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  1. #1

    On the logic of the cold kinship invite: Manners, salesmanship, and gender bias

    Ever been sent a 'tell,' out of the blue, inviting you to join a kinship? This morning, I was out in the Lone Lands with my level 27 minstrel, an elf maid. Suddenly, the tell-tale 'ding', announcing the arrival of a chat message. "Would you like to join our kinship?" My first impulse was to respond, 'er, what? why would I?' There had not been so much as a hello-how-do-you-do, no boilerplate description announcing the name and rank etc etc of the kinship. Just, "would you like to join our kinship?" I assumed on the spot that such rough-around-the-edges social skills must have belonged to a very young player, chronologically speaking, so I politely replied, "no thank you," and continued killing creatures in search of their sturdy hides. But the incident got me thinking. And it's by no means the first time I have been a recipient of the cold kinship invite. In fact, it's been something of a sociological experiment. This character happens to be my newest. I have a lvl 85 human LM who belongs to a kinship, and has belonged to the same kinship since, oh, level 15. I have a lvl 28 human burglar who belongs to no kinship and never has; ditto, for my lvl 43 elven hunter. Interestingly, all the latter three characters are male. None of them, ever, received a cold kinship invite. (My LM himself responded to an announcement in Bree about such-and-such a kin, was interested in the description, and contacted the kinship's leader.) So, what's up with inviting only female characters to join a kinship? and what, in the name of wonder, is up with the cold kinship invite?? It's a small sample - a sample of me - but I'm wondering whether others have had a similar experience, or a different experience. What are your thoughts?

    EDIT: this is at least the fourth time that my female elf minstrel has received a cold kinship invite. Makes me think that elves, or minstrels, or females must be very popular members of kinships.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
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    933
    I used to get so many on all of my alts[all male] on both accounts, I had to disable kin invites and go annon. Now it is the desperate adverts for kins that I see in chat, Join X Kin and get Officer rank, usually followed by spam invites like you got as well.

    So yes, little or no social graces from the recruiters, makes me think it is an age thing.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
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    Better receiving an ims with a request than a a ninja invite without anything.
    The request for my kin was starting with a simple tell, which was "ever thought to join a kin?", followed by a long discussion that convinced me. Worked out fine for me.

    On my non-kin characters my personal statistics say the number of invites is independent of character gender.

    I do not think this is only due to age. It is due to generations. Have a look at facebook, twitter etc. gazillions of friends, followers etc.
    In this generation you'd rather have to explain why you decline a friendship instead of the other one convincing you why you should have one.

  4. #4
    I get a lot of invites on my L75 m LM. I suspect it's mostly because of the beard and tight fitting trousers.

  5. #5
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    My best friend and I used to get so many either ninja kin invites or people pestering us through tells about it that we eventually went and used all of our alts to make a Kin of our own. Seems like having a Kin name floating under our usernames did the trick, since once an alt joined our kin, the pestering stopped.

    As for any rhyme or reason to it.... I've actually noticed that it happens more on my low-level toons that start in or near the Bree-land area, I don't ever remember this happening in the Ered Luin area, or in places farther away from Bree.

    What I have had happen a LOT is a very similar thing with fellowship invites- usually along the lines of me being in a high-level zone, and all of a sudden some low-level toon back in Bree will start spamming me with Fellowship invites, and never respond when I PM them asking why they want my help. And they usually don't stop until I have either added them to ignore or I've logged off and switched to another toon.
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  6. #6
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    In most cases... those types of kins just want bodies. I have had countless invites on male toons of varying classes. And I would also add... that because you got a tell, you were dealing with a more evolved kin than some. I tend to get the straight up /invite having to decline a popup in mid-battle. Enfuriating enough, I'd likely put a couple of entire kinships on ignore if the system supported it.

    Now, for healers... there is a bias, but I don't think it has to do with kin invites. I still claim random invites are all about numbers. If a kin needs a healer for content... they are gonna talk to you first to make sure you actually intend to help and/or CAN help. The healer bias comes with random group invites. People just scan the fellowship panel and start with 85 healers, then work their way down the classes. Its just one of the reasons that anonymous is such a valuable tool. I love getting tells asking for help... I loathe people who argue when I can't or who don't even bother asking before sending invites... sadly, these are very common.

