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  1. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by djheydt View Post
    Actually, not. All Hallows' Day was another example of the Church's reaction to important pagan festivals, baptizing them (so to speak).
    All Hallows' was originally Samhain (pronounced Soween), the eve of the autumn cross-quarter day (that is, the day halfway between
    the autumn equinox and the winter solstice), when the dead were supposed to walk.

    It was important, in northern Europe, to know not only when the quarter days (solstices and equinoxes) came but also when the cross-
    quarter days (in February, May, August, and October) came, because you needed to know when to plant your different crops -- if you
    planted too early, frost would kill the seedlings; if you planted too late, frost would come back before you could harvest. So when
    Christianity came to northern Europe, the quarter- and cross-quarter-days got important Christian festivals and major saints' days attached
    to them.

    If the Hobbits were observing Samhain, they would do so by crouching in their smials, desperately hoping that the dead wouldn't
    ride out of the Barrow-downs and get them.

    Tolkien put his Catholic Christianity as far into the background as he could. Halloween is as close to a secular festival as you can get
    these days, as anyone who's seen The Nightmare Before Christmas will recall.

    Oh, yes, and before there were pumpkins in Britain, the kids made jack-o'-lanterns out of turnips. They must have had mighty
    turnips in those days.
    The kids still do. It originated in Scotland, where turnips are not actually turnips, but what Americans call rutabaga, and the rest of Britain call swedes. They were also what I knew as turnips when I was growing up in the north of England. Sadly, it most parts they have been superceded by carving pumpkins - sigh. I'm well aware of Hallowe'en=Samhain. Also Christmas=Yule, and Easter is perilously close to Beltane (and thinking about it, Trinity is not that far away from the summer solstice). I just think that the Halloween and pumpkin stuff doesn't fit in Middle Earth, and that, as the nights draw in, your average hobbit would be more concerned with getting stuck into a good feed, and the first new season's ale/cider.

    So far as Yule is concerned, Tolkien mentions it as being one of the extra year-days, so I can't see that going anywhere else soon.

    I suppose my main concern, which you allude to above, is the gross over-commercialisation of Halloween, which began west of the Atlantic, and is now sadly spreading its pernicious tentacles everywhere. Give me back my innocent days of carving turnips and ducking for apples!

  2. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Beorthnoth View Post
    Give me back my innocent days of carving turnips and ducking for apples!
    Dammit! THAT'S where I've been going wrong all these years. Carving the apples was always less than thrilling and I couldn't see why everyone was so excited about ducking for turnips. Yes....it all makes sense now (DOH!)
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/2521c0000000007fe/01003/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

    Musician, Orator and Composer in The Shades

  3. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Beorthnoth View Post
    The kids still do. It originated in Scotland, where turnips are not actually turnips, but what Americans call rutabaga, and the rest of Britain call swedes. They were also what I knew as turnips when I was growing up in the north of England. Sadly, it most parts they have been superceded by carving pumpkins - sigh. I'm well aware of Hallowe'en=Samhain. Also Christmas=Yule, and Easter is perilously close to Beltane (and thinking about it, Trinity is not that far away from the summer solstice). I just think that the Halloween and pumpkin stuff doesn't fit in Middle Earth, and that, as the nights draw in, your average hobbit would be more concerned with getting stuck into a good feed, and the first new season's ale/cider.

    So far as Yule is concerned, Tolkien mentions it as being one of the extra year-days, so I can't see that going anywhere else soon.

    I suppose my main concern, which you allude to above, is the gross over-commercialisation of Halloween, which began west of the Atlantic, and is now sadly spreading its pernicious tentacles everywhere. Give me back my innocent days of carving turnips and ducking for apples!

    We call them turnips in the Midlands too. Have many fond memories from the late 80s and early 90s of my sister and I each having a carved turnip at Halloween. They were heavy!

    I think Turbine call it 'Fall' because they are an American company and that is what they call Autumn in the USA, plus most Americans would probably not know what Autumn is if they used that term. I have no problem with them doing this outside of the game to advertise the festival, but do think calling Autumn, Fall in game is inappropriate.

