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  1. #1

    Why aren't you in Beta?

    We all have different reason for not participating in Beta. What is yours?
    • Don't want spoilers?
    • Feel you don't have time to provide good feedback?
    • Feel like you won't be listened to?
    • Don't have a code because you have chosen not to get one of the free codes that Turbine has given away on Facebook (the last campaign lasted for over 48 hours, so everyone had a chance to get one), and have chosen not to ask in Global or in a large kinship like other players have done to get a code?

  2. #2
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    • Unwilling to agree to an NDA.
    Join the LotRO Volunteer QA Team!
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  3. #3
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    • Don't want to ruin the storyline/content for myself before it goes live.


    Glorgnorbor
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  4. #4
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    • Not on Facebook, and unwilling to create a dummy account just to get a beta key.


    And I have no idea what you're talking about with codes coming from glff or large kinships. That doesn't happen on any of my servers.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by J_Howell View Post
    • Not on Facebook, and unwilling to create a dummy account just to get a beta key.


    And I have no idea what you're talking about with codes coming from glff or large kinships. That doesn't happen on any of my servers.
    Especially when you have to share your friends list, email, name, picture, etc with a company you know nothing about and could easily steal your ID.

    Glorgnorbor
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  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by robbie1435 View Post
    Especially when you have to share your friends list, email, name, picture, etc with a company you know nothing about and could easily steal your ID.
    This.

    I was going to snag a beta code from the recent promotion, until I found out it involves some 3rd party FB app. I have an FB account and "liked" Lotro long ago, but I do not give access to my FB info to any apps.
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  7. #7
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    No FB for me, thank you.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by banjolier View Post
    • Unwilling to agree to an NDA.

    same here. I believe there shouldn't be any secrets and they should have disclosed this expansion 3 weeks ago! I don't like surprises, not since I was 12 or so. What I'd like to see is the truth of whats coming, not some spin on how I should feel about it.
    Mean what you say and say what you mean! If you don't there are always consequences!

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by LaGere View Post
    same here. I believe there shouldn't be any secrets and they should have disclosed this expansion 3 weeks ago! I don't like surprises, not since I was 12 or so. What I'd like to see is the truth of whats coming, not some spin on how I should feel about it.
    Well, having testing of a product in development occur under NDA is actually due to a much more serious reason than a penchant for keeping secrets. It's because testers see the product in a very unfinished state in order to actually contribute testing.

    Since people tend not to listen very much to notices like "all details subject to change" when they get info, creating talk about bugged content, unfinished textures and dead-end questlines will create a lot more negative word-of-mouth than is actually warranted, as most of these are fixed before launch. This has been the case with all prior LOTRO expansions, and I can't actually imagine a beta testing of any software that doesn't follow that pattern. The NDA is in such cases are meant to keep the discussion to actually informed people until such time as it's fit to actually show to the public.



    For the actual topic of the thread: I avoid betas since I want to see the new content in the right context, and I'm not sure I'd actually be a very good tester since my playtime is already limited.

  10. #10
    • No time to test properly
    • Worried I won't have enough time to get enough Bounder Tokens before the 18th to get things I want
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  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Cadd_EU View Post
    Well, having testing of a product in development occur under NDA is actually due to a much more serious reason than a penchant for keeping secrets. It's because testers see the product in a very unfinished state in order to actually contribute testing.

    Since people tend not to listen very much to notices like "all details subject to change" when they get info, creating talk about bugged content, unfinished textures and dead-end questlines will create a lot more negative word-of-mouth than is actually warranted, as most of these are fixed before launch. This has been the case with all prior LOTRO expansions, and I can't actually imagine a beta testing of any software that doesn't follow that pattern. The NDA is in such cases are meant to keep the discussion to actually informed people until such time as it's fit to actually show to the public.



    For the actual topic of the thread: I avoid betas since I want to see the new content in the right context, and I'm not sure I'd actually be a very good tester since my playtime is already limited.
    This is not a real beta test. This is all about marketing and revenue. They are getting paid by some Facebook company. Players give the facebook company their personal info, it gets sold to other companies, and Turbine gets a fee.

    The whole point of a beta is that it's feature complete. All that is left is tweaking. The programmers likely have reams of bugs to fix from the real, internal beta they ran before this phony one.

  12. #12
    - Can't be bothered to waste my time playing a game that's just gonna be wiped in a few weeks. My time is limited enough already.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by trancejeremy View Post
    This is not a real beta test. This is all about marketing and revenue. They are getting paid by some Facebook company. Players give the facebook company their personal info, it gets sold to other companies, and Turbine gets a fee.

    The whole point of a beta is that it's feature complete. All that is left is tweaking. The programmers likely have reams of bugs to fix from the real, internal beta they ran before this phony one.
    I can't say much about the Facebook thing, though I doubt Turbine gets a kickback from that.