    I only have 1 female character. My dozens of other male toons ALL get blasted with random kin invites. I claim that gender is only an issue with a very small number of very specific people. And in those cases, the problem is in all apsects of their play and not just in who they invite to their kin.

  7. #7
    I once get invited to the same kin about 7 times over 5 days on my (then) roughly 26ish level male Captain. No tells. No description. Just the pop-up invite as I rode through Bree.

    All my other toons are male as well, and I was never spammed with kinship invite. I made a female guardian yesterday, so I'll see if anything changes.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Temrhyn View Post
    As for any rhyme or reason to it.... I've actually noticed that it happens more on my low-level toons that start in or near the Bree-land area, I don't ever remember this happening in the Ered Luin area, or in places farther away from Bree.
    Bree is the usual recruiting area for kins as it's the main hub for new players that don't have a kin yet, so no surprise you get more invites there than elsewhere.

    As for "poor social skills", remember a lot of people in this game may come from completely different cultural backgrounds than yourself. Personally I can get pretty annoyed with long-winded social "foreplay" (on the receiving end) when people just want to ask a simple question, just wastes everyones time. Also has something to do with communication channels: a chatroom (this includes tells) is a very different situation than a face-to-face talk or a phone call, as you never really know if there actually is someone on the other end. Even if you get a initial reply the other person may go AFK or log off any second without you noticing, such circumstances may push some people to be more direct than usual.

    Of course there are also a lot of immature kids and jerks around, but not every ninja tell/invite indicates one.
    Used to play: 85 Champ / Captain / Runekeeper / Guardian, Guild Master of everything but cooking.
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  9. #9
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    I have a few characters that are not in my kinship and I regularly get kinship invitations when I am playing them. The lowest in level is a LV58 hunter and the highest in level are a LV85 burglar and LV85 warden. All are male characters. I haven't noticed any difference in how many invitations any of them get.

    I have noticed that the kinship invites that I have received have all been polite /tell messages and not the kinship invite screen popping up, which is a nice thing. I just thank the the person for the invite and politely decline.

  10. #10
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    Have always been in a kin, so never got any cold invites (in this game). Our procedure is to invite (people not already affiliated with a kin) with whom we have fellowed or raided (during or after). So we are familiar and have interacted with them before the kin-vite, and it is always preceded by talking (in /fellowship or /tell).

    I would treat cold kin-vites like junk mail. I guess they work to generate interest for some people. If it is cold with no pre-/tell, I would just cancel it. If it happens again soon-ish I would check box out of kin-vites. Sending tells to cut it out, does not necessarily work. If they then send a tell, I would politely decline. If they get any more aggressive than that, it might require an /ignore.

    If you DO want to join a kin, responding to cold-invites may not be the best option, but far be it from me to dissuade you.
    Kinships: Fifth Star Vagabonds on Crickhollow (Dotswith); Random Access on Arkenstone (Dottiel)

  11. #11
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    Something even more rich than a cold kinship invite is someone actually trying to steal you from the current kin you are in. Happened to me, and it was laughable.

    A few of my alts are kinless. I get bombarded with /tells and invitations of varying degrees of desperation. I remain kinless by choice, for the sake of continuing this little social experiment. When I get a random out-of-the-blue kinship invite, I respond by asking a whole lot of follow-up questions. Not because the information will tell me much, but because what people answer and how they respond tells me everything I need to know about their level of maturity and what kind of kinship it really is. As a rule of thumb, they all pretty much go on about how their kin is "about helping/crafting/questing together/etc"... when I ask, "what sets your kinship apart from all these other kinships claiming to provide the exact same things?" - that is when things get interesting and that is the response I will base my judgment on.

