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  1. #1
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    Red face Fellowship sparing! :D

    Helloz! It's me again and I know a lot of us LOVE sparing!

    Now I'd ask for sparing in bree but I know it makes a lot of lag for bree...so I understand! ^_^
    But what about fellowship sparing? if you said two fellowships can spar that'd be AWESOME to have a 3vs3 fight or more! I just think it's a fun idea I should throw out there! ;D

    From me

  2. #2
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    It's been requested many times. Fine by me, although I'd request that they whisk the sparring fellowships off to an instance so they won't cause lag for the people in that area.

    Khafar

  3. #3
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    Presumably, the fellowship leaders would initiate the fellowship spar.

    What happens if a member of the fellowship has the "no spar requests" flag set? Does the fellowship spar override that? Does that bar the leader from offering or accepting a spar request? Does everyone that doesn't have flag set that way get into the spar? Does each individual have to accept (or decline) for themselves?

    Whether one likes or dislikes the idea, implementation would be a very messy process.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by whheydt View Post
    Presumably, the fellowship leaders would initiate the fellowship spar.

    What happens if a member of the fellowship has the "no spar requests" flag set? Does the fellowship spar override that? Does that bar the leader from offering or accepting a spar request? Does everyone that doesn't have flag set that way get into the spar? Does each individual have to accept (or decline) for themselves?

    Whether one likes or dislikes the idea, implementation would be a very messy process.
    Having questions doesn't prove it would be messy. Here's a potential straight-forward solution to your dilemma: when a person with 'no spar requests' joins a fellowship with sparring on, or when such a person is in a fellowship and the fellowship turns on fellowship sparring, they get a notification. If they choose to remain in the fellowship, they are accepting that fellowship spars could happen.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Torathon View Post
    Having questions doesn't prove it would be messy. Here's a potential straight-forward solution to your dilemma: when a person with 'no spar requests' joins a fellowship with sparring on, or when such a person is in a fellowship and the fellowship turns on fellowship sparring, they get a notification. If they choose to remain in the fellowship, they are accepting that fellowship spars could happen.
    If implemented that way, it would be an extremely quick way for me to drop out of said fellowship, and I rather doubt that I'm alone in that opinion.

    I can see it now...
    /glff LFM to do XXX. Fellowship spar is ON.
    <crickets>

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Torathon View Post
    Having questions doesn't prove it would be messy. Here's a potential straight-forward solution to your dilemma: when a person with 'no spar requests' joins a fellowship with sparring on, or when such a person is in a fellowship and the fellowship turns on fellowship sparring, they get a notification. If they choose to remain in the fellowship, they are accepting that fellowship spars could happen.

    Oh god no. I would hate to be in a PUG somewhere and run into this situation when I joined the PUG for an actual quest. Just make some kind of instance finder where several people can go at it, it's much easier. The other way is no different than getting booted out of a fellowship.
    Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"
    Continuing the never ending battle to keep Lobelia Sackville-Baggins in check

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by whheydt View Post
    If implemented that way, it would be an extremely quick way for me to drop out of said fellowship, and I rather doubt that I'm alone in that opinion.
    You're not, although I'd probably just drop fellowship if it entered a sparring session when I didn't want to (i.e. 99% of the time). I doubt that spontaneous fellowship sparring would really be all that common.

    What I'd prefer is to see a unanimous confirmation requirement for each fellowship - it will only begin if all people remaining in the fellowship Agree to a sparring session. That would mean that the leader of a fellowship could prevent any sparring from happening (by simply refusing to Agree), but if the leader and others really wanted to spar, they could not be denied - the leader would simply kick anyone who did not Agree (and didn't drop on their own), and off they'd go.

    Khafar

  8. #8
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    I would drop group immediately if sparring were on - I dislike all forms of PVP. I keep the spar decline thing on for a reason. This topic kinda makes me wonder how many people really do like sparring though, I'd be interested in knowing.
    ****************************** ****
    Happy homeowner on Landroval and Laurelin!
    ****************************** ****

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zoraine View Post
    I would drop group immediately if sparring were on - I dislike all forms of PVP. I keep the spar decline thing on for a reason. This topic kinda makes me wonder how many people really do like sparring though, I'd be interested in knowing.
    Very likely not nearly as many as the pro-sparring people think, and probably more than the anti-sparring people think.

    I suspect it's very much like PvMPers and Raiders...not more than 10%. (And probably overlaps both of those groups.)

    (I don't have any data to support any particular value for the number of sparrers. The above guess is just that...a guess. If anyone has decent data on the subject, they are welcome to share.)

  10. #10
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    Thumbs down

    Awesome! If this get implemented i will have another option to go solo. As i don't like to waste my time sparing, i will leave any fellow that accept a spar. I already leave fellow if i join (for example) the Fornost run they announced but they open Sambrog without ask if i agree. Because i am not up to be forced to do something i don't want.
    Is this Alternate Playable Character Disorder? :

    Check my Kinship at Gladden server: The Fate of Middle Earth

  11. #11
    I can't speak for anyone else, but I'd never start a PUG for instances and then find another fellowship to spar. If something came up, I'd ask and use the Ready-Check to be considerate. When in the mood for a large spar, the PUG would be advertised as such. Any leader doing otherwise is just going to find themselves without a group.