    From my experience in every closed beta from MoM to RoR and none of them were phony betas. All of them have had issues being addressed during the beta. MoM a bit less than the later ones.
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by trancejeremy View Post
    The whole point of a beta is that it's feature complete. All that is left is tweaking. The programmers likely have reams of bugs to fix from the real, internal beta they ran before this phony one.
    Ideally that would be true, but based on the Rohan beta I can assure you that it wasn't even close to feature complete when it started (not by my definition at least). Key NPCs missing, quests not completable, endgame (Hytbold) only implemented after half of beta was over already. Mounted combat was there, but barely playable (not talking about lags here).
    And this time they not only have new content, but also a total class rework, a changed threat concept and a new instance system. I don't want to imagine how much of that actually worked at the start of this beta.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by trancejeremy View Post
    The whole point of a beta is that it's feature complete. All that is left is tweaking. The programmers likely have reams of bugs to fix from the real, internal beta they ran before this phony one.
    I partly agree with you.

    In theory, by the time something reaches beta, I would have hoped the devs had been listening to user feedback via whatever means they lay at the users disposal (in this case things like the suggestion forums and comments to dev diaries etc ) .

    Or to put it another way, my way of thinking, beta should be more of a bug finding exercise than anything else.

    I haven't a clue what's going on in Lotros beta, but reading sapiences comments, if there has been literally 1000s of changes that weren't simply bug fixes, if the hunter class has been changed entirely from what the beta players said, it kind of looks like it maybe wasn't quite ready for beta?

    Surely before devs spend months and months designing and implementing changes/new things, they need player input. And way before it reaches beta stage, those players with access to the earlier stages should be saying if there's any problems with the design etc.

    Presuming the last round of hunter changes that were listed from beta players took place during the last month (based on the beta key give-away ads for facebook), it's a little worrying that this close to release, players are having to tell the devs to change things.

    Nothing wrong with that way of working to a point, it happens everywhere, but I do agree with trancejeremy that by the time it gets to beta, it should be about bug testing what's been given to us.

    Closed beta when there's still loads of bugs that needs finding, open beta when they're confident most have been ironed out and they want to see how the servers handle the load.

    Looking at how buggy the previous release was, I wonder whether a similar thing happened there, and if so, maybe what's happening is that beta players are spending too much time doing other things rather than trying all the content to look for bugs?

    Who knows.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by StarLightning View Post
    We all have different reason for not participating in Beta. What is yours?

    • Because there is already enough potential for disappointment in real life.
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  17. #17
    Sapience is offline Former Community Manager & Harbinger of Soon
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    Quote Originally Posted by trancejeremy View Post
    This is not a real beta test. This is all about marketing and revenue. They are getting paid by some Facebook company. Players give the facebook company their personal info, it gets sold to other companies, and Turbine gets a fee.

    The whole point of a beta is that it's feature complete. All that is left is tweaking. The programmers likely have reams of bugs to fix from the real, internal beta they ran before this phony one.
    A lot of false or inaccurate things get posted to forums, but this has to be one of the most inaccurate I've ever seen. For starters, no one makes anything off the facebook key give aways. It's a tool we use. Just like we use a third party for Surveys, sending out offers via email, we also use a third party tool to do FB promotions and give aways. I could never give away thousands of keys manually, but through that tool it's as simple as 'load it up and turn it on'. We can actually do a lot of things with it because it's like a big swiss army knife. They have twitter tools,too. You'll probably see more of them in the future. In fact, later today is likely.
    So on a scale of 1 to 5 with 5 being pure truth and 1 being complete fantasy, this one scores a 1.

    As for beta, again, dead wrong. Another 1 on the scale. Beta has been incredible this year. So far the participation exceeds that of Rohan at nearly every level, thousands of changes (without exaggeration) have been made, and I suspect there are a lot more coming before release. In fact, using hunter as an example, the last round of changes to the Hunter were lifted almost entirely from the comments of Beta players.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Sapience View Post
    A lot of false or inaccurate things get posted to forums, but this has to be one of the most inaccurate I've ever seen. For starters, no one makes anything off the facebook key give aways. It's a tool we use. Just like we use a third party for Surveys, sending out offers via email, we also use a third party tool to do FB promotions and give aways. I could never give away thousands of keys manually, but through that tool it's as simple as 'load it up and turn it on'. We can actually do a lot of things with it because it's like a big swiss army knife. They have twitter tools,too. You'll probably see more of them in the future. In fact, later today is likely.
    So on a scale of 1 to 5 with 5 being pure truth and 1 being complete fantasy, this one scores a 1.

    As for beta, again, dead wrong. Another 1 on the scale. Beta has been incredible this year. So far the participation exceeds that of Rohan at nearly every level, thousands of changes (without exaggeration) have been made, and I suspect there are a lot more coming before release. In fact, using hunter as an example, the last round of changes to the Hunter were lifted almost entirely from the comments of Beta players.
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  19. #19
    I was in the Palantir Preview program a few years ago as well as the Rohan beta, so I can personally attest to what Sapience is saying -- betas are real, and they do pay attention to player's feedback. In fact it can be personally rewarding to know that a bug you encountered and reported got fixed before the upgrade got released to the masses.

