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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kril View Post
    $60 USD for a piece of software I can't hold, and no physical 'fluff' even to warrant it either... Am I just getting too old for this digital download pricing scheme or what?
    In a word, Yes.

    Your economic world view is many years out of date.

    I happen to be retired and 68. But I'm retired from 30+ years in the world of Computing. Yes, from long before there was an Internet . The ARPAnet was just coming in to existence, but that was for Main-frames only, the PC hadn't been invented yet. (The Intel 4004 - a 4 bit cpu was introduced in 1971.)

    Begin Eco101 lecture:

    I have friends and family, both older and younger who have no clue what is involved in anything digital. Their world-view is dictated by the Nightly Network News.
    All they know and understand is something made with their own hands. They have no idea what is involved in creating or running a business.
    Even the Doctors and Lawyers in that group equate everything to how much THEY paid to get an education; and the expectation they have had drummed into their heads that they are the top of the heap and everybody below them is worth less!

    ... It takes a machinist 4 hours to make a widget, at $20 per hour, so therefore it should sell for no more than $85, or if they are being generous $90.
    Capital investment?
    They totally ignore the hundred thousand dollar cost of the "machine" that machinist is using to create the widget; the cost of power to run the machine; the cost of the raw material for the Widget.
    In short they have a very "short-sighted" view of economics and the "costs of Sales" as it is called in accounting.

    People always think that because it's Digital, it doesn't cost anything. They ignore the fact that instead of $40 per hour for a machinist, you have to pay $80 per hour for the Digital Developer. Yes, the salary numbers are AT LEAST that far apart. That's why all of the "macro-economists" are constantly decrying the demise of the Middle-Class.
    And yes, that Digital Developer is working on a Machine that costs SEVERAL hundred thousand dollars... it's not the cheap Dell you can buy at Best Buy. Then add in the cost of the software used to do the work -- do they use RenderMan from Pixar? ... big bucks per seat to license that. You don't develop "professional grade" software on "Free Software. The concept of "Free Software" means "Free as in Speech," not "Free as in Beer." Open Source is different yet. Somebody has to support that software. Either in-house or under contract. Underneath it all SOMEBODY is buying the Beer and Pizza.

    And lest I forget -- how much does your 20Mb Internet connection cost? And you complain that is SLOW. How fast a connection, or as we say, how big a pipe, is necessary to support 10 end-users at 20Mbps -- 200Mbps, easy math. 100 users therefore needs 100x20 or a 2,000Mbps connection. 1,000 users? 10,000 users? You get the idea.

    The cost of manufacture of an item is only a small portion of its price.

    End of Eco101 lecture.
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  2. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Valamar View Post
    In a word, Yes.

    Your economic world view is many years out of date.

    I happen to be retired and 68. But I'm retired from 30+ years in the world of Computing. Yes, from long before there was an Internet . The ARPAnet was just coming in to existence, but that was for Main-frames only, the PC hadn't been invented yet. (The Intel 4004 - a 4 bit cpu was introduced in 1971.)

    Begin Eco101 lecture:

    I have friends and family, both older and younger who have no clue what is involved in anything digital. Their world-view is dictated by the Nightly Network News.
    All they know and understand is something made with their own hands. They have no idea what is involved in creating or running a business.
    Even the Doctors and Lawyers in that group equate everything to how much THEY paid to get an education; and the expectation they have had drummed into their heads that they are the top of the heap and everybody below them is worth less!

    ... It takes a machinist 4 hours to make a widget, at $20 per hour, so therefore it should sell for no more than $85, or if they are being generous $90.
    Capital investment?
    They totally ignore the hundred thousand dollar cost of the "machine" that machinist is using to create the widget; the cost of power to run the machine; the cost of the raw material for the Widget.
    In short they have a very "short-sighted" view of economics and the "costs of Sales" as it is called in accounting.

    People always think that because it's Digital, it doesn't cost anything. They ignore the fact that instead of $40 per hour for a machinist, you have to pay $80 per hour for the Digital Developer. Yes, the salary numbers are AT LEAST that far apart. That's why all of the "macro-economists" are constantly decrying the demise of the Middle-Class.
    And yes, that Digital Developer is working on a Machine that costs SEVERAL hundred thousand dollars... it's not the cheap Dell you can buy at Best Buy. Then add in the cost of the software used to do the work -- do they use RenderMan from Pixar? ... big bucks per seat to license that. You don't develop "professional grade" software on "Free Software. The concept of "Free Software" means "Free as in Speech," not "Free as in Beer." Open Source is different yet. Somebody has to support that software. Either in-house or under contract. Underneath it all SOMEBODY is buying the Beer and Pizza.

