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  1. #1
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    Massively Press Preview on Class Revamps

    Crell-L85-Champion - Riddermark ; Swego-L85-Burglar ; Kotvi-L95-Runekeeper
    Delego-L85 Hunter ; Stodden-L51-Captain ; Edhul-L61-Loremaster
    Deglorion - SoA XP Disabler

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Massively article
    If you're one of the players who thought your class played just fine and you liked it, you're not alone. The classes weren't broken, the devs said, but they were bloated
    "Bloat"... I hate that word.
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    [color=limegreen][b]Wulfgrim Ghastban, Hrothwine and Galdrefyst of Rohan - Peckish of the Shire -- Riddermark[/b][/color]
    “I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend” JRRT

  3. #3
    Just saying Fitty, your Signature makes my day
    Sabian- Hunter85
    All warfare is based on deception

  4. #4
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    While we won't see a full list of all of the changes until the expansion releases, the devs have acknowledged that players are hungry for information on the new system and are hoping that this tour will help settle some of those fears.

    Nope, and that effectively torpedoes any chance of a pre-order from me at least.

  5. #5
    There is a good reason the Devs are having sleepless night. It would seem a train wreck is headed our way. So sad to keep revamping such a wonderful game. People want content ,raids and other group runs. Not a new game.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by jparker View Post
    People want content ,raids and other group runs. Not a new game.
    Other people also want character progression. Other people might not care at all about raids and group runs.
    Character progression is something that was just hidden in an LI grind the last couple of extensions besides a few new skills and improved skills.

    I have no idea whether the trees will be good or bad.
    I understand that the devs are worried as am I - I left MMOs because of class changes and I guess I am not alone.
    That is the fear the devs have. If they do a good job with it then their fears will not come true.

  7. #7
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    "With the new UI comes multiple builds. You will start with two builds and be able to purchase more so that any player can have options when it comes to picking a role in his or her adventures"

    now why does that not surprise me in the slightest?

    so you can have the same choices and flexibility you had before these changes, as long as you are willing to pay for it? we dont even get the 3 straight builds we once used to have as standard let alone multiple flexible builds. whats next, you can have your skills back for 495tp a skill? the ability to swap in combat for 995tp?

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Andthelion View Post
    "With the new UI comes multiple builds. You will start with two builds and be able to purchase more so that any player can have options when it comes to picking a role in his or her adventures"

    now why does that not surprise me in the slightest?

    so you can have the same choices and flexibility you had before these changes, as long as you are willing to pay for it? we dont even get the 3 straight builds we once used to have as standard let alone multiple flexible builds. whats next, you can have your skills back for 495tp a skill? the ability to swap in combat for 995tp?
    Builds as in 2 different set-ups of traits that you put together that you can switch on the fly instead of having to go in and replace stuff one at a time. So it is actually an improvement to current where you have to go to a bard, rearrange traits one at a time, and then pay the bard to finalize it.
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  9. #9
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    Exactly, previously we had one trait setup, which you could manually change after traveling to a bard and paying.

    Now there's be two builds you can swap between when out of combat, no more bards (according to a previous 20q). There's still be three traitlines according to the class dev diaries for all classes, of course some of those are completely different than they were previously. Of course, being locked out of some skills not traited means no more saving the group during combat, it'll be wait for wipe, then retrait, do again.

    Also, you of course could change one of those trait setups manually. IE, it'll all be just like the horrible mounted combat trait trees--an improvement to some degree on the current system, where you couldn't save anything.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gohankuten View Post
    Builds as in 2 different set-ups of traits that you put together that you can switch on the fly instead of having to go in and replace stuff one at a time. So it is actually an improvement to current where you have to go to a bard, rearrange traits one at a time, and then pay the bard to finalize it.
    are you sure you dont have to pay still, i will bet you do.

    and really was the bard that bad? its not like i can swap mid fight with this new system its non combat only, so I had to swift travel to galtrev or bree or snowbourn before , wasnt a big deal, at least when I got there I had no limits on what i could choose. Now I do, i can't select all my skills/traits and if i want to be truly hybrid i have to pay for it or take just as long reallocating points in my trees as I had to before.

    would it not have been simpler to just introduce a mechanic where we could save 3 builds under the current system? and only return to the bard for fine tuning?

  11. #11
    Sapience is offline Former Community Manager & Harbinger of Soon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andthelion View Post
    are you sure you dont have to pay still, i will bet you do.

    and really was the bard that bad? its not like i can swap mid fight with this new system its non combat only, so I had to swift travel to galtrev or bree or snowbourn before , wasnt a big deal, at least when I got there I had no limits on what i could choose. Now I do, i can't select all my skills/traits and if i want to be truly hybrid i have to pay for it or take just as long reallocating points in my trees as I had to before.

    would it not have been simpler to just introduce a mechanic where we could save 3 builds under the current system? and only return to the bard for fine tuning?
    I'll take that bet. There is no cost to switch saved trait sets. You just click.
    You get two save slots for free and you can purchase additional slots if you wish. I believe you can currently purchase 3 more for a total of 5.

