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  1. #1

    Question on PVP in LOTRO's Moors

    Hi guys,

    I am currently doing a research on the PVP of LOTRO.

    The question I would like to ask is why do people still PVP if the Moors is unbalanced, i.e. the Freep classes are more developed than the Creep classes.

    Is there any gameplay that attracts you to play in the moors?

  2. #2
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    I started playing creepside in the moors about 6 months ago semi-seriously, mainly because at that point, I'd made 3 of my characters raid ready (IMO - others may disagree) at level cap (mini healer, guard tank and champ), and owing to illness, I had a lot of time up my sleeve.

    It was something different, something that I'd not really done before (my mini has some experience out there, got it to R5 during RoI), and I found the community on creepside quite welcoming and helpful.

    In short, it was variety, and I was a little burnt out on leveling and getting characters raid-ready, only for everyone to only be doing Sambrog, OE and BfE T1 runs. It was something different.

  3. #3
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    Like Scruffynerf said, it's variety. Another point is that when an expansion is released, the Creeps get a break for a while before a lot of Freeps have levelled up enough to get back into the moors. (That process can take some of them an entire day or two ) It's a good time to play PVE Creep and avoid the region specific lag fest of Opening Day.
    Cener, Ingo, Rilibald, Hesred, Halras, Loringo
    Arkenstone (ex-Elendilmir) - The Osgiliath Guard
    [url]http://www.theoldergamers.com[/url]

  4. #4
    Well thankfully freeps aren't completely invincible yet (something that will no doubt be rectified with enough time and freep tears) so whenever we do manage to bring one down I enjoy a thoroughly good corpse jumping to remind them how terrible they are.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by weiminc38 View Post
    Hi guys,

    I am currently doing a research on the PVP of LOTRO.

    The question I would like to ask is why do people still PVP if the Moors is unbalanced, i.e. the Freep classes are more developed than the Creep classes.

    Is there any gameplay that attracts you to play in the moors?

    Some people enjoy fighting real people rather than NPC's, Some like seeing that rank symbol next to their character portrait, etc.


    There's a multitude of reasons for playing out there.

  6. #6
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    imagine, even though it is unbalanced, it still is fun for some of us... just started about a month ago and i am hooked

  7. #7
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    When classes are played to their full extent freeps almost always have the upper hand in the moors but despite its obvious flaws I still really enjoy PvP in LOTRO. The idea of open map warfare promotes different kinds of PvP, small groups, solo and raids can be accommodated for and although you have to suffer being rolled over sometimes I still find this more fun than structured 5v5 etc etc.

    Who knows, maybe the new skill trees for freeps will level the playing field a bit and we can get even more people interested in the moors :

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by weiminc38 View Post
    Hi guys,

    I am currently doing a research on the PVP of LOTRO.

    The question I would like to ask is why do people still PVP if the Moors is unbalanced, i.e. the Freep classes are more developed than the Creep classes.

    Is there any gameplay that attracts you to play in the moors?

    Most people using Creep toons in the 'Moors are taking a break from their Freep toons, they aren't dedicated Creeps (and don't have to be). So they are not so hung up about the results they get while using a Creep. They just have fun trying to rank up a bit and score some commendations for either their Creep toon or Freep.

    Those who are using Freep toons in PvMP are more likely to take the game seriously. This is understandable seeing as Freep toons are a product of the far greater part of the whole game anyway.
    There are some few of us who more often than not use a Creep in PvMP and so we are more concerned with the quality of PvMP from a Creep perspective. This is my observation as best yet concise as I can put it.

    The imbalance is a complex issue when thought through (here I go :/). The few weeks or so after an expansion ( RoI for e.g.) most Freep players are levelling and making every attempt to get the best gear possible. They will also use a Creep toon during this time as a means of scoring commendations, by way of PVE mostly, for their Freep. This can be easier than using a freep toon in the 'Moors that they regard as not yet geared for PvMP. Some will say that this is not much to do with imbalance, well maybe it is, and maybe not directly so. This has been my past observation.