    And lest I forget -- how much does your 20Mb Internet connection cost? And you complain that is SLOW. How fast a connection, or as we say, how big a pipe, is necessary to support 10 end-users at 20Mbps -- 200Mbps, easy math. 100 users therefore needs 100x20 or a 2,000Mbps connection. 1,000 users? 10,000 users? You get the idea.

    The cost of manufacture of an item is only a small portion of its price.

    End of Eco101 lecture.
    do you offer evening classes?

    well said.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valamar View Post
    End of Eco101 lecture.
    When an expansion costs as much as many full blown games ( which have the associated costs of engines licensed / developed from scratch / initial advertising ), whilst delivering far less, something is off. Every game developer is in the same boat, and the price has to be compared against what others are offering for similar value, and it doesn't stack up.

  4. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Hurin View Post
    This is incorrect. I said I shake my head at people who get upset at a price based on how expensive the item is to produce. As such your (now repeated) citation of an article about price-fixing among competitors was (and remains) irrelevant.
    I notice you ended my quote just short of this "I was merely pointing out that people getting upset when they find out that their $500 item costs far less than that to manufacture actually sometimes have a valid gripe". So, at this point I realize you are intentionally attempting to twist the conversation, rather than have an intelligent discourse on the subject. See... I proved that I understood exactly what you were talking about, and you decided to leave that bit out, and then harp on things you could take out of context to make it look like I was wrong. I proved it by saying "I was merely pointing out that people getting upset when they find out that their $500 item costs far less than that to manufacture actually sometimes have a valid gripe". See that there? It says right there that I am addressing what you were talking about. Of course, you also ignore WHY I brought in the bit about price fixing. Maybe you just don't understand.. but I suspect you do understand why I really brought that bit in, but you purposefully choose to leave it out in your responses to further promote your agenda.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hurin View Post
    You keep equating "people being upset about inflated prices" with "price fixing" and "costs far less to manufacture"
    No I don't. You keep ignoring the entire context of what I say, in order to sensationalize your point. I keep saying that based on what YOU BROUGHT INTO THE CONVERSATION, about YOU BEING BOTHERED by people not liking the difference between the retail cost of their $500 iPhone, and the cost of manufacturing... that in a SIMILAR SITUATION where LCD television manufacturers were fined millions of dollars for price fixing, it turned out that there did not actually have to be such a huge difference between the cost of manufacturing a product, and the expensive retail price. I've said that multiple times. You keep proving you have reading comprehension issues, and decide that you would like to say I'm saying that Turbine is guilty of Price Fixing. I'm not, and I never was. You brought the iPhone into the conversation. You brought the issue between a $500 retail product and manufacturing costs into the conversation. I merely pointed out that your example wasn't necessarily a good one, since other manufacturers had been fined for creating such a disparity.


    Everything you say after this point just shows you are not interested in an intelligent discourse on the topic.
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  5. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Valamar View Post
    Your economic world view is many years out of date.
    Now now... be specific. Since there is actual information in this conversation, you are saying that his economic world view is FIVE (5) years out of date. When compared to the number of years necessary for a doctorate, namely Eight (8), then yes... five could be considered "many". However, above that, five looks less and less like "many" and starts to look more like "a few". Why do I say Five? Because in 2008, $60 got the digital product and a pile of physical product. Five years later, that same $60 gets a digital product includes NO physical product, is made by FEWER developers, includes MORE bugs, MORE performance issues, and MORE restrictions.

    So, you need to remember... the OP wasn't talking about an economic world view from back when you were just getting started in your 30+ years of computing. He was talking about something that happened five years ago... a blink of an eye in the span of your career and experience. In fact, five years compared to the length of time you've been involved with computers couldn't be considered "many" by any stretch of the imagination.

    However... back to the issue at hand. In this particular case, we are talking about BOTH items (the $60 product from 2008, and the $60 product now) being digital. Both products were about the digital content. So, this actually has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with not having a "clue what is involved in anything digital" The issue at hand is what was included for that $60 IN ADDITION TO the digital product, versus what is NOT INCLUDED NOW.

