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  1. #1
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    How much time do the devs get to play on LIVE together?

    In the early days of the game Turbine employees actually played their game as far as I remember.

    I know you have quality control playing to check before stuff goes live, I'd hope so anyway, but is there any allocated time for devs to play Live or is it spare time play only?

    And if they play, do they play together, solo or in different kins/servers?

    I've seen a turbine video of the resent grp content where they go around with zero morale and can't die, maybe it was just for a demo but I'd like to think some of you can actually play. Any kins out there with turbine employees as members? What worries me is that they are all playing other games in their spare time, seeing how those games work and thinking to bring in ideas, gameplay and such into LOTRO. What brought me to LOTRO were those things that stood out as different from other games and over the last couple of years those things have slowly been eroded.

    Bentley don't make a hatchback, they might have a cup holder here and there but I'm sure it's made of cow hide and wood veneer and magically pops out of the dash.

    I'd really like to know that you guys play this game, one or two afternoons a week together. Do a raid on level, Rift would be perfect. Give yourselves the Rift set if you like but no fancy god mode or "+" prefix, play it for real. Another week do the Watcher or In There Absence or Carn Dum 6 mans on level with appropriate gear.

    I'm just worried that you haven't actually played the content, you don't know the great content you've made in the passed nor those failures you might just be repeating around the corner. Perhaps our council members might ask them how much they play or even get in game with them during their visit and play some content.

    Macdui

  2. #2
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    yes they do play. how regularly? no idea, bet it differs greatly.

    they play on normal servers with normal people but ofc hide there identity. if your on an american server and know a guy who always seems to know whats coming up, who knows, it might be a turbine employee. they've said before they do spy on chats and use it as feedback at times, so there probably the very quite people around.

    to name a few devs off the top of my head; I know RockX has a burglar and captain, he said he's completed every raids but not all at top tier. iinc, his favourate raid was OD wound. sapience ofc plays a hunter. I'm pretty sure applepie has a hobbit minstrel too. I *think* jinjaar has a champion. but from there my maybe's run dry and pure speculation comes in.
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by YamydeAragon View Post
    Not true! Some regular players always know what is going on because they are beta testers & beeing around for a while. That doesnt make them turbines employes.
    check the word *might*
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  4. #4
    Sapience is offline Former Community Manager & Harbinger of Soon
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    We play. We play on perfectly normal accounts on live servers. We aren't allowed any 'god mode' tricks on our personal accounts. We can actually get in a very large amount of trouble if we do.
    We're in kins. We lead kins. We have our own kins just for employees. Some raid, some RP, some solo, some group. Anything you can think of as a 'player playstyle' is pretty much the same way we play. We aren't any different when it comes to playing on live. There are Turbine employees who don't work on LOTRO, but play it.


    Quote Originally Posted by bohbashum View Post
    they play on normal servers with normal people but ofc hide there identity. if your on an american server and know a guy who always seems to know whats coming up, who knows, it might be a turbine employee. they've said before they do spy on chats and use it as feedback at times, so there probably the very quite people around.
    Generally you'll find Turbine employees to be the last person you'd ever suspect. We make a point of not talking about upcoming things. It avoids us being ID'd based on the example you gave.

    Most of us have several 'play' accounts and one 'admin' account. You'll find we use admin accounts only during press events or on Bullroarer, but never on live.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Sapience View Post
    We play. We play on perfectly normal accounts on live servers. We aren't allowed any 'god mode' tricks on our personal accounts. We can actually get in a very large amount of trouble if we do.
    We're in kins. We lead kins. We have our own kins just for employees. Some raid, some RP, some solo, some group. Anything you can think of as a 'player playstyle' is pretty much the same way we play. We aren't any different when it comes to playing on live. There are Turbine employees who don't work on LOTRO, but play it.




    Generally you'll find Turbine employees to be the last person you'd ever suspect. We make a point of not talking about upcoming things. It avoids us being ID'd based on the example you gave.

    Most of us have several 'play' accounts and one 'admin' account. You'll find we use admin accounts only during press events or on Bullroarer, but never on live.
    Now I'm going through all the people I know, wondering if they're a dev.
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  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Sapience View Post
    We play. We play on perfectly normal accounts on live servers. We aren't allowed any 'god mode' tricks on our personal accounts. We can actually get in a very large amount of trouble if we do.
    We're in kins. We lead kins. We have our own kins just for employees. Some raid, some RP, some solo, some group. Anything you can think of as a 'player playstyle' is pretty much the same way we play. We aren't any different when it comes to playing on live. There are Turbine employees who don't work on LOTRO, but play it.




