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  1. #1
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    Fall of Sauron, probably most ironic and "stupidest" downfall of any villian yet

    Born Before! the creation of Arda

    Right hand of Morgoth - Incarnation of Evil

    The Abhorred,Dark Lord, Lord of Mordor, Lord of Gifts, Lord of Barad-Dûr, Lord of the Earth, The Lord of the Ring.

    Most feared and powerful force in Middle-Earth during Second and Third age............

    ......Pwned by two little hobbits from the Shire...

    I was always shocked and amazed of his Ironic downfall.

    He spent enormous amount of time planing , preparing and corrupting elves,men,dwarves and even kings of old to conquer and destory anything he deisred and yet he falls in his own land by the very thing he created...

    He had perfect fighting force that could wipe out entire Middle-earth by ease. He built fortress of Barad-Dur of immense strength that can't be destoryed and dwarfs any other strongholds out there. Makes it look like sh it.


    Its stupid..

    If I was Tolkien I would made totally different ending. I would wipe out hobbits - They would be be devoured by Sheolb or sent to slave fields of Nurn or dungeons of Barad-Dur left to root...


    Sauron obtains ring again so he takes his physical form again. An alternate approach


    Its all wrong srsly.


    Sauron's Dominance will not last long. However, I fear the Valar will not intervene this time...and I think the elves will pass to the west...because all the beautiful things that they came to Middle-Earth for would have been ruined.( In my opinion, they came for the silmarils and the beautiful things they wish to see and have a realm of their own)
    The Dwarves would have been conquered and destroyed...leaving only a few ragged bands of Dwarves leading a rebellion. ( IMO, Sauron hates dwarves as they cannot be corrupted and thus dominated to do his bidding...so he will just destroy them so as to elimate the threat they pose)
    Well...as for man, Gondor and Rohan will fall but they will fufill the role set up for them and eventually defeat Sauron ( It is said that Man will overcome evil with their great courage in the end

    Yea that would do it.

  2. #2
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    Do my eyes play tricks on me?

    An actual serious post by Vani??
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Melunielsigh View Post
    ......Pwned by two little hobbits from the Shire...
    No, he isn't - because Frodo actually fails at the last minute, when he tries to claim the Ring for himself - it's actually Gollum and his 'accidental' stumble over the edge of the abyss that saves the day. And that, as it turns out, was a little bit of divine intervention to make everything turn out right (if you read Tolkien's letters) so it wasn't really hobbits that did for Sauron, it was a higher power. Frodo and Sam just played their part by getting the Ring that far - Tolkien said that nobody could have destroyed it willingly. The whole point of it is that Sauron couldn't have been stopped any other way because he'd got so many Men from the East and South at his command - it was being shown visions of that via Minas Tirith's palantir which had driven Denethor to despair, that military victory was impossible.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    No, he isn't - because Frodo actually fails at the last minute, when he tries to claim the Ring for himself - it's actually Gollum and his 'accidental' stumble over the edge of the abyss that saves the day. And that, as it turns out, was a little bit of divine intervention to make everything turn out right (if you read Tolkien's letters) so it wasn't really hobbits that did for Sauron, it was a higher power. Frodo and Sam just played their part by getting the Ring that far - Tolkien said that nobody could have destroyed it willingly. The whole point of it is that Sauron couldn't have been stopped any other way because he'd got so many Men from the East and South at his command - it was being shown visions of that via Minas Tirith's palantir which had driven Denethor to despair, that military victory was impossible.

    Damn those Valar always interfere and ruin all. I should have known...

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    No, he isn't - because Frodo actually fails at the last minute, when he tries to claim the Ring for himself - it's actually Gollum and his 'accidental' stumble over the edge of the abyss that saves the day. And that, as it turns out, was a little bit of divine intervention to make everything turn out right (if you read Tolkien's letters) so it wasn't really hobbits that did for Sauron, it was a higher power. Frodo and Sam just played their part by getting the Ring that far - Tolkien said that nobody could have destroyed it willingly. The whole point of it is that Sauron couldn't have been stopped any other way because he'd got so many Men from the East and South at his command - it was being shown visions of that via Minas Tirith's palantir which had driven Denethor to despair, that military victory was impossible.
    Actually incorrect, Tolkien described Sauron as a tyrant parallel, so he is a power-monger and he evetually mistakes like any tyrant and pass out from history just as they came into it.

    Sauron was also a very incompetent military tactician, there was a discussion a while ago about the series of mistakes that led him to be destroyed for the great joy of everyone else I might add. Divine Intervention was the Maia(Wizards) and Gollum if any, everything else was cooperation of friendship.

    Even the smallest creature can change the course of history, I think that is the main lesson.
    Last edited by Al.; Oct 14 2013 at 06:19 PM.