    I'm not a veteran player by far (having started only in 2012), and chose my server randomly without prior research into different server dynamics/demographics (a decision I regret), but based on what I've seen around me, kins are more or less the in-cliques and many folks want nothing to do with you unless you formally join their in-groups and start sporting their name-tag under yours. My decision to remain kinless as a social experiment was to test this theory. My hypothesis was that the in-game contacts/friends who are the real deal wouldn't care about my affiliation or the lack of it, and something so superficial shouldn't affect our interactions. I freely give and help to folks on my friend list even though they're not under the same kin bubble. This bore some interesting results. For the most part I was correct. At a couple of other times, I had two kin invitations from two in-game friends, both of which I respectfully and cordially declined explaining my preference to fly with no colors. Turns out, some people take a polite decline to join their club with a degree of bvtthurtedness, and react by drawing more distant. So much for my theory that a reliable friend list may just as well function as a kin list. But this experiment is proving successful overall, as it intrinsically weeds out the drama types and the "I want your body because it adds more numbers making my kin look more populated" types. Leaving only the laid back down to earth types who wouldn't care what is or isn't written under your name.
    Éala Éarendel engla beorhtast / ofer middangeard monnum sended / and sodfasta sunnan leoma, / tohrt ofer tunglas þu tida gehvane / of sylfum þe symle inlihtes.

  12. #12
    I have recruited a couple of members to our kin, and both times it has been after interaction with that person has naturally got us into a tell conversation. I personally wouldn't want to be part of a kin that sent these blind invites without at least a feel for the player and whether they would enjoy the kin and be an asset.

    I feel your frustration, I got quite a few random invites before joining aforementioned kin!
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herwegur View Post
    Turns out, some people take a polite decline to join their club with a degree of bvtthurtedness, and react by drawing more distant. So much for my theory that a reliable friend list may just as well function as a kin list.

    Often kinships feel that they want to get to know you so they group with you before they invite you. They spend the time with you _specifically_ to see if you are the kind of player they would like to add to their kinship.


  14. #14
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
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    I don't understand the cold invites, do they actually work? I can't really understand why someone would join a kin knowing nothing about it, does it major on raiding, are there restrictions or expectations placed on you, what's the age range etc. etc. etc.

    Unless people just join and then subsequently leave if they don't like it, which just seems a waste of everyone's time to me. Dunno, like I say I don't really "get it".

    Ditto cold fellowship invites. Don't mind helping out others, whether they be on-level or lower level, but it would be nice to be told what this fellowship is being formed for.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Temrhyn View Post
    What I have had happen a LOT is a very similar thing with fellowship invites- usually along the lines of me being in a high-level zone, and all of a sudden some low-level toon back in Bree will start spamming me with Fellowship invites, and never respond when I PM them asking why they want my help. And they usually don't stop until I have either added them to ignore or I've logged off and switched to another toon.
    My reaction to THAT practice is...

    On the first blind invite, ignore it.
    On the second blind invite, send a polite tell asking that they not do blind invites.
    On the third blind invite, report for harassment.

    It rarely gets to the third stage, but it's there if needed. Some people don't get hints too well and you have to use the Clue-by-4.

  16. #16
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    I've not experienced too much of that in Gladden.

    Bree generally has one or two kins advertising in Regional. Before I finally got my kin founded (hadn't bothered requesting friends to join and I only had five chars at the time), I was getting PMs from one of those kins advertising on any character I logged into within five minutes. I politely declined on all of them and they stopped.

    I do get the occasional random fellowship invite from out of the blue for some reason. I tend to ignore cold invites where someone has not said anything to me. If they do it again, I'll ignore again. If they do it a third time, I'll set them to ignore, which hasn't happened yet.
    Tarphindiel~Hu~100, Tolella~Mi~86, Ryeberry~Gu~80, Torfrik~Rk~80, Arindis~Be~60
    Meleras~Wd~50, Minethril~Ca~49, Diorwen~Ch~44, Indiria~Lm~38, Alanda~Bu~32
    And Fourteen Other Alts
    Founder of Gladden's "The Fellowship of the Ping"

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
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    136
    If they're going to cold invite, at least a tell is better than a straight-up invite popping up while you're in the middle of a skirm. I don't get the 'wanna join ours' tells, though, that don't even say the name of the kin, let alone anything about it. 'Have you thought about joining a kin' is better - at least that invites questions. I just put an alt in one that approached me that way; I figure it's one I've seen around, the sender answered my q about requirements (& the answer suits me), and I can see how I like it. (And I like the name. You have to tell me the name. Priorities, people. )
    § Elendilmir refugee on Ark §

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  18. #18
    Thanks for the feedback, everyone! Seems I'm not alone.