    Also, as I mentioned, Turbine has cut staff... so there are fewer developers working on the digital releases now. There are also performance issues, which have left more consumers unhappy with the last release... when compared to the 2008 Moria release. So where you mention all of the production costs that go into making the Widgit, there are actually fewer production costs involved with releasing Helm's Deep, than there were for releasing the 2008 $60 Mines of Moria Collector's Edition. Fewer production costs because of a reduced staff, and no physical product to make. Yet, the price is the same. So... this has nothing to do with assuming that digital products cost nothing to make.

    To add insult to injury... the core digital content of the Rider's of Rohan release is currently $20. If you take that core, add on 2000 Turbine Points, a title, some cosmetic gear and a few other digital extras, you get a digital product that was sold for $70. At the time it was sold for $70, the Core digital content was being sold for $40. So, right there.... the "value" of the majority of the product was $40... and has been cut in half since then. The basic Helm's Deep expansion is also $40, and will eventually be cut in half as well. However... we are talking about the comparison between that core digital product, and the Big package that includes that core digital product.

    In both cases, way back in the ancient days of 2008 and now, the core digital product is valued at $20. Back in the economic stone age of 2008 however, for that extra $40 you got a pile of physical product, where as now that $40 pays for a small amount of extra digital content. I'm not saying that the extra digital content didn't cost anything to produce... however it cost FAR LESS to produce than the physical product that you got for that same $40 only five years ago. No one is ignoring the fact that it costs $80 for the developer. What people are focusing on instead is that EVERY TIME you make one of those widgets to sell... after it has been designed and perfected and sent into production... every time you manufacture a new widget, it costs something to make. It costs money to make one, to be able to sell one. Now... I realize I have to beat this horse to death, because I will be quoted out of context and there will be reading comprehension issues. I am NOT TALKING about the costs to design it. The Engineer who designs the WIDGET needs to get paid. Just like the software developer needs to get paid. However, neither of them need to get paid EVERY TIME a copy of the product is turned out and manufactured. The Engineer isn't paid based on every widget that is manufactured. The Software Developer isn't paid every time a copy of the game is sold. The major differences between digital and physical product, is that the costs of manufacturing, storing, packaging, marketing, shipping and displaying those physics products is FAR HIGHER than the costs of manufacturing, storing, packaging, marketing, shipping, and displaying the digital products. Especially considering the majority of the digital products we are specifically talking about will never see the surface of a DVD. The majority of the copies of Helm's Deep will be sold electronically.

    And just to be clear... again... we are talking about digital products in both cases. We are talking about a digital product that makes up the majority of what is being sold for the $60. So... the cost of the developers, and the hardware to make the software on, and the cost of the hardware to test the software on (oh wait, we are doing the BETA testing... nvm), and the cost of the internet connections, and the cost of the servers to store stuff on... all THOSE costs are the same for both products in this comparison. All those costs are the same for the 2008 product with the core digital content, and the 2013 product with the core digital content. The issue at hand is that in 2008 you were given far more stuff that cost MORE to make for your $60, than you are given now.

    Once the software is made, you can't even really say that the product in this case goes into "manufacturing". This is why software piracy is such an issue... since an INCALCULABLE number of copies of the software could be out there and being used. The software companies that are victims of software piracy often have no idea how much money they could have made if they had sold their product to those people, because they can't figure out how many copies are actually out there. If you manufactured Widgets, you'd know exactly how many you made, and how much each cost to make, and how much you spent on making all of your stock. There is no "stock" when it comes to a purely digital product, since it can be copied indefinitely and without your knowledge.