  6. #6
    I've been a fan of LOTR/The hobbit for a long time, and although this thread might be a joke or something I think it still points out one of the finer, subtler points in all of the trilogy: that Sauron's efforts are not destroyed by vast armies of Men, Elves, or even Dwarves, but by perhaps a twist of fate, and some irony? That was it not for Gollum's presence the ring would not have been destroyed, Gandalf hints at Gollum having some important part to play. After everything the Fellowship had been through together, and after the breaking of the fellowship, everything that Frodo and Sam had been through, after the Battle at Helm's deep, the Ride of the Rohirrim, The paths of the Dead, the Batle of the Pellenor fields, the March on the Black Gate, Frodo's quest failed, he claimed the ring as his own, the Nazgul would not have taken long to get to the Crack of Doom, if it wasn't for Gollum's obsession with his precious, the ring may not have been destroyed.
    I think PJ's ending loses some of that point mentioned above, I can understand that filming Tolkien's ending could seem anticlimactic--Gollum celebrates, jumps around, and falls off, destroying the ring--may not work out visually, but having the two struggle at the brink of the fires, with Frodo surviving, well, it loses some of the irony. I don't nitpick much over some of PJ's script/plot decisions, but in this case I think he should have trusted the professor.

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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by medwulf View Post
    I've been a fan of LOTR/The hobbit for a long time, and although this thread might be a joke or something I think it still points out one of the finer, subtler points in all of the trilogy: that Sauron's efforts are not destroyed by vast armies of Men, Elves, or even Dwarves, but by perhaps a twist of fate, and some irony? That was it not for Gollum's presence the ring would not have been destroyed, Gandalf hints at Gollum having some important part to play. After everything the Fellowship had been through together, and after the breaking of the fellowship, everything that Frodo and Sam had been through, after the Battle at Helm's deep, the Ride of the Rohirrim, The paths of the Dead, the Batle of the Pellenor fields, the March on the Black Gate, Frodo's quest failed, he claimed the ring as his own, the Nazgul would not have taken long to get to the Crack of Doom, if it wasn't for Gollum's obsession with his precious, the ring may not have been destroyed.
    I think PJ's ending loses some of that point mentioned above, I can understand that filming Tolkien's ending could seem anticlimactic--Gollum celebrates, jumps around, and falls off, destroying the ring--may not work out visually, but having the two struggle at the brink of the fires, with Frodo surviving, well, it loses some of the irony. I don't nitpick much over some of PJ's script/plot decisions, but in this case I think he should have trusted the professor.
    Actually you named it, all those things are both cooperation, good timing, fellowship and a bit of luck good guys have.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al. View Post
    Actually incorrect, Tolkien described Sauron as a tyrant parallel, so he is a power-monger and he evetually mistakes like any tyrant and pass out from history just as they came into it.

    Sauron was also a very incompetent military tactician, there was a discussion a while ago about the series of mistakes that led him to be destroyed for the great joy of everyone else I might add. Divine Intervention was the Maia(Wizards) and Gollum if any, everything else was cooperation of friendship.

    Even the smallest creature can change the course of history, I think that is the main lesson.
    Of course Sauron was a tyrant but that doesn't mean that even him making mistakes would make him easy to overthrow, ever, because he was immortal and terribly powerful so he's not like just any tyrant. He doesn't just come into Middle-earth's history, like the other Ainur he existed before the world was even made. And the first time he'd overrun most of Middle-earth, only the Numenoreans could defeat him. Militarily his plan for the War of the Ring makes sense - he's got everyone kept busy so they can't unite against him, not bad considering he'd had to go to war sooner than he'd wanted to (before he could gather all his forces). What leads him to be destroyed has nothing to do with his competence at waging war on people. His powers aren't left unchallenged, most notably when the wind from the West lifts the dark cloud he'd cast over Minas Tirith - the good guys were being helped by the Powers, there. And he'd assumed that nobody could destroy the Ring, and in point of fact he was dead right. Nobody did, at least not intentionally. Tolkien himself said that a higher power intervened to destroy the Ring when Frodo couldn't do it; it had nothing to do with the Wizards at all. Or cooperation, or friendship except inasmuch as they got the Ring to the right place at the right time, and allowed the intervention to take place that actually destroyed it.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    Of course Sauron was a tyrant but that doesn't mean that even him making mistakes would make him easy to overthrow, ever, because he was immortal and terribly powerful so he's not like just any tyrant. He doesn't just come into Middle-earth's history, like the other Ainur he existed before the world was even made. And the first time he'd overrun most of Middle-earth, only the Numenoreans could defeat him. Militarily his plan for the War of the Ring makes sense - he's got everyone kept busy so they can't unite against him, not bad considering he'd had to go to war sooner than he'd wanted to (before he could gather all his forces). What leads him to be destroyed has nothing to do with his competence at waging war on people. His powers aren't left unchallenged, most notably when the wind from the West lifts the dark cloud he'd cast over Minas Tirith - the good guys were being helped by the Powers, there. And he'd assumed that nobody could destroy the Ring, and in point of fact he was dead right. Nobody did, at least not intentionally. Tolkien himself said that a higher power intervened to destroy the Ring when Frodo couldn't do it; it had nothing to do with the Wizards at all. Or cooperation, or friendship except inasmuch as they got the Ring to the right place at the right time, and allowed the intervention to take place that actually destroyed it.
    whatever mate

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al. View Post
    Actually incorrect, Tolkien described Sauron as a tyrant parallel, so he is a power-monger and he evetually mistakes like any tyrant and pass out from history just as they came into it.