    I'd be curious whether anyone reading this would be willing to admit to *using* the cold kinship invite - and would be willing to report on how effective it's been?

    Personally, I appreciate it when the person at least asks whether I've thought about joining a kinship; even better when the conversation starts after we've done a fellowship quest or two together. After all, joining a kinship, ideally, involves a bit of a 2-way interview: do I find something about this group interesting, attractive, helpful? And what about me? Maybe I'm a lousy player, or not a team player, or a poor sport. Are you sure you want me in your kinship?

    I forgot to mention one rather humorous example that happened some weeks ago. Someone sent me a cold invite out of the blue (at least he had the courtesy to send it as a 'tell'); I politely declined. When the invitation was repeated, word for word, ten minutes later, I responded, "haven't we already had this conversation?" The person's response? After a brief pause: "Oh, that must have been my partner who sent it, while I was on a bio break."

    As for my level 27 (now 28) elf minstrel? Well, she's disabled kinship invitations. For the time being, anyway.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by EmyrSelyf View Post
    Often kinships feel that they want to get to know you so they group with you before they invite you. They spend the time with you _specifically_ to see if you are the kind of player they would like to add to their kinship.

    Yep I know. But what I have been referring to are basic interactions/socializing on individual level that are ongoing for extended duration but which alter in their tone after a kin invite has been declined. Well, if they pal around with me not for its own sake but for the sake of fishing around for kin recruits, and lose interest in me the second I say no, then good riddance.
    Éala Éarendel engla beorhtast / ofer middangeard monnum sended / and sodfasta sunnan leoma, / tohrt ofer tunglas þu tida gehvane / of sylfum þe symle inlihtes.

  20. #20
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    I've always made it a habit to purposefully avoid guilds, kins, groups, clans, etc. in games where there's so many people in it. There's no way everyone knows everyone and it's not much of a clan or a kin if you don't know all the people who represent the name you're representing.

    I've always been of the opinion that friends lists, kins, etc were a means to keep in contact with people you enjoy being around, not just a list of warm bodies to rely on when you need a role filled.
    Tarphindiel~Hu~100, Tolella~Mi~86, Ryeberry~Gu~80, Torfrik~Rk~80, Arindis~Be~60
    Meleras~Wd~50, Minethril~Ca~49, Diorwen~Ch~44, Indiria~Lm~38, Alanda~Bu~32
    And Fourteen Other Alts
    Founder of Gladden's "The Fellowship of the Ping"

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Moskvich View Post
    Ever been sent a 'tell,' out of the blue, inviting you to join a kinship? This morning, I was out in the Lone Lands with my level 27 minstrel, an elf maid. Suddenly, the tell-tale 'ding', announcing the arrival of a chat message. "Would you like to join our kinship?"
    You are describing the polite way to invite someone. The more common method is to get the Pop up window for Who_The_Heck_Is_This saying that you have been invited to their kinship - accept or reject. In Lotro, this popup grabs focus by seizing control of the game UI demanding that you do something about this request before you will be allowed to return to your current activities.

    Hence I disable all these popups (fellowship, kinship and spar) on my characters. All my characters are member of a kin so that I do not kin invites. I do not get tells. If I had to - I create my own personal kin to keep from being bothered.

    In Swtor, you get bothered all the time because all the members in a guild get a bonus to reputation and experience bonus based on the number of different accounts in the guild. You will get hassled by people who are looking to increase their bonus. They are not interested in any interaction.
    Unless stated otherwise, all content in this post is My Personal Opinion.

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Yula_the_Mighty View Post
    You are describing the polite way to invite someone. The more common method is to get the Pop up window for Who_The_Heck_Is_This saying that you have been invited to their kinship - accept or reject. In Lotro, this popup grabs focus by seizing control of the game UI demanding that you do something about this request before you will be allowed to return to your current activities.
    LOL. True enough. By comparison, what I experienced this morning *was* polite. Not terribly socially adept, perhaps; certainly not terrific salesmanship, without a doubt. But at any rate, less impolite than the pop-up. Those pop-ups that demand a response NOW are loathsome.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herwegur View Post
    Something even more rich than a cold kinship invite is someone actually trying to steal you from the current kin you are in. Happened to me, and it was laughable.
    Bwahahah. I remember when this happened to me the first time. I cannot even remember which server it was on, but I told my kinmates and they started laughing when they discovered that the two attempting to get me to join on my level capped female toon were trying to by *bribing* me with ingame gold. Talk about sad desperation.