    So... again. This is about a digital product + a physical product for $60 in 2008, and a digital product + NO physical product for $60 in 2013. This is not about an outdated economic world view. Or Widgets.
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  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by bongart View Post
    I notice you ended my quote just short of this "I was merely pointing out that people getting upset when they find out that their $500 item costs far less than that to manufacture actually sometimes have a valid gripe". So, at this point I realize you are intentionally attempting to twist the conversation, rather than have an intelligent discourse on the subject. See... I proved that I understood exactly what you were talking about, and you decided to leave that bit out, and then harp on things you could take out of context to make it look like I was wrong. I proved it by saying "I was merely pointing out that people getting upset when they find out that their $500 item costs far less than that to manufacture actually sometimes have a valid gripe". See that there? It says right there that I am addressing what you were talking about. Of course, you also ignore WHY I brought in the bit about price fixing. Maybe you just don't understand.. but I suspect you do understand why I really brought that bit in, but you purposefully choose to leave it out in your responses to further promote your agenda.
    I really do have absolutely no idea what you're on about. There was nothing evasive or obfuscatory about where I ended your quote. And I addressed what you said fairly and accurately. Indeed, it is misleading for you to allege otherwise and to assert that I cut your quote "just short" of saying something that you don't actually get around to saying for another thirty-nine words beyond the point where I stopped quoting you. That's "just short" now? You should be more careful in alleging shenanigans when you are obviously engaging in shenanigans yourself. Regardless, this tangent began when you misrepresented my view as "shak[ing] your head at people getting upset at inflated prices". . . when that is not a fair characterization of my views and would seem to be a willfully constructed straw man.

    And what you claim you "prove" above is merely that you continue to harp on irrelevancies. And leap to ill-founded conclusions while accusing others of not being interested in "intelligent conversation."

    To wit. . .

    No I don't. You keep ignoring the entire context of what I say, in order to sensationalize your point. I keep saying that based on what YOU BROUGHT INTO THE CONVERSATION, about YOU BEING BOTHERED by people not liking the difference between the retail cost of their $500 iPhone, and the cost of manufacturing... that in a SIMILAR SITUATION where LCD television manufacturers were fined millions of dollars for price fixing, it turned out that there did not actually have to be such a huge difference between the cost of manufacturing a product, and the expensive retail price. I've said that multiple times. You keep proving you have reading comprehension issues, and decide that you would like to say I'm saying that Turbine is guilty of Price Fixing. I'm not, and I never was. You brought the iPhone into the conversation. You brought the issue between a $500 retail product and manufacturing costs into the conversation. I merely pointed out that your example wasn't necessarily a good one, since other manufacturers had been fined for creating such a disparity.

    Everything you say after this point just shows you are not interested in an intelligent discourse on the topic.
    Now, let's review: Your entire point above is that when people found out that (LCD) price fixing was happening, they suddenly became aware "that there did not actually have to be such a huge difference between the cost of manufacturing a product, and the expensive retail price."

    What you are stating there is a tautology. By definition, when you find out that a price is higher than it should be, then the price it should be is necessarily closer to the manufacturing cost.

    You could just as easily state that they became aware that "there did not have to be such a high price at retail."

    Manufacturing costs need not enter into it. It is being artificially and arbitrarily injected. Unwisely so. . . since it is irrelevant.

    As for deciding what I would "like" to say and putting words in my mouth. . . all while accusing me of having a reading comprehension problem. . . you need to set your own thoughts aright before addressing the cogently expressed views of others. Because, while it's very easy to post a specious or nonsensical point or argument, it's quite exhausting to dismantle them piece by piece. And I'm now exhausted.

    You keep mentioning manufacturing costs. It's silly to do so. Keep tilting at that windmill if you wish. But you can kindly stop pretending that people who dismantle your arguments and logic are somehow doing so dishonestly or otherwise engaging in shenanigans. Especially when there seems ample evidence that you're engaging in projection.

    --H
    Last edited by Hurin; Oct 17 2013 at 03:58 PM.
    "Ephemeral" does not mean what I think it means.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by YamydeAragon View Post
    The lunch im talking about was a 1/2 pizza or a italian sandwish (with ham, cheese, butter & egg) & a glass of fresh juice. & everything was made in the local pizzeria. If you don't find that satisfying you maybe over eating. Up today this cost only $6 . So i just can't beleive that 60 years ago that costed $10 as someone said previously. Also i just talked to my mom & she laughted saying that she would buy the groceries for whole familiy to last 1 month with $10 back then.
    And I was talking about the school cafeteria :P.
    "No sadder words of tongue or pen are the words: 'Might have been'." -- John Greenleaf Whittier
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    On planet Earth, there is a try.
    Indeed, in a world and life full of change, the only constant is human nature (A is A, after all :P).
    We old vets need to keep in mind those who come after us.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by cdq1958 View Post
    And I was talking about the school cafeteria :P.
    Understood. Kids at my place are allow to walk off the school during lunch. They can wander on the town & buy the meal at the store they prefer. They have the dicipline to always return to school on time, on their own. Maybe my place is stuck back in time on many traditions in the good way.
    Is this Alternate Playable Character Disorder? :