    Generally you'll find Turbine employees to be the last person you'd ever suspect. We make a point of not talking about upcoming things. It avoids us being ID'd based on the example you gave.

    Most of us have several 'play' accounts and one 'admin' account. You'll find we use admin accounts only during press events or on Bullroarer, but never on live.

    Hmm... " Last person you`d ever suspect"..Hmmm.... I`v got it! The mini who clubbed his way to rank14 on Laurelin is a dev?.
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  7. #7
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    Did you try Great River after it was remade from being all 75?

    At 75, you needed to be able to use stables from level 70. The stables are still level 70, making it a tad hard to use when the lowest you can go there for quests is level 65-66.
    At 75, you had already played Isengard all the way through and you arrived being - well - level 75. The reputation barter for travel skills were level 75. They are still level 75, making them a tad hard to use as your character is most likely over in next area by the time it hits 75.
    At 75, all the mobs surrounding the various quest hubs dropped the same loot. This meant it was very convenient for task boards as they could all be the same. They are still all the same and they are still for the exact same Task Items as they used to be: the mobs around the quest hubs did change and so it's very hard to get any tasks handed in at the first 4-5 places in Great River.

    The above means that noone actually tried to play it through before release.

    While bad, on top of that a barrage of bug reports to get this stuff fixed was blatantly ignored.

    No dev played through anything as a regular user. I'm quite convinced after looking at the above experience.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Macroscian View Post
    No dev played through anything as a regular user.
    You might have missed Sapience's post.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapience View Post
    Generally you'll find Turbine employees to be the last person you'd ever suspect. We make a point of not talking about upcoming things. It avoids us being ID'd based on the example you gave.
    yeahhhh, sureeeee. I bet you/they have the odd Freudian slip

    human after all.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roberto_the_First View Post
    You might have missed Sapience's post.
    Not really. I read it but how can I trust that info when actual game experience contradicts it?


    Did you try Great River after it was remade from being all 75?

    At 75, you needed to be able to use stables from level 70. The stables are still level 70, making it a tad hard to use when the lowest you can go there for quests is level 65-66.
    At 75, you had already played Isengard all the way through and you arrived being - well - level 75. The reputation barter for travel skills were level 75. They are still level 75, making them a tad hard to use as your character is most likely over in next area by the time it hits 75.
    At 75, all the mobs surrounding the various quest hubs dropped the same loot. This meant it was very convenient for task boards as they could all be the same. They are still all the same and they are still for the exact same Task Items as they used to be: the mobs around the quest hubs did change and so it's very hard to get any tasks handed in at the first 4-5 places in Great River.

    The above means that noone actually tried to play it through before release.

    While bad, on top of that, a barrage of bug reports to get this stuff fixed was blatantly ignored.



    The above is not an argument, it's just facts.

    EDIT I checked GR again after posting this and...it still hasn't been fixed. It is absolutely 100% impossible to test this bit of the game without noticing the flaws. That it's still the same means that more bug reports went ignored.
    Last edited by Macroscian; Oct 24 2013 at 06:25 PM.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Macroscian View Post
    Not really. I read it but how can I trust that info when actual game experience contradicts it?


    .
    And this is why Devs avoid game forums like the plague. No matter what they say or do(I know Sapience is not a Dev) they cannot win. Sometimes I disagree with Sapience and have issues with how Turbine handles things(3 year old forum beta anyone?), but I've never known them to lie.
    Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymphonic View Post
    And this is why Devs avoid game forums like the plague. No matter what they say or do(I know Sapience is not a Dev) they cannot win. Sometimes I disagree with Sapience and have issues with how Turbine handles things(3 year old forum beta anyone?), but I've never known them to lie.
    Yes, I'd avoid it as well

    Still - to make a new level for the area, you need a test character 65-70 in this case. Main question would be: what is the experience for the user? What is the user story?
    The tough bits have already been dealt with: area graphics, the overall story, the flow of the play. All it needs now is to become logical for the new level of gamer arriving and this did not happen.

