm very disappointed with the lack of emphasis that has been given us, but never NEVER under appreciate the bird...... Someday it might finally fight back.

The bird scored 9900 damage to your morale with Ha I pooped on you. Your armor is now permanently soiled.

Can't complain about the bird- its wonderful for comedic effect when someone in your raid is pissed because she can't kill it. But if we say we like the bird to much they'll give us a roving flock of crebain....all with the skill I'll Poke Your Eye Out.

But you are right about time limits for the moors. The devs still treat it as an afterthought, or something to deal with when they get the chance. And generally their solutions always seem to follow along the line of ever increasing buffs, damage, mitigation, bubbles.... kind of like always building a bigger nuke...