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  9. #59
    Honestly? I don't think you are getting too old at all. You are what I like to call the collector, a gamer who loves to know that they have the discs and collectibles in their place on your shelves. I think the thing is that turbine likely feels that it is cheaper to release new content, without having to publish paperbacks and all that. So don't worry so much about it, or try not to anyway.
    <img src='http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0520a000000319f7a/01008/signature.png'></img>

  10. #60
    There are times when there is no substitute for a good hard copy manual. When I started playing earlier this year I desperately needed some kind of instruction on what I was doing in this game, as this is my first (and so far only) mmo playing experience. So, I drove down to the local Game Stop and.requested a players manual for lotro. I was cheerfully told that one didn't exist and that I was learning to play on the wrong mmo. Undaunted me and my Lore Master soldiered on with the help of wiki and a few good friends, stumbling my way to level 85. Call me old fashioned.

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stockton67 View Post
    There are times when there is no substitute for a good hard copy manual.
    MMOs change so much over time (and have so many more features added over time) that hard copy manuals have a very limited shelf life. I got one for LOTRO when it came out - small form factor, but over 100 good-quality coated pages. I doubt it covers even half the game features at this point, and at least a third of what it does cover is now wrong.

    Khafar

  12. #62
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    There is a game manual included with the game download. It is at: Program Files (x86)\Turbine\The Lord of the Rings Online\en\LOTRO Game Manual.pdf

    But as Khafar says, it's out of date. Looks like it's Siege of Mirkwood era. Which actually predates F2P even.

    Best,

    H
    "Ephemeral" does not mean what I think it means.

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by YamydeAragon View Post
    Understood. Kids at my place are allow to walk off the school during lunch. They can wander on the town & buy the meal at the store they prefer. They have the dicipline to always return to school on time, on their own. Maybe my place is stuck back in time on many traditions in the good way.
    Back in my day, you couldn't do that. The only time you could be off campus was if you were in shop and had to take the bus to the shop, or you were in the band and had to take a trip to the state competition. Otherwise, you came to school in the morning (on time!) and left in the afternoon.
    "No sadder words of tongue or pen are the words: 'Might have been'." -- John Greenleaf Whittier
    "Do or do not. There is no try." -- Yoda
    On planet Earth, there is a try.
    Indeed, in a world and life full of change, the only constant is human nature (A is A, after all :P).
    We old vets need to keep in mind those who come after us.

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stockton67 View Post
    There are times when there is no substitute for a good hard copy manual. When I started playing earlier this year I desperately needed some kind of instruction on what I was doing in this game, as this is my first (and so far only) mmo playing experience. So, I drove down to the local Game Stop and.requested a players manual for lotro. I was cheerfully told that one didn't exist and that I was learning to play on the wrong mmo. Undaunted me and my Lore Master soldiered on with the help of wiki and a few good friends, stumbling my way to level 85. Call me old fashioned.
    The download, I think still contains an outdated manual. Let me check my files. Ah yes, here it is: http://download.turbine.com/lotro/LOTRO_Manual_Web.pdf . The SoA manual. Not of much use these days. Too bad it has not been updated.
    "No sadder words of tongue or pen are the words: 'Might have been'." -- John Greenleaf Whittier
    "Do or do not. There is no try." -- Yoda
    On planet Earth, there is a try.
    Indeed, in a world and life full of change, the only constant is human nature (A is A, after all :P).
    We old vets need to keep in mind those who come after us.

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Widoch View Post
    For the original poster, the way I look at stuff like this is in the following way. How many hours of enjoyment do you think you'll get out of the digital download? 10? 20? 100? Simply average the cost per enjoyable hour and then decide if that's worth it or not. If I go to the movie, I'll spend 8$ for a couple hours of enjoyment. If I spend $60 on something that gives me 60 hours of entertainment, it's at least a better deal than a movie.
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  16. #66
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    Are you too old? Never!

    Used to how things worked in the past? Perhaps.

    The first Collectors Edition I ever bought was for the original WoW game, and it's the only one that I've ever really considered "worth it", but that's mostly because of the in-game pets, which are kind of rare from that first CE. I bought the CEs for the expansions, but they're all sitting on shelves, collecting dust. I also bought the Warhammer CE, which I just recently trashed, and my husband bought the SWTOR CE for the statue, although neither of us play it any longer and I think that box and the other items got tossed a long time ago.

