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  1. #1
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    Council visiting Turbine

    Hey Strangers...

    Just tossing this out here for you guys. Obviously I have my own feedback which I have been working on during the council term...but still a lot of work to be done. Figured either this wasn't seen, or it was passed over.

    But if you guys DO have ideas, feedback (actual feedback) that you think is worth talking about...let me know.


    https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...siting-Turbine!

    Seven members of the LOTRO Players Council will be flying to Boston on Thursday October 31, 2013 for a day of meetings with the LOTRO team. We’ll be covering everything from community to localization and development plans to customer service issues. They’ll have time to sit with every team involved with the game during groups sessions and then they’ll have an opportunity to sit down with the team of their choice to see how the game is made and take part in even more detailed discussions with those teams. We’ll also be taking their feedback for ways to improve the Players Council for 2014.

    The Council members who will be attending are:

    Aestiliat
    Delmore
    Emyrselyf
    Palentian
    Runesi_EU
    Visionseer
    Zume



    Of course we’ll be sharing photos and comments with the entire community throughout the day via our social media channels. We’re finishing up some of the details of their visit and ways the entire community can be involved, but for now please feel free to reach out to any of the council members and ask them to share your thoughts and concerns with us during their visit.

    Yicky(R13) Weaver - Now Brandywiner{LOTRO Player Council member}
    The Witch Kings Seventh Legion
    Bubblez - Defiler
    The Black Appendage of Sauron - Leader
    www.theblackappendage.com/monstermanual

  2. #2
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    Quote: feedback for ways to improve the Players Council for 2014.

    Seems they're going to introduce you to members of Turbine and show you how its made, but not necessarily asking for player input for ways to improve.

    If I had something to raise it would be: Prove to me they factor player input at-the-same-time as their new ideas, instead of factoring player input after they've already decided, which makes player input obsolete and irreverent.
    Key word, prove. This would be proven if they ask players right now about the upcoming changes in the expansion after HD. Because if they asked for input right now about HD, they're not going to alter whats already been decided, making player input pointless.

  3. #3
    Maybe you should bring turbine around to caring about PvMP again with baby steps. How about starting with fixing simple bugs and exploits that have been around for a long time:

    **Webbed the Earth bug**
    **Pets following stealthed players bug**
    **War Leader rez bug**
    **War Leader "power of fear" skill failure to provide a no-induction heal bug**
    **NPC turning on their own side bug**
    **Sticky gourd bug**
    **Keep auto flip bug**
    **OP flipping to delving after capture bug**
    **OP CGs constant reset bug**
    **Invisible walls/bridges bug**
    **Isendeep OP delving NPCs failure to change sides after flip bug**
    **Relic drop from broken legs & CC combo bug**

    **Festival map exploit**
    **Rend flesh/devastating blow exploit**
    **Accessing delving door from within the OP exploit**
    **Freeps accessing sniper locations only accessible with mounts exploit**
    **Freeps force taunting center delving boss into lava to reset progress exploit**

    **99 bugs/exploits sure to come with HD**

    These are just to name a few. However, their lack of attention is demonstrative of their lack of care. Use these simple things as a litmus test as to whether or not you're wasting your time with the player council.
    Last edited by Nidagnest; Oct 25 2013 at 01:40 AM.
    ~Bocagrande~

  4. #4
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    Flown in to visit..? I sure have missed some bits of this. Must check. I've been droning on about spending in areas outside the core expertise, you could perhaps push some buttons and see if there's a real answer to what the core business currently is.

  5. #5
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    Two suggestions come to mind Yicky:

    a) In the player suggestions forum, perhaps have a voting module applied to each player suggestion in order to gauge player interest in given suggestion.

    b) Could we please see some more bluename forum engagement with the community? Many of the class forums have had either no apparent engagement with the class devs, or an introductory post several years ago and nothing since. This suggestion is borne from the frustration that Turbine have a multitude of channels for players to engage with Turbine (FB, Twitter, Forums, Palantir, Council, Beta participation (when relevant)), yet there is a seeming reticence on the part of any Turbine employee (excepting Sapience) to engage with the community. Perhaps Sapience requires minions?
    Elendilmir: Southern Cross Kinship
    Freeps: Scruffodian; Scruffbeard; Scruffeldor; Scruffynerf; Scruffwulf; Scruffystone; Scruffiness; Scruffphor; Scruffward
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  6. #6
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    1) Remove Outpost mastery buffs, make it inf/ren gain if you have to but not something that affects combat.
    2) Make keep backdoors usable only out of combat.