    Second time happened with one raider trying to convince me to join his raiding kin.


    A few of my alts are kinless. I get bombarded with /tells and invitations of varying degrees of desperation. I remain kinless by choice, for the sake of continuing this little social experiment. When I get a random out-of-the-blue kinship invite, I respond by asking a whole lot of follow-up questions. Not because the information will tell me much, but because what people answer and how they respond tells me everything I need to know about their level of maturity and what kind of kinship it really is. As a rule of thumb, they all pretty much go on about how their kin is "about helping/crafting/questing together/etc"... when I ask, "what sets your kinship apart from all these other kinships claiming to provide the exact same things?" - that is when things get interesting and that is the response I will base my judgment on.

    I'm not a veteran player by far (having started only in 2012), and chose my server randomly without prior research into different server dynamics/demographics (a decision I regret), but based on what I've seen around me, kins are more or less the in-cliques and many folks want nothing to do with you unless you formally join their in-groups and start sporting their name-tag under yours. My decision to remain kinless as a social experiment was to test this theory. My hypothesis was that the in-game contacts/friends who are the real deal wouldn't care about my affiliation or the lack of it, and something so superficial shouldn't affect our interactions. I freely give and help to folks on my friend list even though they're not under the same kin bubble. This bore some interesting results. For the most part I was correct. At a couple of other times, I had two kin invitations from two in-game friends, both of which I respectfully and cordially declined explaining my preference to fly with no colors. Turns out, some people take a polite decline to join their club with a degree of bvtthurtedness, and react by drawing more distant. So much for my theory that a reliable friend list may just as well function as a kin list. But this experiment is proving successful overall, as it intrinsically weeds out the drama types and the "I want your body because it adds more numbers making my kin look more populated" types. Leaving only the laid back down to earth types who wouldn't care what is or isn't written under your name.
    This depends on servers, in my experience. Both servers I play on seem to be pretty cool with non-kinned or personal-kinned players if they are good players (especially the 'good player' thing on Elendilmir).

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  24. #24
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    And don't dismiss the out of the blue "Who's the leader of your kin, what level is it and do they wanna sell it?" tells.

    I've had two of those. :P
    Tarphindiel~Hu~100, Tolella~Mi~86, Ryeberry~Gu~80, Torfrik~Rk~80, Arindis~Be~60
    Meleras~Wd~50, Minethril~Ca~49, Diorwen~Ch~44, Indiria~Lm~38, Alanda~Bu~32
    And Fourteen Other Alts
    Founder of Gladden's "The Fellowship of the Ping"

  25. #25
    Join Date
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    I wouldn't call sending a tell as a "cold kinship invite." The title made me think of the situation where some people randomly invite strangers to their kin, otherwise known as a ninja invite, without sending them any message at all. A few of my low level alts received invites like this before they joined my kin.

    As a kinship leader, I periodically send tells to kinless players saying, "looking for a kin?" If they suggest they are, then I provide them with more information about my kin, and answer any questions they have. If they are not, I usually say, "np, have fun ". If this is rude, then there must be a very big divide in understanding over manners. For what it's worth, a good 75% of the people I ask who are not interested respond very politely, thanking me for the invite, with some even mentioning they were delighted to see a tell instead of an actual cold invite. I don't recall anyone ever being offended by my approach to kinship recruitment (or, at least, they never vocalised it). Many kinnies who are now very close were invited in this manner and likely would not know each other otherwise.

    As for your assumption that you are only being invited because your character is an Elf female, I doubt that is the case. Chances are it had more to do with the fact that you were not in a kin. Your male characters may simply not have been spotted by a kin leader or officer interested in recruiting. I think you're reading too much into it, especially given the fact that the other player doesn't really know if you are male or female (I play characters of both sexes, for example).

    -Bel
    Belnavar - Captain - 105 - Brandywine - Leader of Keepers of the Palantiri

 

 
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