    Honestly, it's personal preference. I'd rather have in-game items because I'll interact with them more frequently, plus I don't have to dust them or move them from shelf-to-shelf. But I can see your point too.

    As for LotRO, I prefer having copies of Tolkien's books and a good guide to Middle-Earth or two on my shelf, plus the music from the soundtrack. Books and Music are all I need.
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  17. #67
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    I totally get where the OP is coming from. Though the virtual world of LOTRO induces real experiences, it doesn't make it particularly tangible to me. Perhaps it is almost tangible. Tangibility involves the ability to perceive by touch and calling LOTRO tangible is only an abstract philosophical argument (don't get me wrong, I love philosophy).

    More to the point, what really gets me is that I'm paying $60 for something that I never really "own." I enjoy the DVD, the case, the manual (the fatter the better), and I would much rather pay $60 for some special soundtrack CD, Middle Earth map, and other fan paraphernalia than digital goodies that could be taken away from me if WB/Turbine decides to pull the plug in the future.

    That being said the digital extras are nice, but I'd love to see Turbine put out options for buying hard-copy expansions with limited editions that contain some sort of goodies. Returning to the subject on tangibility, the game really does have a lot of meaning for people and is often then called tangible. Physical symbols of those 'tangible' experiences perpetuate the memory and increase tangibility for the person.

    When Turbine goes belly up someday either before or after the Mordor endgame (I hope I get to see the end and more), I want a little figurine, nice map, or fat manual to look back on and say "damn, that was a good game." I'm old school that way.
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  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hurin View Post
    There is a game manual included with the game download. It is at: Program Files (x86)\Turbine\The Lord of the Rings Online\en\LOTRO Game Manual.pdf ...But as Khafar says, it's out of date. Looks like it's Siege of Mirkwood era. Which actually predates F2P even....
    I just attempted to open the manual in the game folder & it redirected me to Gandalf page: "You shall not pass!" . Seems like it have been deleted or is in the process to be updated.

    Quote Originally Posted by cdq1958 View Post
    Back in my day, you couldn't do that. The only time you could be off campus was if you were in shop and had to take the bus to the shop, or you were in the band and had to take a trip to the state competition. Otherwise, you came to school in the morning (on time!) and left in the afternoon.
    Dude, maybe at your time & place. Back in the day at my place the school had no fence & the road was of dirt. There was no campus but a school yard. There was no band road trips in a bus & kids walk to school back & forth & still they manage to never arrive late. We are obviously talking about 2 very distant times & places.
    Last edited by YamydeAragon; Oct 22 2013 at 03:22 PM.
    Is this Alternate Playable Character Disorder? :

    Check my Kinship at Gladden server: The Fate of Middle Earth

  19. #69
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    8,696
    Quote Originally Posted by Kril View Post
    $60 USD for a piece of software I can't hold, and no physical 'fluff' even to warrant it either... Am I just getting too old for this digital download pricing scheme or what?
    What costs $60? The expansion is cheaper than that. ALWAYS ignore the high priced special editions, just get the basic set that has no fluff (although that's still $40).
    This price is comparable to other game's expansion. If you are free-to-play or premium, then you can use ala-carte pricing and save a lot of money over comparable games. If you subscribe instead then you will be given more TP in a year than is necessary to buy the expansion, so it's a good deal there as well too.

    It's not really digital download pricing, everyone will download the expansion, whether they pay for it or not. The payment is to unlock the expansion...

    Hell, the first Digital download only pack for LOTRO was the Mirkwood Expansion, sure, it was only 5 levels, but we got shared storage, wardrobe, extra character slots
    Sort of... Note that the shared storage was NOT a part of mirkwood unless you pre-ordered (alternately you could buy the shared storage and get Mirkwood free :-). Overall the price was identical to just buying Mirkwood after release, but it was their first dipping of the toe into selling game features separately from an exansion.

    Wardrobe was separate from Mirkwood, wasn't it in a later update?

    Mirkwood was also before the in-game store, which is where you can get extra slots now. And not too expansive compared to the amount of TP you get in one month of subscribing; if you don't blow all that TP on cosmetics and horses you have plenty for extra slots and expansions. The whole point of TP for VIP players I think is to entice them to spend the TP now and then later discover that they don't have any left to buy an expansion...