    I'd keep it simple and have the players personal spar flag trump all.

  12. #12
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    I have to agree with Disparia. There is no way anything should override that flag. This fellowship sparring function, if it were to exist, would need to have a ready check sort of screen, perhaps similar to what we do with the Instance Finder. People with spars auto declined would, well, auto decline on that. The leader would be free to dismiss them, I suppose.

    This is another opt in versus opt out. People need to opt in for this. Doing it any other way is wrong.
    Bruuwnor, Dwarf Champion of Arkenstone, Pipeweed and Ale

  13. #13
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    I would totally support this. So what, some people don't like pvmp/pvp then sure, an opt out option is a must. As far as I see, fellowship sparring could help inspire newer players with lower leveled toons to get that sub to get in the moors, or at the least aid players to better learn their toons without risking an embarrassing death inside a group instance situation. Kinships, especially RP groups, could have oodles of fun with this too. A major appeal of LotRO for me and many others is the social aspect of the game, giving another option to expand and encourage socializing (and grouping in general) is always a plus.


    ... that being said, implementing anything "new" should never take precedence over fixing and preserving the "old"... (Looking at you, Turbine)...

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by whheydt View Post
    I suspect it's very much like PvMPers and Raiders...not more than 10%.
    Well, as with those other percentages, it would be helpful to know what's being measured. I mean... I've done both PvMP and raids in LOTRO, although my last for either was like 4 years ago (so I wouldn't expect to be included in those percentages).

    If you're counting regular sparring, I seriously doubt it's even 10%. It's going to be most common in the social hubs of the game, and I just don't see it all that often. I can't imagine that fellowship sparring would be all that common either, particularly once the "newness" has worn off.

    Khafar

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Annorwen View Post
    I would totally support this. So what, some people don't like pvmp/pvp then sure, an opt out option is a must.
    There already is an "opt out". What some are saying is that a spar request/accept at the group (fellowship) level should NOT override the individual selection. The question then becomes, should a fellowship spar request/acceptance even be allowed if there are people in the fellowship with the sparring flag set off? Should the sparring just cover everyone else? Should the sparring automatically remove those opted out from their fellowship?

    Those questions, and many more, would need to be resolved before a fellowship spar system could be implemented. That's why I said that setting this up would be "messy". There are a lot of issues and edge cases that have to be considered before the system can be coded.

    As far as I see, fellowship sparring could help inspire newer players with lower leveled toons to get that sub to get in the moors, or at the least aid players to better learn their toons without risking an embarrassing death inside a group instance situation. Kinships, especially RP groups, could have oodles of fun with this too. A major appeal of LotRO for me and many others is the social aspect of the game, giving another option to expand and encourage socializing (and grouping in general) is always a plus.
    I fail to see that a fellowship spar system would do anything to encourage PvMP activity. Or are you asserting that the existing sparring system promotes PvMP now? And, if so, how? (And how do you know that the existing sparring system doesn't drive people *away* from PvMP?)

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by whheydt View Post
    If implemented that way, it would be an extremely quick way for me to drop out of said fellowship, and I rather doubt that I'm alone in that opinion.

    I can see it now...
    /glff LFM to do XXX. Fellowship spar is ON.
    <crickets>
    Here's how I imagine this conflict being resolved.

    '...Fellowship spar is ON.'
    You: Oh, sorry guys, I didn't know you were a sparring fellowship. I really can't stand sparring.
    Fellowship Member 1: That's too bad.
    Fellowsship Member 2: Aw, sparring is awesome. Come on.
    You: No seriously I'm not sticking around if you guys are going to be sparring.
    Fellowship Leader Possibility 1: Sorry man I should have let you know sparring is a big part of our fellowship. I wish you luck in finding another one.
    Fellowship Leader Possibility 2: No worries, we won't do any sparring while you're playing with us.

  17. #17
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    I think everyone most everyone fails to see that things like this don't just pop up at turbine! the very idea of sparing 1v1 even had some problems to it like this!

    The easy solution would be (In my eyes at least)
    Everyone gets a spar request and those who decline stay out of the felly spar....simple as that...
    No as saying it'd make the moors less popular is a valid reason...but just saying "if they had it I'd drop out of my felly" isn't.
    just because YOU don't like it doesn't mean others don't ether.
    you KNOW of Turbine put it in they'd make a personal decline so those who DON'T like it don't have to do it!

