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  1. #1
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    Jkgorn vs Kidefence

    Today on Elendilmir GLFF, Jkgorn champion of the illustrious A N V claimed superiority over Kidefence champion of ANV. Jkgorn attributed Kidefence's success to macro swap and said in the words of Ocrack "He outpreforms" Kidefence without gear swap...

    thoughts?

  2. #2
    While this dispute may not be easily resolved, it is a certainty that either would destroy the coward Tybolt in 3 moves or less.

  3. #3
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    Victory through spamhealing, comrades!
    "death is nothing to us, for when we are.. death has not come. And when death has finally come, we are not"
    R7 Spider/R11 Reaver - R13/R11 Champion

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Isindar View Post
    Victory through spamhealing, comrades!
    Because gearswapping for the same potency..arguable more morale than spam healing for a victory is much more honorable.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sampras View Post
    Because gearswapping for the same potency..arguable more morale than spam healing for a victory is much more honorable.
    1 button or 6 buttons, I wonder which requires more effort? Not to mention the free cure. You sound smart.

    edit: not to mention the swaps typically account for 1 bracing attack, not 10. derp.
    Last edited by Isindar; Dec 10 2013 at 12:50 PM.
    "death is nothing to us, for when we are.. death has not come. And when death has finally come, we are not"
    R7 Spider/R11 Reaver - R13/R11 Champion

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Isindar View Post
    You sound smart.
    You don't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Isindar View Post
    1 button or 6 buttons, I wonder which requires more effort? Not to mention the free cure. You sound smart.

    edit: not to mention the swaps typically account for 1 bracing attack, not 10. derp.
    Reading comprehension classes might come in handy. Effort has nothing to do with using an unneeded advantage in the easiest updates back to back for champs to date. Swapping progressively from 20k to 8k morale is leagues ahead advantage-wise than a champ using bracing repeatedly off cd, and no the amount of swaps we're talking about account for more than 1 measly bracing.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Sampras View Post
    Reading comprehension classes might come in handy. Effort has nothing to do with using an unneeded advantage in the easiest updates back to back for champs to date. Swapping progressively from 20k to 8k morale is leagues ahead advantage-wise than a champ using bracing repeatedly off cd, and no the amount of swaps we're talking about account for more than 1 measly bracing.
    Aside from making up completely false numbers, would you care to explain why you think any of this is the case? I'm having a hard time even coming up with fake arguments that would support what you've said here, never mind ones that follow any sense of logic.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    Aside from making up completely false numbers
    Now that I've actually checked, the actual values are 18k to 10k morale setup. Not off base at all.
    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    would you care to explain why you think any of this is the case?
    I shouldn't need to explain why using bracing attack is less potent than gear swapping progressively from a tank to glass cannon setup. I wish you luck in your future brainstorming endeavors.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Sampras View Post
    Now that I've actually checked, the actual values are 18k to 10k morale setup. Not off base at all.
    50% margin of error, you should work for the NSA.
    I shouldn't need to explain why using bracing attack is less potent than gear swapping progressively from a tank to glass cannon setup. I wish you luck in your future brainstorming endeavors.
    Maybe you shouldn't, but nonetheless I'm asking you to.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    50% margin of error, you should work for the NSA.
    Congratulations, you can do basic Algebra. Critical thinking on the other hand..

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Sampras View Post
    Congratulations, you can do basic Algebra. Critical thinking on the other hand..
    Maybe you can help me develop some by explaining your point to me. Please?

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sampras View Post
    You don't.


    Reading comprehension classes might come in handy. Effort has nothing to do with using an unneeded advantage in the easiest updates back to back for champs to date. Swapping progressively from 20k to 8k morale is leagues ahead advantage-wise than a champ using bracing repeatedly off cd, and no the amount of swaps we're talking about account for more than 1 measly bracing.
    aside from making up numbers, and other than the fact I literally know with 100% certainty that 1 bracing accounts for ~4k morale since I run combat analysis (and my swaps dropped me from 15k-11k). Is there anything else other than sharing feelings you're concerned with?

    I mean, you said it yourself. easiest to date. while referring to a glory champion chaining bracing attacks back to back and somehow that doesn't equate in potency to a 4k gap in morale made by jewelry. An 8k gap would be around 2 bracings, because of the HoT attached to it.

    regardless of the fact I've watched people parse over 40,000 damage to champions in the stance and still lose. while my overall total morale ended up at ~17k (1 rohan ring proc) in terms of damage taken when I'd lose.

    Bracing comes out far ahead, every time.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    Maybe you can help me develop some by explaining your point to me. Please?
    Would probably be more productive watching Orak claim intellectual superiority among an argument of utter nonsense, which he tries to justify by stapling in the word 'logic' every couple of words/sentences.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Thorandril View Post
    aside from making up numbers, and other than the fact I literally know with 100% certainty that 1 bracing accounts for ~4k morale since I run combat analysis (and my swaps dropped me from 15k-11k). Is there anything else other than sharing feelings you're concerned with?

