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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by robbie1435 View Post
    This game has already been made as easy as possible.
    I've advocated this idea in the past, and here's why. All those masses of plaeyrs who think the sole purpose of the game is to level as fast as possible would get it over with in minutes, and then would leave the game. Thus fewer people around to annoy us by saying "ding!" all the time, fewer people asking us to help power level them, and so forth. Similarly, people who think the sole point of the game is an extensive end game with all previous content as useless filler will more quickly find out that this game is not for them. After all that, we'd be left mostly with players who enjoy player the game at all levels, while Turbine rakes in a lot of profits from the power levelers.

  2. #102
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    I agree that pushing a new player from 0 to end game in a single go is not a good idea,
    you would end up with a lvl 95 hobbit wandering around in the shire wondering where to go.
    (Technically one can already reach end game level by simply farming in hobbiton - though it is not quite instantaneous)
    Other than geographical disorientation and a lack of feeling for the basics (which may be made up for by previous MMO experience),
    one would be missing out key game mechanics that where introcuced to us with some context, like LIs or mounted combat.

    Levelling someone partially does make sense: just bump him to 50 and drop a free map to echad dunan in their pocket.
    L50-95 still gives plenty of time to get to know your basic skills as good as someone who did not skip anything.
    A bunch of things will be changed now, some of it major, e.g. threat mechanics.
    We get only 10 lvls to adapt, should we wipe and start over again?

    Regardless: most levelling happens solo, end game content is grouped, play styles are different and you do most of your end game learning when you get there.
    In this sense, big battles may become a good thing. Levelling people will get more opportunities to find people to group with
    (for example: before there was no point in a 43 and a 54 grouping, now they can do a BB together - without 'bothering' end gamers),
    and may be more familiar with grouping by the time they get a 95 next to their name.

    Personally, i would not bother with auto-ups as i like the (minor) sense of achievement from getting there all by myself and enjoy trying things from different angles.
    Yet i can imagine there are people who do not care about that - who would prefer to play with a big set of skills from the get go - who do not feel like transporting a 6th set of bad pies all over the shire - who cannot stand daylight and want to disappear in the depths of Moria.
    Last edited by Maligree; Oct 24 2013 at 07:52 AM.
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  3. #103
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    Lots of you are basing your opinions on a pve prespective, which is fine ofcourse. I see most of you guys are saying you will be autolvled to 95 and you have nothing else to do.

    However this is not true in the case of us engame/pvpers lvl95 is just the beginning of the game, once reaching cap we can actually pvp and enjoy for months to come.
    This is why in my opinion pvp > pve, we rarely ever need new content. Heck we had the same pvp map for the past 7years and still playing.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by KMUCHa View Post
    Lots of you are basing your opinions on a pve prespective, which is fine ofcourse. I see most of you guys are saying you will be autolvled to 95 and you have nothing else to do.

    However this is not true in the case of us engame/pvpers lvl95 is just the beginning of the game, once reaching cap we can actually pvp and enjoy for months to come.
    Just remember, the PvP population is less than 10% of the game... It wouldn't bring in a positive revenue if only 10% of the game used it.

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  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by robbie1435 View Post
    Just remember, the PvP population is less than 10% of the game... It wouldn't bring in a positive revenue if only 10% of the game used it.
    So you already know what it would cost to develop that feature, how much it would be sold for in the store on top of how many times it might get bought?
    That was pretty quick .

    But seriously:

    With the right price tag and maybe some restrictions (like only up until the last expansion level, have a cost tag that is at least the amount of quest packs that you bypass, maybe bind it the restriction of having at least another character at that or higher level, etc...) I do not have a problem with that.

    In my eyes people just bypass the game like that but for them the game is something else so who am I to decide what the game is for them.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by monk_tbd View Post
    So you already know what it would cost to develop that feature, how much it would be sold for in the store on top of how many times it might get bought?
    That was pretty quick .

    But seriously:

    With the right price tag and maybe some restrictions (like only up until the last expansion level, have a cost tag that is at least the amount of quest packs that you bypass, maybe bind it the restriction of having at least another character at that or higher level, etc...) I do not have a problem with that.