    Hundred other things that are in need of fixing but babysteps. Those two things negatively impact my time in the Ettenmoors often and surely cannot be difficult to change.

    I have close to zero faith that Turbine is going to act on any of this feedback but we do what we can.
    [RIGHT][SIZE=2][COLOR=#ffa07a]Babou + Tyrannosaurus [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=3][SIZE=2]/ [/SIZE][COLOR=#afeeee][SIZE=2]Zapdos[/SIZE]
    [/COLOR][/SIZE][B][COLOR=#ee82ee][SIZE=3]Acta Non Verba[/SIZE][/COLOR][/B][/RIGHT]

  7. #7
    Address some of the lingering bugs that are misused and turned into exploits in pve and pvp, such at pet /follow as mentioned above (a more pvp specific one).
    Address some of the monster player concerns with solo balance.
    Some of the freep skills that have no use/abused in pvmp that should be removed/changed with the "monster play" buff as previous iterations with hunter DF.
    Some of the graphic glitches/problems we experience even in low traffic areas, reduced awareness...
    Better communication within the venues provided, especially forums, with developers.
    Proper methods of customer service and a way to see our input is being addressed.

    These are just a few that continue to be issues and never get recognized by Turbine/WB as issues. They are often swept under the rug and ignored, or blatantly deleted to not create problem.
    ~Anaxander R9 Warden, Baranthor R5 Hunter, Skartan R2 Guardian~ Elendilmir
    ~Karukh R10 Warg, Prisonshank R6 Reaver~ Elendilmir
    **Mac User**

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nidagnest View Post

    **Invisible walls/bridges bug**


    **Festival map exploit**

    I was under the impression that both of these were fixed...

  9. #9
    Sapience is offline Former Community Manager & Harbinger of Soon
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    Quote Originally Posted by lionoil View Post
    Quote: feedback for ways to improve the Players Council for 2014.

    Seems they're going to introduce you to members of Turbine and show you how its made, but not necessarily asking for player input for ways to improve.
    Actually that's a partial quote.
    The full quote is,
    We’ll also be taking their feedback for ways to improve the Players Council for 2014.
    Also. As in "in addition to".

    In addition to what you ask?

    We’ll be covering everything from community to localization and development plans to customer service issues. They’ll have time to sit with every team involved with the game during groups sessions and then they’ll have an opportunity to sit down with the team of their choice to see how the game is made and take part in even more detailed discussions with those teams.
    Sounds like a tremendous amount of feedback is being looked for.

  10. #10
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    The problem isnt gathering info and looking at it. The problem is you do nothing with the info. It took you 5 years to understand and realize rank farming and to do something about it. The biggest issue 5 years going is lag and you somehow improve the lag i dont know how but you actually improved the lag LOL.

    Heres a summary of the last 5 years sapience

    mines of moria (promised a new pvmp map)
    siege of mirkwood (promised a new pvmp map)
    You spend time adding a bird and new tree
    the "new" moors moving 2 rez points and some outposts around and adding new buffs thats cause 100 times the lag is not an improvement and its not a new pvmp map.

    The pvmp'rs didnt ask for a new even more lagged out moors then ever before. We asked for a new pvmp map that promised 2 times over and didnt deliver.

    We needed this player council 5 years ago not when the game is on its last legs here.

    P.s sapience can you explain to me why helms deeps is 12 man and rift is 24 man? It gives the appearance that the rift is a bigger threat in middle earth then helms deep. 12 man is not epic or a huge battle.



    Quote Originally Posted by Sapience View Post
    Actually that's a partial quote.
    The full quote is,


    Also. As in "in addition to".

    In addition to what you ask?



    Sounds like a tremendous amount of feedback is being looked for.

  11. #11
    Sapience is offline Former Community Manager & Harbinger of Soon
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    Quote Originally Posted by DHargrave View Post
    P.s sapience can you explain to me why helms deeps is 12 man and rift is 24 man? It gives the appearance that the rift is a bigger threat in middle earth then helms deep. 12 man is not epic or a huge battle.
    I can absolutely explain that to you. It's because you're wrong. The Rift is a 12 person raid.

  12. #12
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    maybe now it is lol back then it wasnt ive done it back then when it was 24 if its 12 now thats not any better thats a downgrade. Like i said 12 man is not epic or huge in comparison to 24 "back then". Out of everything i wrote thats what you pick out eh LOL. How about those freeps on invisible horses i see all the time
    Last edited by DHargrave; Oct 25 2013 at 04:50 PM.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by DHargrave View Post
    maybe now it is lol back then it wasnt ive done it back then when it was 24 if its 12 now thats not any better thats a downgrade. Like i said 12 man is not epic or huge in comparison to 24 "back then".
    The Rift was always 12-man.