    I mean, you said it yourself. easiest to date. while referring to a glory champion chaining bracing attacks back to back and somehow that doesn't equate in potency to a 4k gap in morale made by jewelry. An 8k gap would be around 2 bracings, because of the HoT attached to it.

    regardless of the fact I've watched people parse over 40,000 damage to champions in the stance and still lose. while my overall total morale ended up at ~17k (1 rohan ring proc) in terms of damage taken when I'd lose.

    Bracing comes out far ahead, every time.
    Its very clear we are referring to fervor champs, so you can hopefully drop the unintelligent act unless it's unintentional. One whom uses bracing attack at a moderate rate in 1vs1s and the other that gear swaps at such a magnitude that grants 8k temporary morale with the benefits of both tank and glass cannon setup. If all that information sank in and you still believe bracing attack at the rate described is more potent than gear swapping at the magnitude Kidefence portrays then I'd assume you're defending your GL for personal reasons.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Sampras View Post
    Its very clear we are referring to fervor champs, so you can hopefully drop the unintelligent act unless it's unintentional. One whom uses bracing attack at a moderate rate in 1vs1s and the other that gear swaps at such a magnitude that grants 8k temporary morale with the benefits of both tank and glass cannon setup. If all that information sank in and you still believe bracing attack at the rate described is more potent than gear swapping at the magnitude Kidefence portrays then I'd assume you're defending your GL for personal reasons.
    You were more than happy to explain your reasoning on something that only scratches the surface of the issue, how about the in depth explanation for why gear-swaps without bracing is so much better than no swaps with as many as you want?

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sampras View Post
    Its very clear we are referring to fervor champs, so you can hopefully drop the unintelligent act unless it's unintentional. One whom uses bracing attack at a moderate rate in 1vs1s and the other that gear swaps at such a magnitude that grants 8k temporary morale with the benefits of both tank and glass cannon setup. If all that information sank in and you still believe bracing attack at the rate described is more potent than gear swapping at the magnitude Kidefence portrays then I'd assume you're defending your GL for personal reasons.
    so did none of those numbers sink in, is math a problem or do you just feel like sharing feelings instead of actually making any useful points? 2 bracing attacks alone cover the morale gap with the added benefit of 50% cures at the touch of a single button (that's 1 for the reading challenged) versus 6 swaps in addition to the fact that it's pure morale->crit/critD/mit which isn't a tank build that swaps to a build that isn't a glass cannon build.

    I really feel like you're just blatantly throwing out words you think are right but know nothing about the builds you're complaining about, and I don't freep on this server anymore either. Any more things you want to be wrong about?

    also...
    Quote Originally Posted by Sampras View Post

    One whom uses bracing attack at a moderate rate in 1vs1s
    why would anyone who even decides to use bracing not use it every single time it's up? does moderate in this case mean "only to the extent that it's less in total than 8k morale"?
    Last edited by Thorandril; Dec 11 2013 at 03:53 AM.

  17. #17
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    Why is Stainless using orc-craft in PVP is what I want to know

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    You were more than happy to explain your reasoning on something that only scratches the surface of the issue, how about the in depth explanation for why gear-swaps without bracing is so much better than no swaps with as many as you want?
    He might be referring to skills gated by a threshold of morale (dev strike, revenge) which gear-swapping 'progressively from tank to glass' prevents pretty effectively.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Thorandril View Post
    so did none of those numbers sink in, is math a problem or do you just feel like sharing feelings instead of actually making any useful points? 2 bracing attacks alone cover the morale gap with the added benefit of 50% cures at the touch of a single button (that's 1 for the reading challenged)in addition to the fact that it's pure morale->crit/critD/mit which isn't a tank build that swaps to a build that isn't a glass cannon build
    You ridicule a champ for using an unneeded advantage that he didn't need in RoR, but another champ, in this case your GL does the same thing at a higher potency yet somehow its excusable because he presses a few extra buttons to gain that clear advantage that is very unnecessary.

    High mits and morale are the features of a tank setup, high crit and mastery are the features of a glass cannon setup, both these features exist in addition to an 8k temporary morale pool boost. Where does the disconnect come off between my post and what you interpret of it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thorandril View Post
    why would anyone who even decides to use bracing not use it every single time it's up? does moderate in this case mean "only to the extent that it's less in total than 8k morale"?
    A fervor champ doesn't come anywhere close to surviving as long or using bracing attack to the degree and potency of a glory champ. I'm fairly sure you're aware why 3 or more bracing attacks aren't necessary for anything but defiler and wl 1v1s but I suppose providing examples of the magnitude of bad glory champ performance in this game somehow indicative that what any average champ is capable of in these two easy books is something very impressive and unique.
    Last edited by Sampras; Dec 11 2013 at 07:15 AM.