    In my eyes people just bypass the game like that but for them the game is something else so who am I to decide what the game is for them.
    ANYTHING that only 10% of the game would really badly want will not bring a good revenue... Simple logic.

    Glorgnorbor
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  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by robbie1435 View Post
    Just remember, the PvP population is less than 10% of the game... It wouldn't bring in a positive revenue if only 10% of the game used it.

    Glorgnorbor
    Happy Halloween!
    Use your brain then, on how to increase revenue from all aspects of the game

    First even 1$ increases revenue. You are completely wrong by saying pvpers wouldn't or doesn't bring "positive"revenue (whatever that means). Allowing this feature would make pvpers and some pve players to buy it. Pvpers also subscribe (including me) just for pvp so their is $$, and pvpers often buy turbine points for pay2win skills.


    Now lets talk about them lifetimers, what kind of revenue do they bring exactly? There are exemptions of course of those who are lifetimers but still buy stuff to support the game, but most just get their 500tp every month and buy expansions and the like with it.

    Ya them 10% pvpers eh? Simple logic...

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by KMUCHa View Post
    Use your brain then, on how to increase revenue from all aspects of the game

    First even 1$ increases revenue.
    A)That one dollar starts filling the bucket on the costs
    B)Some people will grind TP on alts for it.
    C)It's not positive revenue until the original bucket is overflowing, with more that prior to implementing it.

    Glorgnorbor
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  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by robbie1435 View Post
    ANYTHING that only 10% of the game would really badly want will not bring a good revenue... Simple logic.
    So let's say the item costs like 4000TP maybe more.
    Let's say 1000 players would buy it (which is far less than 10% of the player base)
    That is 4 million TP right away.

    How many stones of the tortoise have been sold? What would be your guess?
    8000? More than that? Less?

    How many horses have been bought in the store?

    Overall we do not know what measures Turbine uses for projected sales in TP currency for a certain item and how that would translate to how much a projected development would be allowed to cost to be seen as cost effective.
    We even less know how difficult it would be to implement such a feature (i.e. e.g. a consumable that gives you X amount of XP).

    Simple logic tells me that it is not that simple to put into a simple phrase without knowing the details.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by monk_tbd View Post
    So let's say the item costs like 4000TP maybe more.
    Let's say 1000 players would buy it (which is far less than 10% of the player base)
    That is 4 million TP right away.

    How many stones of the tortoise have been sold? What would be your guess?
    8000? More than that? Less?

    How many horses have been bought in the store?

    Overall we do not know what measures Turbine uses for projected sales in TP currency for a certain item and how that would translate to how much a projected development would be allowed to cost to be seen as cost effective.
    We even less know how difficult it would be to implement such a feature (i.e. e.g. a consumable that gives you X amount of XP).

    Simple logic tells me that it is not that simple to put into a simple phrase without knowing the details.
    I wouldn't debate with him tbh, clearly he doesn't want this feature and would say ridiculous things to stop it. Just move on with him.
    We know that from a financial stand point it would increase their revenue, now debating on the effects of making this feature live is another thing which could be debated.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by monk_tbd View Post
    So let's say the item costs like 4000TP maybe more.
    Let's say 1000 players would buy it (which is far less than 10% of the player base)
    That is 4 million TP right away.

    How many stones of the tortoise have been sold? What would be your guess?
    8000? More than that? Less?

    How many horses have been bought in the store?

    Overall we do not know what measures Turbine uses for projected sales in TP currency for a certain item and how that would translate to how much a projected development would be allowed to cost to be seen as cost effective.
    We even less know how difficult it would be to implement such a feature (i.e. e.g. a consumable that gives you X amount of XP).

    Simple logic tells me that it is not that simple to put into a simple phrase without knowing the details.
    Just because someone pays TP for it, doesn't mean they got it with cash... You can easily get 4k tp from deeds. The ones who just hoard TP from deeds for this wouldn't pay a cent.
    Just because 1000 players buy it, doesn't mean that all that tp came from cash.