    -Bel
    Belnavar - Captain - 105 - Brandywine - Leader of Keepers of the Palantiri

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belnavar View Post
    The Rift was always 12-man.

    -Bel
    There have only been 2 pieces of PvE content which supported 24 men

    Helegrod, and Draigoch.
    Crell-L85-Champion - Riddermark ; Swego-L85-Burglar ; Kotvi-L95-Runekeeper
    Delego-L85 Hunter ; Stodden-L51-Captain ; Edhul-L61-Loremaster
    Deglorion - SoA XP Disabler

  15. #15
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    LOL even if true thats not any better. Helms deep should be 24 man not 12 man

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by DHargrave View Post
    LOL even if true thats not any better. Helms deep should be 24 man not 12 man
    Well, it is true, and it's what you used to support your argument.

    LOTRO has had very little 24-man content, and it generally gets run a lot less than 12-man content (in fact, I don't recall anyone running Draigoch with 24 players since shortly after it launched). There would be little point in making content designed for a target group that few would avail of. I'd rather see additional 12-man raids instead.

    -Bel
    Belnavar - Captain - 105 - Brandywine - Leader of Keepers of the Palantiri

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapience View Post
    I can absolutely explain that to you. It's because you're wrong. The Rift is a 12 person raid.
    LOL he had ya there Harg

    Bout the only thing I can throw up here that I don't think has found its way up here is bring back the time limit for logging a creep after bringing your freep to the moors. It was half an hour originally I believe.

    Instead of completely eliminating the mastery buffs for OPs (the elimination idea doesn't bother me too much) apply diminishing returns to them. So after say two outpost the benefits for the next two are drastically reduced by side possessing them... Not sure how effective it would be but it is one to keep the mechanic going. Though I expect you'll find many more here who favor the return of the old hotspots instead of OPS.

    A lot of folks on E really miss Syl- its been almost a year and his absence is still felt throughout the community. It would be nice to put a flag or marker down by the ford south of west ta bridge (some of us still call it rock rock).

    It may not be possible but I think it would be fun for the players to fortify (repair) the keeps and have to use siege weapons either to take down a wall or a door. It would be a big change for the moors but might be a lot of fun if done right. Having a big castle with no door... seems silly.

    Enjoy your time in Boston Yicky. Make sure you bring back incriminating evidence (pictures) of any misbehavior...
    A cosmos without the Doctor scarcely bears thinking about- The Master

  18. #18
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    i remember doing rift 24 man LOL was awhile ago but it what i remember. The point is though that 12 isnt a huge battle 24 man is. This is helms deep think in terms if it was the movie you only have 12 people fighting that entire orc raid hell in the movie there was that entire town and more then that even.

    why dont they give xp in the moors like gw2 yet? hello be nice be lot better then grinding boulders to level
    Last edited by DHargrave; Oct 25 2013 at 05:33 PM.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by DHargrave View Post
    i remember doing rift 24 man LOL was awhile ago but it what i remember.
    You are probably remembering Helegrod (and likely only the Dragon Wing, since it has been split for some time), not the Rift. The Rift was never 24-man. Here are the original patch notes from October, 2007, when the Rift was added to the game:

    "And… introducing a new level 50 epic 12-player raid: The Rift of Nûrz Ghâshu In the far northeast corner of Angmar, the Angmarim in their desperation have opened a long-sealed door and begun mining for obsidian and iron in a place simply known as The Rift. They have uncovered long since forgotten tales and evils. The Rangers of Gath Forthnír, led by the Elf-lord Iorelen, are now keeping tabs on this expedition and need your help!"

    Source: http://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Patc...ober_25th_2007
    Quote Originally Posted by DHargrave View Post
    The point is though that 12 isnt a huge battle 24 man is. This is helms deep think in terms if it was the movie you only have 12 people fighting that entire orc raid hell in the movie there was that entire town and more then that even.
    Technically 24 people isn't all that huge either. I think the scale of the Helm's Deep experience will be created with NPCs and mobs.

    -Bel
    Belnavar - Captain - 105 - Brandywine - Leader of Keepers of the Palantiri

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by lionoil View Post
    Quote: feedback for ways to improve the Players Council for 2014.

    Seems they're going to introduce you to members of Turbine and show you how its made, but not necessarily asking for player input for ways to improve.