    I do go on about this GR thing, don't I
    I've heartily recommended this place as smooth gaming through a few levels. It's my (somewhat so-so) reputation down the drain when these people arrive to find that it's more or less broken in important bits.

    If there is no feedback, there is no reason to pick up suggestions and there is no reason to deal with bug reports and there is no reason to submit bug reports. Any complaint is a buying hook: the user is interested enough to file a complaint instead of just leaving quietly.

    Even if someone is right now testing the cap 95 stuff, are they doing that playing on a character that starts being 81-85 to emulate the experience once the area is up and running and ready to be played by the new gamers caught by the current adverts? For Wildermore that I assume will become 81-85, will this relvling be tested on a character that starts out as 76-79? I foresee barters remaining 85 all across the NPCs, I suspect stables will be from level 80, I think the travel skills will be 85, I think the barters will not reflect the new version of the classes, I think that task board will stay the same.

    It just seems to me the feedback loop is broken. It appears to me that the testing leaves somewhat to be desired and that possibly it never happened in this case. I think it's a major legacy to leave behind, botching a great area like that with what seems like a shoddy job.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Macroscian View Post
    Not really. I read it but how can I trust that info when actual game experience contradicts it?
    that evidance is not factual.

    in fact, your just looking at how the QA system works. sometimes bugs are just too much to fix, if there not game breaking it can save money and time (that would be spend on developing new content) to carry it on.

    this could also prove beta testers were not using the /bug tool appropriatly and just thinking "well someone else will bug it". you'll find thats how many bugs get though... and then time to fix them is cut because you have your next project assuming you did the last one well enough...
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by bohbashum View Post
    that evidance is not factual.

    in fact, your just looking at how the QA system works. sometimes bugs are just too much to fix, if there not game breaking it can save money and time (that would be spend on developing new content) to carry it on.

    this could also prove beta testers were not using the /bug tool appropriatly and just thinking "well someone else will bug it". you'll find thats how many bugs get though... and then time to fix them is cut because you have your next project assuming you did the last one well enough...
    No, the point in opening post and my post: no time was spent testing the bit I mention.

    The /bug bugging buggery is just added cream cheese.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Macroscian View Post
    No, the point in opening post and my post: no time was spent testing the bit I mention.
    You have shown no evidence whatsoever for that. All your post shows is that there are many problems that they have not fixed.
    Even if something is tested, and problems found, it does not follow that the found problems will be fixed.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by ertr View Post
    You have shown no evidence whatsoever for that. All your post shows is that there are many problems that they have not fixed.
    Even if something is tested, and problems found, it does not follow that the found problems will be fixed.
    Semantics.

    Alternately, as you say: it was tested but there was no actual use in running a test, the area was obsolete in any case. Would the testing - in game, on a character, as a real user experiencing the game - would this test have happened at all? To push a button changing the level of using a stable ride from 70 to 65 cannot have been a huge issue in priorities but - if tested - does mean the world when playing the area. It simply was not tested. Pushing a button to change the travel skills barter from 75 to 70 cannot have been a huge priorities issue but - if tested - does mean the world for the character running the content. It simply did not happen. There is no logic accepting that those keystrokes would have been omitted or that anyone seeing feedback would fail to push those buttons a good many months on: there is no feedback, there was no testing.

    Due to my experience in this particular matter, I am convinced that no testing happened. If testing happened, it was done poorly, using a character that was already 75. If testing was done using a character at 75, there was no point to the test. Sadly, I am also convinced that no amount of feedback will change this.

    EDIT Testing should be Testing and no actual testing happened. I have no doubt that someone passed time doing something, but it was not Testing the game-play.
    Last edited by Macroscian; Oct 25 2013 at 09:33 AM.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Macroscian View Post
    No, the point in opening post and my post: no time was spent testing the bit I mention.
    again, no evidance, just assumtions based on a few bugs and issues.

    I guess cos I found a hair in my burger EVERY SINGLE burger made will have a hair in it?
    well I found a text bug a while back, does that mean no one re-read EVERYTHING else?
    beta probably has quite a few bugs, does that mean they didn't even try?
    does that mean it'll never get fixed?

    no, your being ignorant about QA.
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by bohbashum View Post
    again, no evidance, just assumtions based on a few bugs and issues.