    Glorgnorbor
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  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by KMUCHa View Post
    I wouldn't debate with him tbh, clearly he doesn't want this feature and would say ridiculous things to stop it. Just move on with him.
    We know that from a financial stand point it would increase their revenue, now debating on the effects of making this feature live is another thing which could be debated.
    I don't want it, you're right. But that's not why I'm giving a business stand point

    Glorgnorbor
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  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by robbie1435 View Post
    Just because someone pays TP for it, doesn't mean they got it with cash... You can easily get 4k tp from deeds. The ones who just hoard TP from deeds for this wouldn't pay a cent.
    Just because 1000 players buy it, doesn't mean that all that tp came from cash.
    This argument is the same for EVERY item in the store especially ones that are store exclusive.
    It is not a valid argument at all in this discussion.

    This is why I mentioned that Turbine has some metrics to say 1000 TP spent (projected) equals 1$ of development (projected) or something like that (fill in your own numbers of course as mine are pulled from thin air).

    Every TP spent is somewhat calculated to cash income. It is of course not the 100TP = 1$ to factor in all TP that are earned during playing the game.
    Even worse will be the number of how many TP you would need to earn to justify a certain development.
    And then of course pricing is always difficult especially for high prices items.

    And again the Stone of the Tortoise says hello.
    We are talking about something very similar and one has been implemented and one has not.

    Besides any possible development costs we also have the question whether Turbine wants such an item at all (besides any possible revenue that cold eventually be made with it) and people put forth arguments why they might not want such an item.

  14. #114
    Kind-of interesting. I suppose I could go with people being able to buy a level-50 character from Turbine. Still leaves them having to grind all the deeds though, or else that just wouldn't be fair, lol. I hate doing deeds.

    But as far as people being able to join Big Battles as early as level 10. I'm not sure if they are auto-granted all skills or not, or how that works, but it would seem to me that they would be at a disadvantage if they did all the sudden have all these skills that they don't know how to use. Plus, I wouldn't want to have to rely on them for my group to be successful.
    For the more "hard-core" raiders, I'm hoping there is an option to go in with a pre-formed raid group similar to skraids, and also to be able to set difficulty level so that the rewards are worth the effort. If the rewards are worth the effort, then and only then will these big battles be a "replacement" for a traditional multi-boss raid. (Even though it still won't be a true replacement, it could at least give a sense of accomplishment and rewards that are worth the effort.......again, hypothesizing, as I don't have any experience with these new big battles.)

    Anyhoo, it's ironic, people want to get to "endgame", but I'm in a kin where we are all xp-disabling at level 50 to enjoy all the quality content that was around in Shadows of Angmar. You just don't get all the tons of content that is available at level 50 at any other level increment in the game (65, 75, 85...). SoA is where you can enjoy a lot more content on-level and there is replayability factor. Now, ofcourse, I already have a few level 85s, so I've known the grass isn't greener on the other side, so I guess others will have to find that out for themselves. But it's just too bad everyone is in a rush to get to max level, then getting bored, and not taking some time to enjoy the level 50 content that was the best the game had to offer in my opinion.

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuddler View Post
    Still leaves them having to grind all the deeds though, or else that just wouldn't be fair, lol. I hate doing deeds.
    Deeds are so much easier if they're done while playing the game normally. Ie, do all the quests in a zone and you'll have a lot of deeds finished and a lot of deeds well on their way to being finished. Maybe the one you want may not have made progress but others that are very similar may be completed. If you completely ignore deeds until max level but still do all the quests and fumble around a bit while being lost, do instances when someone wants your help, do skirmishes with friends for fun, then you will still have a usable set of virtues to use even if they're not maxed out.

    I have maxed out deeds on a few of my characters, and I HATE grinding and still advise against it. The ones who complain about the grinding the most often seem to be those who skipped a lot of content, or else are focusing on one specific deed (must have zeal and will not deviate from the goal of getting zeal until it's done). If you do want to grind, go with someone and don't do it alone or you'll go crazy. Make a game out of it, do other deeds at the same time, get those quests done at the same time, etc.