    On topic to what the OP posted, if you take a beta seriously and are looking for problems that need fixing rather then just viewing it as way to get a preview of the next patch or expansion, then it can be a fair amount of work, as well as a bit frustrating trying to work around things that aren't finished or aren't working properly. If you are beta testing a story line or a leveling experience, then it won't be quite as exciting as when it gets released since you are bound to run into bugs or unfinished content in the beta, and of course when it does get released, you will have seen most of the content before. The flip side is that you get to help out with making the game more enjoyable whether it's by finding bugs, or simply providing valuable feedback on features. This isn't unique to LotRO -- I had the same experience beta testing a couple of other MMOs several years ago.

    Of course the above only applies to people who've been in a beta before. I would image that for most people who haven't been in a beta before, the reason for not being in the current beta is simply because they weren't invited...

  20. #20
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    I feel like I've posted this before, but answering OP just in case... I love beta testing. My biggest frustration in playing games is finding bugs. I keep thinking... If I can find this, how could it possibly get past a professional tester (someone that gets paid for quality assurance). I've helped 2 companies beta test (for free, of course) and I've helped a few modders with some significant projects.

    The thing is though, I also love playing games. So if the beta isn't rewarding, I'd just as soon play the real game. When I beta tested on previous LOTRO builds, it wasn't rewarding. I would post tons of bugs only to see them carry on to live and last for months if not years. (and I'm not talking about personal preferences... things that are clearly defined as not working correctly). I can't attest as to whether things have improved or not as this was at least a year ago or more, but it felt like beta was nothing more than a stress test. I'll very likely give beta another shot in hopes that things are working differently now as I really do enjoy helping to make a product release bug-free.

    If, beta testing isn't inherently fun (the reward being the help I'm providing), then I expect to be rewarded in other ways to justify my time away from other games. So, if I was on someone's payroll, I'll test whatever they want, whenever they want, as much as they want, how they want, etc... but when I'm on my time, I expect to be part of the process... part of the team. I want details, info, feedback, and I want to see that my work is making a difference. I have no issues with the NDA, they serve necessary purposes. But if we are going through the hoops on an NDA, then I expect the tools to help my efforts yield very useful results.

    Sorry, couldn't fit this into a bullet.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapience View Post
    A lot of false or inaccurate things get posted to forums, but this has to be one of the most inaccurate I've ever seen. For starters, no one makes anything off the facebook key give aways. It's a tool we use. Just like we use a third party for Surveys, sending out offers via email, we also use a third party tool to do FB promotions and give aways. I could never give away thousands of keys manually, but through that tool it's as simple as 'load it up and turn it on'. We can actually do a lot of things with it because it's like a big swiss army knife. They have twitter tools,too. You'll probably see more of them in the future. In fact, later today is likely.
    So on a scale of 1 to 5 with 5 being pure truth and 1 being complete fantasy, this one scores a 1.

    As for beta, again, dead wrong. Another 1 on the scale. Beta has been incredible this year. So far the participation exceeds that of Rohan at nearly every level, thousands of changes (without exaggeration) have been made, and I suspect there are a lot more coming before release. In fact, using hunter as an example, the last round of changes to the Hunter were lifted almost entirely from the comments of Beta players.
    And there ya go. Cold hard facts to combat conspiracy theories!
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  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymphonic View Post
    And there ya go. Cold hard facts to combat conspiracy theories!

    In this day and age the more one says something is completely false in reality the closer to the truth it really is. It's called spin. I never saw one fact all I saw was some numbers with no facts backing them up. So don't stop thinking about conspiracy theories quite yet. Lets wait and see what is said after the nda is lifted.
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  23. #23
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    I'm afraid my hamster won't be able to handle two LOTRO's, along with the other games I have installed.
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  24. #24
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    Entered beta, realized within five minutes upon trying to re-spec my toon that this expansion and its class changes most likely signified the end of my enjoyment of playing this game, decided that I would much rather enjoy the few weeks of playtime I had left.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amberjack View Post
    Entered beta, realized within five minutes upon trying to re-spec my toon that this expansion and its class changes most likely signified the end of my enjoyment of playing this game, decided that I would much rather enjoy the few weeks of playtime I had left.
    To be honest, I don't think your being fair.

    Personally I prefer the current system to the new system, however when I play the new system each beta, the more I do so, the more I emjoy it.

    It does however feel like playing a completely different character.

    But there's no way after 5 mins you can really make a rational descision as any change will be a shock to the system. Some of the beta players hate the new system, some love it. I respect both parties descsisioins, however most of those that dislike the changes, have persevered through all the betas, given constructive feedback, and some have changed their minds and while they still prefer the current system, say they will be happy playing the new system after all the changes.

    My point being, everyone's entitled to their opinion whether they love or hate it, but you cant really make that decision after a 5 min try when your not even sure how the new skills work etc.

    Give it a proper try, you may find yourself pleasantly surprised, you may not, but at least give it a fair trial.

    I hated it at first but after speaking to my old kin leader who is also in beta and he explained how some of the things work and why they were needed, I ended up changing my mind and pre-ordered helms deep.

 

 
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