    Also, something that's really important that massively mentioned I want to clarify. Every class has what we refer to as 'general' skills. These don't live anywhere in the trees. They are auto granted to you as you level up and are present in every build regardless of which tree you go down.
    I'll use hunter as an example. Currently the folowing are general skills (obviously subject to change between now and release).


    • Barbed Arrow
    • Swift Bow
    • Improved Swift Bow
    • Bards Arrow

    So regardless of what tree you go down, you will always have those skills (if you've leveled enough to unlock them).

    The same is true of all classes. They have a set of 'core' or "general" skills that will always be available.

  12. #12
    "The team is feverishly testing, accumulating feedback, and making adjustments to the system as the beta period progresses. While we won't see a full list of all of the changes until the expansion releases, the devs have acknowledged that players are hungry for information on the new system and are hoping that this tour will help settle some of those fears."

    This paragraph causes me great concern. They are mainly relying on the feedback from beta testers for this drastic change? How many testers are in this beta and what are thier demographics, how long have they been playing this game? To some this may not matter, but it matters to me.

    We won't know what those changes are until it releases? I hope they aren't seriously considering holding off on letting people know more about the trait trees before release day.


    Also ....we sure are hungry for more information and after reading that Press Preview I'm left with even more questions. Why can't we be more informed. I do relise this is in beta ...but even so....

    This is a MAJOR change to EVERYONE and I would think we would have a lot more information about this, then we have been receiving lately.


    I'm fairly certain others have this same concern, I have 4 level 85's and I honestly call 1 of those my main character, but I like all of them for different reasons. Having to relearn 4 characters all over again is really stressing me out. I find myself searching, scrambling every where on these forums to find as much information as I can. It isn't enough. More information on all these changes would certainly help a great deal.

  13. #13
    1. Some old wisdom Turbine seems to have never heard of: Never change a running system!!!

    2. I don't get the reasoning behind the changes. Maybe it's simply because the generation X-box/I-trash is overburdened by having more than 4 skills to choose from.

    3. Those changes might turn out to be the last nail for PVMP. Just image the common mini-derp in warspeech riding in and realizing he cannot beat you. Mini-flop -> out-of-combat -> switch to full healing setup -> run back to NPCs. Would still suck if both sides could do that but at least it would be a fairer distribution of alternatives. But I hear/read nothing that creepside will get this.
    I'm not saying let's go kill all the stupid people. ... I'm just saying let's remove all the warning labels and let the problem sort itself out.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Jurny View Post
    This paragraph causes me great concern. They are mainly relying on the feedback from beta testers for this drastic change? How many testers are in this beta and what are thier demographics, how long have they been playing this game? To some this may not matter, but it matters to me.
    From past experience in beta testing LOTRO, I encountered a wide variety of knowledgeable players of every class. If you'd like to add your own knowledge to that feedback, you can grab your very own beta key right now on Facebook.

    I imagine that once HD launches, class trait trees will continue to undergo additional serious revisions. At least that's how it has worked in the past for every other new game system in LOTRO. These things evolve, and are rarely perfect in their first implementation.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jurny View Post
    "The team is feverishly testing, accumulating feedback, and making adjustments to the system as the beta period progresses. While we won't see a full list of all of the changes until the expansion releases, the devs have acknowledged that players are hungry for information on the new system and are hoping that this tour will help settle some of those fears."

    This paragraph causes me great concern. They are mainly relying on the feedback from beta testers for this drastic change? How many testers are in this beta and what are thier demographics, how long have they been playing this game? To some this may not matter, but it matters to me.

    We won't know what those changes are until it releases? I hope they aren't seriously considering holding off on letting people know more about the trait trees before release day.

    It concerns me more because it implies there will be no open beta and no lifting of the NDA prior to launch.

  16. #16
    Wow, this game just became Asheron's Call 2. They should have gone with the Asheron's Call 1 model instead. Way to limit choices Turbine, you never fail to disappoint.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andthelion View Post
    are you sure you dont have to pay still, i will bet you do.

    and really was the bard that bad? its not like i can swap mid fight with this new system its non combat only, so I had to swift travel to galtrev or bree or snowbourn before , wasnt a big deal, at least when I got there I had no limits on what i could choose. Now I do, i can't select all my skills/traits and if i want to be truly hybrid i have to pay for it or take just as long reallocating points in my trees as I had to before.

    would it not have been simpler to just introduce a mechanic where we could save 3 builds under the current system? and only return to the bard for fine tuning?
    There are other games out there that allow you to save 5+ trait setups for free...I won't mention them for fear of getting accused of publicizing, but it's a bit absurd to change the entire functionality of everyone's classes and then charge them money to "fix" it...

    Cas
    Viva Lotro!