  4. #29
    It depends on where you live in the US, but even then it gets used interchangeably. I refer to it as both... but I prefer using Autumn just because it sounds prettier than "the Fall".
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  5. #30
    Join Date
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    The problem is that most of the people that work for Turbine are Americans. Te American third season is Fall. It is only going to be the British folks working for Turbine and the Tolkien lore fanatics that think of it as Autumn.
    Or....for that matter every other country in the world BUT america as they follow British English.

    Even most dictionaries found in america follow British English. (got a funny story about that)

    Only america uses its own English.

    Not that it bothers me at all. But america IS the minority in the uses of its own terms and English, and stands alone in that regard. Any country that is not English speaking is taught 'real' English.

    But as said, its not a big deal, why really care?
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  6. #31
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
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    33
    Quote Originally Posted by Ellieni View Post
    . . . most Americans would probably not know what Autumn is if they used that term.
    No one would've had a problem understanding if they'd just kept it the "Harvest Festival" or something like that, and then what would we have left to argue about?

    And honestly, although it must be strange in Australia, New Zealand etc... to have the seasons upside-down, I hope it is somehow understandable as to why they keep the traditions timed so that they correspond to where Middle Earth was 'born'.

  7. #32
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    Dec 2008
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    Cool! lets call this festival THE HARVEST FESTIVAL & celebrate by my calendar. We harvest all year long at my place.
    Is this Alternate Playable Character Disorder? :

    Check my Kinship at Gladden server: The Fate of Middle Earth

  8. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Ellieni View Post
    We call them turnips in the Midlands too. Have many fond memories from the late 80s and early 90s of my sister and I each having a carved turnip at Halloween. They were heavy!

    I think Turbine call it 'Fall' because they are an American company and that is what they call Autumn in the USA, plus most Americans would probably not know what Autumn is if they used that term. I have no problem with them doing this outside of the game to advertise the festival, but do think calling Autumn, Fall in game is inappropriate.
    Literally every single person born in the United States is aware that "Fall" is also known as "Autumn", and likely uses both words interchangeably.

    The sea is calling us home...

  9. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Deimo View Post
    Tolkien was a professor of Anglo-Saxon and English, and language was very important to him, since he went out of his way to construct a variety of them. It may be insubstantial to some but I'd rather not spit on his legacy by beginning to corrupt his works by sliding american colloquialism in, what next Hobbits twerking?
    Fall is not a colloquialism. It also did not originate in America, they just kept saying there it when it went of style back in England. The Americans kept saying it in fact because many of them at the time were trying to be as proper and traditional with their English as possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Khazneh1 View Post
    They certainly do.
    Tolkien was an eloquent user of language and used English appropriate to the context and time. It is such a shame to corrupt that by using words and terms that would have no place in his works.
    Turbine has repeatedly told us to bug instances where Americanisms are used, this one seems to sneak past each year.
    There have been moose in Forochel for quite some time now ...
    Last edited by ManaBone; Oct 23 2013 at 11:03 PM.

  10. #35
    wait i thought Autumn is fall in all other countries accept U.S.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManaBone View Post
    Fall is not a colloquialism. It also did not originate in America, they just kept saying there it when it went of style back in England. The Americans kept saying it in fact because many of them at the time were trying to be as proper and traditional with their English as possible.



    There have been moose in Forochel for quite some time now ...
    Zinger of the year

    And the minstrel sang to them……”and they passed in thought out to regions where pain and delight flow together and tears are the very wine of blessedness.”

  12. #37
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
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    805
    In game it remains autumn.

    I would give Lore the final say....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1YoVo_y0tU

  13. #38
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    Apr 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khazneh1 View Post
    The use of American colloquialisms spoils the game for some of us.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deimo View Post
    Tolkien was a professor of Anglo-Saxon and English, and language was very important to him, since he went out of his way to construct a variety of them. It may be insubstantial to some but I'd rather not spit on his legacy by beginning to corrupt his works by sliding american colloquialism in, what next Hobbits twerking?