    Sauron was also a very incompetent military tactician, there was a discussion a while ago about the series of mistakes that led him to be destroyed for the great joy of everyone else I might add. Divine Intervention was the Maia(Wizards) and Gollum if any, everything else was cooperation of friendship.

    Even the smallest creature can change the course of history, I think that is the main lesson.
    I know I'm probably troll baiting with this one, but what the heck...I'll bite.

    Re-read the thread. Sauron's mistake was not considering the Free Peoples wanted to destroy the Ring. The rest he did was actually pretty sound military strategy, considering he was immortal and had to look at things on a large time scale.
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    Here is now both white and red, And all so the stone to quicken the dead[/I][I].
    The Bird of Hermes is my name, Eating my wings to make me tame.[/I]

  11. #11
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    I'm guessing that this is a troll thread, but in the event that you are serious:




    Sauron's downfall was the result of him thinking one thing and the Free Peoples having a completely different plan in mind. Sauron believed that some powerful person (Gandalf, Galadriel, Elrond, etc.) would come out to challenge him, wielding the One Ring. It never entered his mind (until the last moment, that is) that the Free Peoples wished to destroy the Ring. Claiming the Ring would have been the easier route, and so he supposed that would be the choice they would make. Hence the reason he put forth his brute strength searching for the Ring.

    If he had known what they had decided upon, he could've just "turtled up" guard all the borders of his land so that none could enter. The Quest at that point most likely would've been futile.
    I've been at the mercy of men just following orders. Never again.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Melunielsigh View Post
    If I was Tolkien
    Mighty glad you ain't!
    Today is a good day for Pie.

    Do not meddle in the affairs of Burglars, for they are subtle and quick to shank you.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by bambubambubambu View Post
    Mighty glad you ain't!
    You and me both, what a waste of time actually reading the OP.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by medwulf View Post
    .... Sauron's efforts are not destroyed by vast armies of Men, Elves, or even Dwarves, but by perhaps a twist of fate, and some irony? That was it not for Gollum's presence the ring would not have been destroyed, Gandalf hints at Gollum having some important part to play .... if it wasn't for Gollum's obsession with his precious, the ring may not have been destroyed.
    I think PJ's ending loses some of that point mentioned above.
    Yes, yes, yes. The only element you have left out (also by PJ) was that, on the slopes of Orodruin, Frodo had used the Ring to curse Gollum, "If you touch me ever again, you shall be cast yourself into the Fire of Doom.": fate/irony/providence placed Gollum in position, as foreseen by Gandalf's intuition, and the Ring's own malice and corrupt Power achieved its own destruction; as Théoden noted, "oft evil will shall evil mar".

    BTW, Gollum also fulfilled the obligation of his earlier oath, "never, never, to let Him have it".

    HoG

  15. #15
    Saurons biggest drawback was probably same as every egoist with power has. He based his reasoning from himself, not being able to comprehend that others might have done differently or taking the route where there is least to win, instead of the one where there is much to gain and less to risk. So that was his "mistake", though it is not certain he could have done anything about his thinking.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by EddieMuerto View Post
    Saurons biggest drawback was probably same as every egoist with power has. He based his reasoning from himself, not being able to comprehend that others might have done differently or taking the route where there is least to win, instead of the one where there is much to gain and less to risk. So that was his "mistake", though it is not certain he could have done anything about his thinking.
    /thread good job eddiemuerto

  17. #17
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    I'm going from memory since I don't have a book with me, but didn't Gandalf at the Council of Rivendell say something to the effect that taking the ring to be thrown in Mount Doom was the last thing he would expect? I think it was around the part of debating whether or not to throw it in the ocean.
    Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymphonic View Post
    I'm going from memory since I don't have a book with me, but didn't Gandalf at the Council of Rivendell say something to the effect that taking the ring to be thrown in Mount Doom was the last thing he would expect? I think it was around the part of debating whether or not to throw it in the ocean.
    I know this was definitely in the film (EE), so I would not be surprised if it came from the book. I have not yet though memorized the book (I'm working on it) so I cannot say for certain.

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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laire View Post
    I have not yet though memorized the book (I'm working on it)

    Working on memorizing the book. I love it!

    BTW, I'm from SoCal too, San Diego.
    Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"
    Continuing the never ending battle to keep Lobelia Sackville-Baggins in check

 

 

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