    (even after expanding shared storage, wardrobe, some stat tome sets, and Rohan expansion with turbine points, I still have 26 thousand saved up)

  20. #70
    "You are being asked, sight unseen to pay the price of a full game for an expansion (in a format you can't resell) that will contain drastic changes to classes and game-play. I consider it wise to try out the new system before buying at this price and under these circumstances."

    The character train skill per level needs badly, VERY badly, needs to be redone...

    It was just about perfect for L-60... (does any other old fahrts remember when they added the skill bar going from Cap-50 to Cap 60 so you could fit the buttons in?)

    It is horribly outgrown for L85 (soon 95)

    I have 4 high level alts and ONLY the warden can fit all his skills...
    And we all have skill buttons we never use, and really have to tool tip to remember what they do...

    The new system works very much like the original D&D...
    I may have a point or two in interrupt, you may have maxxed it at 5...
    But it should result in a much more tailorable alt... with fewer, but potentially much more powerful ones...

    In effect now one could have two alts, one developed as a DPS death dealing Rune Keeper,
    and one as a health cradling life support medic rune keeper...

    I think this could be one of the best ideas Turbine/Lotro has had in quite a while...
    which would play as two completely different alts...

    Jammer

  21. #71
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    491
    Quote Originally Posted by Lohi View Post
    just get the basic set that has no fluff (although that's still $40).
    Also for that $40 you get 1,000 Turbine Points, which alone is worth ~$12-15. Also you get a mount, a trinket that gives +25% xp and a cosmetic item. So for $40 you get what $20-25 worth of extra stuff?

    So... Is $60 too much for the collectors edition? Maybe, but if that's what they want to charge and people are willing to pay it, then there's no real issue. But there's also no reason why you need to buy that collectors edition. Frankly complaining about the cost of something you don't need is a bit silly. If you think it costs more then it should for what you get. Then don't buy it, seems simple enough to me. Posting about it here won't change a thing, but selling fewer collectors editions will.
    Last edited by Solarfox; Nov 01 2013 at 04:35 PM.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0520a00000023bdbd/01006/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

  22. #72

    Not too old at all

    As a matter of fact I was just thinking the exact same thing about 30minutes ago, when I was looking at the helms deep prepurchase page, credit card in hand. Why are companies charging the same prices for completely digital products as they would for hard copies!? It's makes no sense, these companies are saving a ton of money in manufacturing cost but are still asking for the same amount of money. This trend doesn't just apply to games music and movies... A lot of college textbooks are also converting to digital format. So that $230 advanced Psych textbook is STILL $230 even though their production expenses is only a fraction of what it would have been.

    I agree with the OP 100%

  23. #73
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    491
    Quote Originally Posted by GSO86 View Post
    So that $230 advanced Psych textbook is STILL $230 even though their production expenses is only a fraction of what it would have been.
    Textbooks have always been vastly over priced because you are forced to pay what ever price they charge for it. Textbooks deal with a captive customer base, so they can pretty much charge what ever they want. Kinda like the cost of pop in a airport.

    But as far as video games go... LotRO still only charges $15 a month, which is considerably less actual profit for them, then it was in 2007 when the game was released. So if they charge $60 for a digital only product. Part of that goes to cover the loss of money due to inflation.

    But also a lot of it is because people will pay that much.

    If you think it's a bad deal then don't buy it. Myself I'd never pay that much for a collectors edition, with or without physical stuff. But clearly a lot of people are willing to pay that price, and that is how the cost of things get set, based on how many people are willing to pay X for Y.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0520a00000023bdbd/01006/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

  24. #74
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    8,696
    Quote Originally Posted by GSO86 View Post
    Why are companies charging the same prices for completely digital products as they would for hard copies!? It's makes no sense,
    Savings are never passed on to the customer, no more than a fraction of it anyway. Prices are based on what it is expected that most customers will pay and then costs of production are shaved down to increase the margins of profit.

    However there is some competition at times, usually one smaller player that is undercutting the big boys but who is not large enough to put pressure on everyone to drop prices to match. Ie, GOG.com (good old games) sells things more cheaply than Steam and without DRM, though they tend to be older games, and it's a smaller site and not much competition.

  25. #75
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    554
    Lotro is one of the few games you can earn in-game currency and buy expansions that way if you don't want to spend real $ (or don't agree with Turbine's pricing). Stop spending your TP on fluff and save it for the future.

 

 
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