    We Yanks haven't been blamed for anything here in the forums for some time, we were due.

    Quote Originally Posted by djheydt View Post
    Actually, not. All Hallows' Day was another example of the Church's reaction to important pagan festivals, baptizing them (so to speak).
    All Hallows' was originally Samhain (pronounced Soween), the eve of the autumn cross-quarter day (that is, the day halfway between
    the autumn equinox and the winter solstice), when the dead were supposed to walk.

    It was important, in northern Europe, to know not only when the quarter days (solstices and equinoxes) came but also when the cross-
    quarter days (in February, May, August, and October) came, because you needed to know when to plant your different crops -- if you
    planted too early, frost would kill the seedlings; if you planted too late, frost would come back before you could harvest. So when
    Christianity came to northern Europe, the quarter- and cross-quarter-days got important Christian festivals and major saints' days attached
    to them.

    If the Hobbits were observing Samhain, they would do so by crouching in their smials, desperately hoping that the dead wouldn't
    ride out of the Barrow-downs and get them.

    Tolkien put his Catholic Christianity as far into the background as he could. Halloween is as close to a secular festival as you can get
    these days, as anyone who's seen The Nightmare Before Christmas will recall.

    Oh, yes, and before there were pumpkins in Britain, the kids made jack-o'-lanterns out of turnips. They must have had mighty
    turnips in those days.

    That was a pretty good history lesson, thanks for sharing!
    Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"
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  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dordain View Post
    Literally every single person born in the United States is aware that "Fall" is also known as "Autumn", and likely uses both words interchangeably.
    I'm almost 50 and have never met an American that did not know what Autumn means.
    Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"
    Continuing the never ending battle to keep Lobelia Sackville-Baggins in check

  15. #40
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
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    Hertfordshire, UK
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManaBone View Post
    Fall is not a colloquialism. It also did not originate in America, they just kept saying there it when it went of style back in England. The Americans kept saying it in fact because many of them at the time were trying to be as proper and traditional with their English as possible..
    Correct it did not originate in America, however it never really went out of style in England, because it never came into style in England, it was used for a short while just before and during the spread to the new world (hence why it is mainly an american word now), but not exclusively and not usurping the word Autumn.

    The word Fall actually comes from the Old English word word Feallan meaning "to fall or die" and not as everyone believes the phrase "Fall of the Leaf", it does mean Fall of the Leaf now, but that's not the origin of the word, it kind of morphed into that because it sounded logical.

    Neither of these words are older than the word Autumn, Fall dates back to the 1700's, Feallan dates back to the early 1600's.

    Autumn though can be found as far back as the 1300's in Chaucers work and quite frequently in Shakespeare's work, specifically A Midsummer's Nights Dream; “The spring, the summer, the childing autumn, angry winter.”
    [I][URL="http://www.swgrp.co.uk/main/socks/"]Wet Socks & Two Smoking Hobits: the mad ramblings of Handee Pokits[/URL][/I]

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faengalith View Post
    No one would've had a problem understanding if they'd just kept it the "Harvest Festival" or something like that, and then what would we have left to argue about?

    And honestly, although it must be strange in Australia, New Zealand etc... to have the seasons upside-down, I hope it is somehow understandable as to why they keep the traditions timed so that they correspond to where Middle Earth was 'born'.
    Its not us its the rest of you that are back to front!
    *chuckles*

    To be honest though most of us in the Southern farthing understand why (i hope) and i actually enjoy celebrating summer in the middle of my winter and find it cooling to celebrate winterfest and building snowmen when outside its 40 odd degrees celcius
    Just dont expect me to bob for turnips or other root vegetables *grimaces*
    now bobbing for a stubbie (bottle) of beer...now THAT id do!

    Oh and we refer to it as Autumn...Fall is seen as an Americanism...although after reading some of the other posts im being edumacated
    Inside every old person is a young person wondering what just happened

 

 
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