    If I had something to raise it would be: Prove to me they factor player input at-the-same-time as their new ideas, instead of factoring player input after they've already decided, which makes player input obsolete and irreverent.
    Key word, prove. This would be proven if they ask players right now about the upcoming changes in the expansion after HD. Because if they asked for input right now about HD, they're not going to alter whats already been decided, making player input pointless.
    Of course the people that have worked the council will help improve it. Why would they not want to get feedback about how the council has worked over the last months. I have plenty of feedback there. Good and bad

    Quote Originally Posted by Nidagnest View Post
    Maybe you should bring turbine around to caring about PvMP again with baby steps. How about starting with fixing simple bugs and exploits that have been around for a long time:

    **Webbed the Earth bug**
    **Pets following stealthed players bug**
    **War Leader rez bug**
    **War Leader "power of fear" skill failure to provide a no-induction heal bug**
    **NPC turning on their own side bug**
    **Sticky gourd bug**
    **Keep auto flip bug**
    **OP flipping to delving after capture bug**
    **OP CGs constant reset bug**
    **Invisible walls/bridges bug**
    **Isendeep OP delving NPCs failure to change sides after flip bug**
    **Relic drop from broken legs & CC combo bug**

    **Festival map exploit**
    **Rend flesh/devastating blow exploit**
    **Accessing delving door from within the OP exploit**
    **Freeps accessing sniper locations only accessible with mounts exploit**
    **Freeps force taunting center delving boss into lava to reset progress exploit**

    **99 bugs/exploits sure to come with HD**

    These are just to name a few. However, their lack of attention is demonstrative of their lack of care. Use these simple things as a litmus test as to whether or not you're wasting your time with the player council.
    Not sure how much I can say here...but I will say you are under the assumption that it is not being talked about. But jotted these down

    Quote Originally Posted by Scruffynerf View Post
    Two suggestions come to mind Yicky:

    a) In the player suggestions forum, perhaps have a voting module applied to each player suggestion in order to gauge player interest in given suggestion.

    b) Could we please see some more bluename forum engagement with the community? Many of the class forums have had either no apparent engagement with the class devs, or an introductory post several years ago and nothing since. This suggestion is borne from the frustration that Turbine have a multitude of channels for players to engage with Turbine (FB, Twitter, Forums, Palantir, Council, Beta participation (when relevant)), yet there is a seeming reticence on the part of any Turbine employee (excepting Sapience) to engage with the community. Perhaps Sapience requires minions?
    There is a reason for this...That I have witnessed first hand and taken. The blue names have cut back on forum interaction(especially on the pvp side) due to the fact that they get nothing but reamed on the forums. For each helpful post there are 10 posts that chastise and abuse the blue name as soon as they speak. I even hopped into a thread once and I got verbally pulverized to the point that Sapience had to stop me

    I cannot say that they will or will not post often anymore. When it comes to PVP, the community is the most outspoken and passionate in all of LOTRO. Unfortunately the filter regarding that is typically left at the door which causes the blue names to read...but not post.

    Quote Originally Posted by TimmmmaaaaH View Post
    1) Remove Outpost mastery buffs, make it inf/ren gain if you have to but not something that affects combat.
    2) Make keep backdoors usable only out of combat.

    Hundred other things that are in need of fixing but babysteps. Those two things negatively impact my time in the Ettenmoors often and surely cannot be difficult to change.

    I have close to zero faith that Turbine is going to act on any of this feedback but we do what we can.
    agreed. The mastery buffs looked good on paper but they swayed the moors too much. I don't know if removing them completely is best. But I would definitely agree that there needs to be a change with the outposts. I was looking at making PVP a bit more dynamic and fun. Have some ideas to that which are pvp and pve geared. Don't know when or if it would happen. But can always hope

    Quote Originally Posted by AaronIU View Post
    Address some of the lingering bugs that are misused and turned into exploits in pve and pvp, such at pet /follow as mentioned above (a more pvp specific one).
    Address some of the monster player concerns with solo balance.
    Some of the freep skills that have no use/abused in pvmp that should be removed/changed with the "monster play" buff as previous iterations with hunter DF.
    Some of the graphic glitches/problems we experience even in low traffic areas, reduced awareness...
    Better communication within the venues provided, especially forums, with developers.
    Proper methods of customer service and a way to see our input is being addressed.

    These are just a few that continue to be issues and never get recognized by Turbine/WB as issues. They are often swept under the rug and ignored, or blatantly deleted to not create problem.
    awesome thanks! I'm not overly familiar with solo..but I know another council member that is...and feel free to toss me some more specific ideas either on this thread or via PM so I can get a better idea on where to go with it

    Quote Originally Posted by Sapience View Post
    Actually that's a partial quote.
    The full quote is,


    Also. As in "in addition to".