  20. #20
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    Stainless is now stained

    Orc-craft in PVP has been confirmed

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sampras View Post
    You ridicule a champ for using an unneeded advantage that he didn't need in RoR, but another champ, in this case your GL does the same thing at a higher potency yet somehow its excusable because he presses a few extra buttons to gain that clear advantage that is very unnecessary.
    Who says it's unnecessary? Those who can't compete? I and many other tribemates have and had fights that were quite often down to the wire and ended up in either double KB's or the victor surviving at 10% morale or less. And for the second time, I'm not in ANV.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sampras View Post
    High mits and morale are the features of a tank setup, high crit and mastery are the features of a glass cannon setup, both these features exist in addition to an 8k temporary morale pool boost. Where does the disconnect come off between my post and what you interpret of it?
    But the build doesn't start high in mitigations, nor does it end with any focus at all on mastery. The same goes for the build I ran that was very much focussed on other stats whose morale swaps were of a lesser degree. And the same for success rate. I personally found it more interesting and involved then just simply popping 1-2 bracings when they came off cooldown, when I used bracing it nearly guaranteed a win versus swaps.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sampras View Post
    A fervor champ doesn't come anywhere close to surviving as long or using bracing attack to the degree and potency of a glory champ
    That's rather obvious but it isn't difficult to do what I've mentioned and live long enough for the 2 needed to cover the morale required to essentially mimic this swap build minus the effort with the added bonus of cures, etc. Not to mention you don't need to be traited glory to stance swap or kite, both things that dramatically increase your survivability. Neither of which to me is impressive, as it doesn't require the same attention to detail or APM.

    As for the last part it's clearly a personal issue and I don't really care much about those.

  22. #22
    Isi answered the other stuff decently enough, though I'm still waiting on an actual explanation rather than some trivial snippets. You said it was obvious, didn't you?

    Quote Originally Posted by mikeakarobinhood View Post
    He might be referring to skills gated by a threshold of morale (dev strike, revenge) which gear-swapping 'progressively from tank to glass' prevents pretty effectively.
    The flaw in this logic is that (as has been explained already) total morale a reaver has to damage through is the same or even higher for the person not gearswapping, meaning Dev strike is going to be available in both at a roughly similar point (admittedly SLIGHTLY sooner for the person not gearswapping) and when the champ is under 50%, the champ running swaps is going to take a significantly harder hit from DS thanks to a loss in mitigations and critical defense (and presumably the final impale) relative to the champ with a static and more 'balanced' build.

    All of this generally ignores the fact that the champ in question in this discussion probably had lower crit and phys mastery in their 'glass cannon' phase of swaps than most champs that had 3-4k more morale without swapping.

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    The flaw in this logic is that (as has been explained already) total morale a reaver has to damage through is the same or even higher for the person not gearswapping, meaning Dev strike is going to be available in both at a roughly similar point (admittedly SLIGHTLY sooner for the person not gearswapping)
    Quote Originally Posted by Thorandril View Post
    An 8k gap would be around 2 bracings, because of the HoT attached to it.
    The total morale may be the same between an 8k gear-bubble and two Bracing Attacks (which is the number allowed by the ~50s Reaver - Champion fights in my experience), but the behaviour of such morale is of course different. A champ, such as Jkgorn, using bracing would generally get one heal off before being at 50% morale. This would account for, to be generous, 3k morale (the HoT not completing its 15s course). A gear-bubble, on the other hand, does all its work before 50% morale.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeakarobinhood View Post
    The total morale may be the same between an 8k gear-bubble and two Bracing Attacks (which is the number allowed by the ~50s Reaver - Champion fights in my experience), but the behaviour of such morale is of course different. A champ, such as Jkgorn, using bracing would generally get one heal off before being at 50% morale. This would account for, to be generous, 3k morale (the HoT not completing its 15s course). A gear-bubble, on the other hand, does all its work before 50% morale.
    When taking into account said player being typically in Glory, it's irrelevant considering that even post 50% morale there's still exalted combatant which when fired would take into account the total 8k pool in difference, having only ever braced once.

    Additionally not considering the ~1.7k ring proc.

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by mikeakarobinhood View Post
    The total morale may be the same between an 8k gear-bubble and two Bracing Attacks (which is the number allowed by the ~50s Reaver - Champion fights in my experience), but the behaviour of such morale is of course different. A champ, such as Jkgorn, using bracing would generally get one heal off before being at 50% morale. This would account for, to be generous, 3k morale (the HoT not completing its 15s course). A gear-bubble, on the other hand, does all its work before 50% morale.
    No heal proc ring?

    If the champ were set up with about 10-11k morale, this is certainly true, but most successful champs were in the 12.5-14k range, effectively taking them out of range of impale bringing them to half morale. And with a decently mitigated champ impale was the only thing that could move their morale bar faster than bracing filled it at a meaningful rate.

    More simply put, how many champ vs reaver fights (where both were decent players) were over in under 30s with the reaver winning? This is what you're basically suggesting was happening.

 

 
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