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lohi View Post
    Deeds are so much easier if they're done while playing the game normally. Ie, do all the quests in a zone and you'll have a lot of deeds finished and a lot of deeds well on their way to being finished. Maybe the one you want may not have made progress but others that are very similar may be completed. If you completely ignore deeds until max level but still do all the quests and fumble around a bit while being lost, do instances when someone wants your help, do skirmishes with friends for fun, then you will still have a usable set of virtues to use even if they're not maxed out.

    I have maxed out deeds on a few of my characters, and I HATE grinding and still advise against it. The ones who complain about the grinding the most often seem to be those who skipped a lot of content, or else are focusing on one specific deed (must have zeal and will not deviate from the goal of getting zeal until it's done). If you do want to grind, go with someone and don't do it alone or you'll go crazy. Make a game out of it, do other deeds at the same time, get those quests done at the same time, etc.
    So true, so very true. I go crazy every time I do deeds by myself. /shudder.
    Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"
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  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lohi View Post
    Deeds are so much easier if they're done while playing the game normally. Ie, do all the quests in a zone and you'll have a lot of deeds finished and a lot of deeds well on their way to being finished.
    Not fully true, you will indeed often get the T1 of the deed completed, but with the exception of orc / goblin slayer deeds you will rarely get any T2s without grinding.
    I am pretty sure that questing normally you will not kill all the slugs in the shire or the sickle flies in bree, not even thinking about giants in evendim, trollshaws, misty mountains.

    Personally i do not mind a bit of deed grinding: quickly killing a few 10s of mobs while waiting for an appointment / for your microwave to announce the pizza is done - doing something while looking for a group rather than standing about in forlaw - doing something that gives a feeling of permanent progression just before an expansion when current instance loot will soon be obsolete.
    ... Anyway, if one is already paying lots to skip all low level content, one may just as well buy all the needed virtues in the store too.


    Regarding the pvp argument above ... about 10% of the people do play about in pvp, and i get the feeling that - on average - moors people do frequent the store somewhat more often.
    (actually i seems that the relative pvp fraction of players online during the slow time just before an expansion is higher than that - even i myself have ventured to kill a couple of orcs and wargs)
    That in no way means you have a convincing market for a pve bypass.
    There are very few pure pvp freeps, most do enjoy some pve just as well (in moderate doses) ... and i dont think they would fancy teaming up with someone freshly out of archet, even if he has a 95 label.
    If you really want to play only pvp, without levelling or gear/deed grinding, having practically everything available from the store ... then you have to sacrifice your looks.
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  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by robbie1435 View Post
    I don't want it, you're right. But that's not why I'm giving a business stand point
    There are many good arguments why this is a bad idea. The business standpoint isn't one of them.

    The actual cost to program a feature like this is really not all that bad. Given the fact that it can sit around in the store for an unlimited period of time to recoup those costs, it's almost a no brainer if you're looking at it from a purely economic standpoint.

    While it is true that even at 4,000 or 10,000 TP (Sony charges almost $100 for their auto-level service) for something like this, someone could theoretically grind enough TP to pay for it for free, that argument really applies to the whole store, and if you look at Turbine quadrupling their revenue after that switch, it seems to have gone pretty well. Besides, chances are if this service existed players would:

    1. Not grind out the free TP since it takes forever, so they'll just spend real money to buy the service
    2. OR in the process of grinding, it'll take so long that they'd buy TP on things like deed accelerators
    3. OR Turbine would do it like the expansion pre-orders and make it a cash only purchase
    Last edited by Gedrevn; Oct 25 2013 at 10:21 AM.
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  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by zawiedzony View Post
    When you buy a book you skip the whole content only to check what is at the end page? When you watch TV series do you watch only the last episode? I guess you do, otherwise it would be a waste of time for you going through all the content.
    When you read a really good book 15 times, do you always read the preface again where the author thanks everyone and the world for the helping with some work on the book?

    This is how people who play this game for pvp only feel when it comes to doing the pve content over and over.

    While you and I agree that they miss the game (or what the game is for us) for them the game only starts at max level when they can join the freeps corps in the moors properly.