    I guess cos I found a hair in my burger EVERY SINGLE burger made will have a hair in it?
    well I found a text bug a while back, does that mean no one re-read EVERYTHING else?
    beta probably has quite a few bugs, does that mean they didn't even try?
    does that mean it'll never get fixed?

    no, your being ignorant about QA.
    I don't work in the game industry, I'm a regular gamer concerned with the topic of this thread.

    I probably over-interpreted: this is really about 'do staff go and have fun?' and not about 'do staff check changes by playing'.

  19. #19
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    As the OP here I wanted to get a feel of who at Turbine actually played regularly through all the content and really had a feel for the classes and how the played group content.

    They set up a beautiful world to explore and put in the effort on quest lines with a story even if it does have us collection planks of wood occasionally. Was wary of the Big Battles idea but have found some interest to them. I like to build a catapult and blast their siege weapons and feel mortified when some goblin has set it on fire and it's destroyed.

    But I'm so disappointed that they had to make the class changes at the same time. All the dev time put into the expansion, BBs and Class revamp had no time to balance existing content for the changes. End of Beta had class devs falling over themselves trying to please the disappointed beta testers. They were all over the beta forums but still mostly absent from Live.

    I wanted to illicit details of the class devs play time: Had any done The Rift on level when end game was Angmar? Tanked the Trolls in DN? Ranged tanked tentacles and shouted "<name>dangling" on the Watcher or known the consequence of "Away with you" on BG Twins? There's so much of the past end game group mechanics that's seems to be forgotten or has completely passed them by. My suspicion is that it was easier to throw out the classes than to understand them and base future content and up scaling to their new understanding of the classes.

    Yes there will be some balancing going on in future updates, we'll max out our legacies and hope the skill won't be removed from that trait line. We'll have to create different LIs for each trait line we run with, more grind. Again it's about the Store, should it generate more cash for WB. No need to wonder why only horse and goat are active in BBs when the Store has Journeyman Riding mount speed!

    Mac

  20. #20
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    Apologies for digging this old thread up.

    I recently watched a Frelorn stream with Vyvyanne. Both have come from DDO but have been playing LoTRO a long while.

    Now I have met a few long time players you really would not want running the show. I'm sure they both have a lot to do catching up on all things LoTRO but I'm amazed at some basics of day to day play they don't know about. Not knowing our loot boxes and hobbit presents are level 90 capped would point at not playing a capped toon for some time. I don't doubt their enthusiasm but I don't want it to be misplaced.

    Are they aware of:-
    Crafted cooking fires stuck on Oak level.
    The lack of hunter camps since the last single one put in the Westenmet and no summoning horns that used to accompany many campfires.
    Gating of capped Journals on Westernmet coin and rep.
    T2 mob stats.
    Invisible Fell Beasts and Champion's Duel being the only skill in game to affect it's speed.
    Blanket changes made to Mob morale levels effecting timed encounters.
    Old dungeon mechanics at odds with threat mechanics changes.
    The lack of a threat mechanic dev diary (heal threat) and specific classes loss of threat skills.
    and many others players see every day...

    Now I don't expect them to know all these but there should be enough at Turbine to come across all of them and pass on the info, if you really play this game. Reading on the forum would tell you all this but you don't know the frustration we feel at the end of an evening's efforts to find the end boss unplayable/not wai because if you had played it you'd have fixed it.

    I want to know what Vyvyanne's /played time is on her various characters, what they have accomplished in game. Have they done every quest and deed? Have they raided on level Rift, Hele, Watcher, DN, BG, OD, ToO, Erebor and understood the mechanics and completed them and know the euphoria of that truly epic first kill? Even, have they participated in the festivals, got their name on the MD statue, gotten The Stead of Many Colours or Thurlach's Blade and Ominous Pool outside their hobbit hole home? Do they have all the EB Gold Jewels and Essence Armour pimped out and know the frustrations of crit failures. Do they have multiple trait trees and know when a where to play each one? I don't think you have the players to get beyond the Door in BGT2.

    If you all played you'd understand our frustrations and our flaming on the forums. I would hope that the call for streamers will not just produce solo players but some raiders, don't have the rig for it myself, and show how it is now against the old capped versions.

    I have a combined 18 months /played on all chars.

    Mac

 

 

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