    In addition to what you ask?



    Sounds like a tremendous amount of feedback is being looked for.

    Still looking forward to next week?

    Yicky(R13) Weaver - Now Brandywiner{LOTRO Player Council member}
    The Witch Kings Seventh Legion
    Bubblez - Defiler
    The Black Appendage of Sauron - Leader
    www.theblackappendage.com/monstermanual

  21. #21
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    annnd.... +1 for the derail

    I miss you guys

    Yicky(R13) Weaver - Now Brandywiner{LOTRO Player Council member}
    The Witch Kings Seventh Legion
    Bubblez - Defiler
    The Black Appendage of Sauron - Leader
    www.theblackappendage.com/monstermanual

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapience View Post
    Sounds like a tremendous amount of feedback is being looked for.
    Dear Sapience,
    Thank you for addressing my reply, but may I urge you to look at what im asking, since its been a problem for many beta testers who've tried to help Turbine in the past and afterall they went through, threw in the towel and left. This is because you already have plans for the moors -right now- for the upcoming update, but if I tell you an idea without knowing what your about to change and alter, my words are totally pointless.

    For example(and hypothetically speaking) if I say: Warleaders need more mitigation. But next update your lowering the DPS of all Freeps anyway, that means my comment is meaningless. If I know your altering the Freeps dps, I wouldnt ask for something your already doing. But then for example you DO actually listen to the majority who are screaming for high Warleader mitigation, and you make the changes to let the majority know your listening - then it causes a massive problem in Pvmp.
    This example is extremely relevant because Turbine has in the past overcompensated on an issue, and instead of changing the under-powered into - balanced, they make it overpowered, or: make overpowered into under-powered.

    -Without players being able to see your cards about upcoming changes feedback is pointless. Im not that ignorant to think the simple suggests made in PvMP forms is where the real decisions are being made. And considering there are levels above Beta testing, and another testing server above that - also how Turbine make plans on paper outside the game means player input is quiet trivial. *Player input needs to be relevant to what changes your thinking of as well, otherwise its simply trivial. As you see, half of the comments here are just insulting Turbine about bugs, because thats how they see player feedback in the eyes of Turbine, trivial and pointless so they mock it.

    Now, im just a scrub number to you, and my opinion means the same as the mad hatter next to me, so as if my one line of feedback is going to stand out in your decisions more then the next mad hatter. One person can say, Apples, next Pears, but they're all the same and yet some people like myself or Zapdos who're smart should be actually listened to so the Moors is made better. Problem is, show me your notes, and ill comment on what your about to do, and prove to me you'll listen. Im telling you this because I know several who cannot take Turbines cooperation approach towards player feedback.

    So it's totally pointless for me to just throw in my 2cents if your not going to consider it when your long term plans, since I have no clue what your about to do. Im probably one of the few on E who've killed the unkillable on E in a team setting, but I know my comments mean the same as Gando, and that's just hilarious.

    Lastly and 100% factually: Nothing I say is relevant until the freep changes take effect. Every time you make a new expansion the entire moors balance and mechanics are totally thrown out the window. The only thing I can say that you will listen to is, dah give me something new. Thats about it. You-are-not going to alter what you've already planned because some trolls on the forums asked for it.
    Last edited by lionoil; Oct 25 2013 at 08:08 PM.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by DHargrave View Post
    Hargrave.
    Hey it really is you.

  24. #24
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    like i said the problem isnt compiling information. It shouldnt have taken them 5 years to adress rank farming. Maybe in 5 years theyll realize theyve succeeded in creating better lag? If thier still here that is? Were just gonna ignore that like that new pvmp map though and heres a bird and tree and were gonna move some stuff around in the moors to make you feel like we care but really were gonna give you 100 times the lag enjoy!

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Delmore View Post
    annnd.... +1 for the derail

    I miss you guys
    @Yicky.
    I want you to ask them directly about this.
    When they release notes saying 'class X' getting 'skill A.' Then members of the community talk about it, then 'skill A' is never implemented. I want you to ask them what factors made them change.

    Questions
    1)What requirements are factored into getting something altered? There MUST BE factors, so what are they, I want you to find out.

    2)Community out cry is NOT the only factor, if it was, we'd have a new Moors map already, true? So please remember that. What OTHER factors do they consider.

    3) Which factors are most valued.

    P.S - I expect a reply on all 3 questions.
    Last edited by lionoil; Oct 25 2013 at 09:00 PM.

 

 
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