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by monk_tbd View Post
    When you read a really good book 15 times, do you always read the preface again where the author thanks everyone and the world for the helping with some work on the book?
    I love Lord of the Rings. I've read it once a year since 1983. But there are parts I'm tired of(I can't force myself to read the part with Tom Bombidil), and sometimes I skip to the parts that are my favorites. For example, Sam remembering he has a rope never gets old!
    Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"
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  21. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymphonic View Post
    I love Lord of the Rings. I've read it once a year since 1983. But there are parts I'm tired of(I can't force myself to read the part with Tom Bombidil), and sometimes I skip to the parts that are my favorites. For example, Sam remembering he has a rope never gets old!

    Wayy way OT here Nymphonic, but I figure these forums get a little more views than the OT ones - is there a good , definitive edition of all the books for kindle that you might know of? Family's been pestering me for mid-winter holiday wishes...
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  22. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maligree View Post
    Not fully true, you will indeed often get the T1 of the deed completed, but with the exception of orc / goblin slayer deeds you will rarely get any T2s without grinding.
    The game has changed a lot then, or else players are using guides to help. Granted, if you do the quests efficiently they won't get a lot of deeds done. But on your first time through an area you are normally not efficient. Ie, you return to the same quest giver 10 times, fighting all the way, whereas someone who's done it before may figure out an optimal method that involves the minimum amount of combat to complete the quests.

    Of course this won't completely T2, I didn't say it always would, however for me it was much more typical to be 1/2 of the way through T2 when I decided to see what deeds were unfinished. It also helps if you stick around some areas for some time; ie, level 50 deeds were not hard to complete when level 50 was the level cap and you were in angmar for a long time; today however no one sticks around there longer than a few hours. Also helps if you do the instances, repeat some areas because you're helping friends, etc. Basically, just don't go do deeds merely because they're there, that's boring and will cause players to incorrectly assume the game is all about grinding, or worse make them bored so that they leave.

    I am pretty sure that questing normally you will not kill all the slugs in the shire or the sickle flies in bree, not even thinking about giants in evendim, trollshaws, misty mountains.
    You don't need those deeds either! Another tactic is to decide what virtues to use based upon what you already have mostly completed. Ignore the class guides that say you MUST have some deed maxed out, instead pick something else that you alrady have high and which is a reasonable choice (especially now that some virtues were changed you have more than one choice for tactical mitigation for example). Most guides are written by people assuming that the reader wants the be the best possible PVP/Raid player.

    This was much more an issue back in Shadows of Angmar, because none of the deeds could be maxed out then and there were fewer ways to earn them, so getting from 7 to 8 would have more of a noticeable affect on the player who is intent on raiding. Now though many of those virtues are much easier to get. For example I am getting some basic virtues done just by doing quests in Rohan, getting me from 15 to 16 in a virtue that's perfect for my class. At this point those benefits from virtues really aren't that big as they used to be, when your main stat goes up to 1700 without much effort, then raising the amount you get from a virtue from 30 to 45 is not very much.

    I sometimes get the feeling that people insist on maxed out virtues merely as a way to ensure that the player is properly dedicated to the serious job of end gaming and isn't going to treat it as just something to do for fun.

  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by monk_tbd View Post
    This is how people who play this game for pvp only feel when it comes to doing the pve content over and over.

    While you and I agree that they miss the game (or what the game is for us) for them the game only starts at max level when they can join the freeps corps in the moors properly.

    Finally a post that doesn't isn't tunnel visioned. This person actually reads and understand posts that doesn't agree with his/hers opinion.

  24. #124
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    What it all comes down to is if the bean counters at WB/Turbine feel that enough money would come in from the Return on Investment. Would enough money be made to justify the manpower, time, and money needed to make such a feature?

    It doesn't matter what the players want or do not want when it comes to a feature. What matters is will Turbine make a profit from making this happen.

    Personally, I think not enough people will buy it to offset the development costs. But that is just speculation on my part with no evidence. And NO ONE here in this forum has any evidence or knowledge to accurately answer this.
    Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"
    Continuing the never ending battle to keep Lobelia Sackville-Baggins in check

  25. #125
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    I say this quite often..whats the point of a game if it plays itself for you?
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