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReadStar View Post
    just because YOU don't like it doesn't mean others don't ether.
    I don't think anyone here has made such a claim. Indeed, it's pretty well known that some people just love to spar. They also, unfortunately, seem to love to spar in otherwise crowded areas where everyone else if going about their own business. For some unfathomable reason, some people appear to think that all those are around them are eager to drop whatever it is they're doing just to watch two characters spar.

    you KNOW of Turbine put it in they'd make a personal decline so those who DON'T like it don't have to do it!
    We already *have* an "(automatic) personal decline". The issue with a fellowship spar is: How does having the personal decline set interact with someone else setting a fellowship spar going? Does the fellowship action (spar start) override the individual setting (no spars) or what? The decisions of how to handle those sorts of issues are what make such a feature nontrivial to develop.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by whheydt View Post
    I don't think anyone here has made such a claim. Indeed, it's pretty well known that some people just love to spar. They also, unfortunately, seem to love to spar in otherwise crowded areas where everyone else if going about their own business. For some unfathomable reason, some people appear to think that all those are around them are eager to drop whatever it is they're doing just to watch two characters spar.



    We already *have* an "(automatic) personal decline". The issue with a fellowship spar is: How does having the personal decline set interact with someone else setting a fellowship spar going? Does the fellowship action (spar start) override the individual setting (no spars) or what? The decisions of how to handle those sorts of issues are what make such a feature nontrivial to develop.
    Sorry for quoting all of what you said but I don't know how to JUST quote 1 part...but ANYcase...

    The way I'd see it is everyone in each fellowship would get a Spar invite...those who decline would just not be in the fellowship spar. yes this could result in everyone but 1 person saying no and the other team has a 4 vs 1 fight...also maybe they could have something to even the odds? like if it WERE to be a 4 vs 1 the 1 that fights 4 peeps would be as powerful as all 4 of them so there could be a fair fight? idk...but this is something turbine should look into...

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReadStar View Post
    Sorry for quoting all of what you said but I don't know how to JUST quote 1 part...but ANYcase...
    Just delete the text you don't want to quote.

    The way I'd see it is everyone in each fellowship would get a Spar invite...those who decline would just not be in the fellowship spar. yes this could result in everyone but 1 person saying no and the other team has a 4 vs 1 fight...also maybe they could have something to even the odds? like if it WERE to be a 4 vs 1 the 1 that fights 4 peeps would be as powerful as all 4 of them so there could be a fair fight? idk...but this is something turbine should look into...
    The way to flag works now is that, if you have set it not to accept spar requests, you never even see them. Given you version, one would presume that those with the spar flag off wouldn't see the spar request. All they'd see would be one or more of their fellows suddenly fighting some other PCs.

    Now suppose I am running character A1 and I have friend A2 through A4. I form up Fellowship A with them. I invite in character A5, who I happen to know keeps his sparring flag set to allow spars. The rest of us quietly set our sparring flags off. As leader, I challenge Fellowship B (where B1 through B6 are known to me and I know they all keep the spar flag set to accept). All of a sudden, A6 is fighting B1 through B6.

    What I'm getting at here is that *any* game feature that can be abused *will* be abused. Features should be designed to minimize the ways in which a feature can be abused. Even the current sparring system can be and is abused. One method is for an experienced player to send a spar request to a brand new character just coming out of intro instance. New players (and some old players) are not likely have made sure that the spar flag is off that early, and may hit the wrong key at the wrong time and find themselves get splattered across the landscape of Archet before they figure out what is going on. Indeed, I think the spar flag should default to "off" for new characters.

    The basic point is...if you can't think of a way that a feature can be abused, you haven't thought through that feature enough.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by whheydt View Post
    The basic point is...if you can't think of a way that a feature can be abused, you haven't thought through that feature enough.

    If it's in an MMO, it can be abused. Players will find a way.
    Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"
    Continuing the never ending battle to keep Lobelia Sackville-Baggins in check

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReadStar View Post
    ...
    The way I'd see it is everyone in each fellowship would get a Spar invite...those who decline would just not be in the fellowship spar. yes this could result in everyone but 1 person saying no and the other team has a 4 vs 1 fight...also maybe they could have something to even the odds? like if it WERE to be a 4 vs 1 the 1 that fights 4 peeps would be as powerful as all 4 of them so there could be a fair fight? idk...but this is something turbine should look into...
    That sounds like too much fuss and bother for them to change how fellowships work and rig it to "even the odds" when it's not even likely to be popular. I like the fact that PVP is pretty much out of sight out of mind in this game - I don't really want to have to stand around and wait so people can spar - blechhh!
    ****************************** ****
    Happy homeowner on Landroval and Laurelin!
    ****************************** ****

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by whheydt View Post

    What I'm getting at here is that *any* game feature that can be abused *will* be abused.
    very true... I hate to say it but when making an idea or something you always have to think of people as raving lunatics that'll steal your soul and sell it for 5¢

    P.S. Notice I only quoted part of you!

  24. #24
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    When Turbine stops making money off Creeps, this will be the next thing.

    "When"

  25. #25
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    I personally have no interest in sparring but if enough people want it, the simple solution is to create a 'Training Hall' (similar to the bear brawl room) where fellowship sparring is allowed and only players in the hall can join a fellowship spar. That way, if you are not there, you aren't dragged into a fellowship spar. Problem solved.

 

 
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