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gohankuten View Post
    Builds as in 2 different set-ups of traits that you put together that you can switch on the fly instead of having to go in and replace stuff one at a time. So it is actually an improvement to current where you have to go to a bard, rearrange traits one at a time, and then pay the bard to finalize it.
    No it is not. You have to be out of combat to switch. It means that at any one time you only have an access to a subset (one third?) of your skills. In no way shape or form is me not having access to my skills an improvement on anything.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Coyote503 View Post
    There are other games out there that allow you to save 5+ trait setups for free...I won't mention them for fear of getting accused of publicizing, but it's a bit absurd to change the entire functionality of everyone's classes and then charge them money to "fix" it...
    Not sure why they charge you money to fix it.
    You do not have the spend money (i.e. TP).

    You can respec a trait tree configuration at any time out of combat by paying silver. That is how it works with the MC trees and I am very much sure that it will be the same for the class trait trees.

    What you can do is to spend TP to get more than 2 save slots so that switching builds is a single click instead of rebuilding the trait tree each time. So basically you pay TP for a functionality that a lot of people always wanted for the current trait setup at the bard as well: to be able to save a specific configuration.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coyote503 View Post
    There are other games out there that allow you to save 5+ trait setups for free...I won't mention them for fear of getting accused of publicizing, but it's a bit absurd to change the entire functionality of everyone's classes and then charge them money to "fix" it...

    Cas
    I'd bet the vast majority of players in game very rarely visit a bard. They pick some traits/virtues and are happy with them. When they earn some new traits levelling maybe they go and slot them (though I see some people with empty slots, believe it or not). Heck, I do raiding and moors and solo on my capt, and don't have more than a few setups I use for basically everything. 2 is a bit skimpy, but again most folks will be content with it. I'll probably go for 4, but I have lifer TPs to use for such conveniences.

    And welcome to the F2P model. This one really does fit the now somewhat abandoned "convenience, not advantage" mantra. Having more that 2 basically gives you no "advantages" in ability to complete content, but is potentially convenient...

  21. #21
    I'll take that bet. There is no cost to switch saved trait sets. You just click.
    You get two save slots for free and you can purchase additional slots if you wish. I believe you can currently purchase 3 more for a total of 5.

    Also, something that's really important that massively mentioned I want to clarify. Every class has what we refer to as 'general' skills. These don't live anywhere in the trees. They are auto granted to you as you level up and are present in every build regardless of which tree you go down.
    I'll use hunter as an example. Currently the folowing are general skills (obviously subject to change between now and release).


    •Barbed Arrow
    •Swift Bow
    •Improved Swift Bow
    •Bards Arrow

    So regardless of what tree you go down, you will always have those skills (if you've leveled enough to unlock them).

    The same is true of all classes. They have a set of 'core' or "general" skills that will always be available.

    Sapience aren't you under the NDA?

    tisk tisk

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by vermknid View Post

    Sapience aren't you under the NDA?

    tisk tisk
    I kind of pictured Sapience flipping down the visor on a helm and saying "I *am* the Law!"

  23. #23
    After each change that are free to change will you have to go thru your skills and skill bars and re position each skill again or will they remember where you put them before last time?

    my example purely hypothetical...

    a guardian trait-ed for aggro has all his aggro skills in his skill bars positioned where he likes them, decides to go to the op tree rearranges them where he wants them. when he switches back to aggro tree does his skills go back to the spots on his skill bar where he has them or does he have to rearrange them again?

    hope this example gets across my meaning/concern.
    Mean what you say and say what you mean! If you don't there are always consequences!

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Gohankuten View Post
    Builds as in 2 different set-ups of traits that you put together that you can switch on the fly instead of having to go in and replace stuff one at a time. So it is actually an improvement to current where you have to go to a bard, rearrange traits one at a time, and then pay the bard to finalize it.
    You can't just say it's an improvement. It depends entirely on what the costs of respeccing will be, especially since you can't have a saved build for each of the lines without purchasing an extra slot in the store. I can't remember what it is for warsteeds. There's also the added pain of having to redo everything like we do on our warsteeds and not switch out one or two traits like we do at the bard. I'm not at all surprised they only allow two whilst having three lines, just like they did with warsteeds. It's still annoying and wrong in my opinion.

    Anyway, I think whether it will be an improvement is entirely subjective.
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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaGere View Post
    After each change that are free to change will you have to go thru your skills and skill bars and re position each skill again or will they remember where you put them before last time?
    Heh, surely they'd return to the same location you keep them on your skill bars (or better yet, not go anywhere, just grey out when traited differently), or the entire system would be too cumbersome to be playable at all. Or folks who did try to play it would just constantly get the wrong skill results from hitting the same keys!

    "Sorry, apparently I was trying to heal the MOB."

    "Apologies, it seems Lotro believed I wanted to attack you when I hit my heal."

    Hehe, just imagine the chaos...

    PS: The video showing it yesterday made it seem they disappear sadly, but when the champ retraited, skills did appear on a higher bar (third or so iirc), which would suggest they remembered their previous user set spot.
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