    Creep toons at this time will start out with what they get and wont expect any further developmental opportunities for the part of the player, except maybe a little tweak or such. Our skills, traits and such may be worked on a little by the Dev's and implemented during a hotfix or whatever they call it. At times seeming for the better (per where they were prior) and there are times when it may seem that little effort and thought was applied to the adjusting/addition at all.
    Then further on down the track FA symbols and all such bonus items are available. Some of these may be store bought others need to be worked for. At any rate Freep toons start to outstrip Creep toons in nearly all departments. As I say, there are no such further opportunities for development on the part of Creep players, just level up audacity and hope to have enough commendations left over to get a few decent skills, traits and corruptions. This is where the imbalance becomes most apparent. But us Creeps keep marching on and enjoy the game as best we can. I wont drone about the problems with the Creep corruption format. Although briefly this a reasonably accurate description.


    Hopefully what I say above helps answer you, and there is more to mention but I wont bore you =).

    I haven't taken the trouble to properly fill my profile: Soulwarg, Medicineman, Feaboreth and some others, also Freeps: Draic, Swanerwolf, Gufred, Rinhaldir. Look me up if you want to know the race and class. Oops I forgot, Of Crickhollow, the best little server there is.

    See you in the trenches.
    Last edited by MonkeyTamer; Oct 14 2013 at 07:32 AM. Reason: Tell which server my toons are on :/

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by weiminc38 View Post
    Hi guys,

    I am currently doing a research on the PVP of LOTRO.

    The question I would like to ask is why do people still PVP if the Moors is unbalanced, i.e. the Freep classes are more developed than the Creep classes.

    Is there any gameplay that attracts you to play in the moors?
    My observation is that in general (from playing both sides), is that at low rank creeps are underpowered, and at high ranks are overpowered. Freeps fall somewhere in the middle. 1 vs 1 a high rank creep(12+) will almost always roll a freep if played well.

    Creeps can also buy their rank 15 skills in the tp store, skills originally only intended for someone who's played for years. Spider burrow heal is a good example of this.

    Many creeps will whine about freeps being op and demand buffs for themselves or nerfs to freeps. However they seem to be ignoring this simple dynamic, which I believe is intended by the devs.

    Some creeps will claim that in most raid situations freeps will prevail. Have you ever seen a raid of mostly high rank creeps? frightening.

    Also bear in mind that creeps can warp all over the map with short cooldown maps, while freeps have to run everywhere. Freeps have horses yes, but they are not that much faster than a creep's ooc run speed buffs. This makes creeps a much more mobile and responsive force, and allows then to gank in force quickly and efficiently. Creeps can and often do buy these maps from the tp store, as they do their rank 14 and 15 skills.

    I am not making any judgment here, this is merely my observation from playing both sides.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/082070000000d6cff/01002/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

  10. #10
    It's like a game of chess. There's a challenge to it. On a good day even a novice can beat a Grand Master. Doesn't happen often but it can happen.

    There's a lot of repetitive tactics that are like chess openings or gambits. It's confusing at first because there's no manual on them but you can learn them by observation. Learning the tactics leads to understanding the dynamics better.

    Each player has strengths and weaknesses. Just like a chess game, knowing your opponent is important. When will they break, who runs, who stays.

    Winning is all in the view. Last night we were few creeps against many freeps. The win was 1 kill in 10 attempts (maybe 1 in 20) but getting away was just as much fun as getting a kill. It requires a lot more teamwork to get away than it does to get a kill and some good heals doesn't hurt either.

    And of course I can always pick up my huaraches and leave if it gets too lopsided.
    Whoever says “I” creates the “you.” Such is the trap of every conscience. The “I” signifies both solitude and rejection of solitude. Words name things and then replace them. Whoever says tomorrow, denies it. Tomorrow exists only for him who does not seek it. And yesterday? Yesterday is Kolvillàg: a name to forget, a word already forgotten.

    The Oath: A Novel by Elie Wiesel

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by douglasburns View Post
    (snip)
    Also bear in mind that creeps can warp all over the map with short cooldown maps, while freeps have to run everywhere. Freeps have horses yes, but they are not that much faster than a creep's ooc run speed buffs.(snip)
    Oh dear, so that's why a freep raid cannot ride over my poor little old defiler? He's foot speed is as good as a freep on a horse? Not true of course. OOC foot speed is way slower than horses.

    I'd trade my creep maps in a nano second for a riding warg and greater mobility. Especially the part that has my defiler mount up and ride away...
    Whoever says “I” creates the “you.” Such is the trap of every conscience. The “I” signifies both solitude and rejection of solitude. Words name things and then replace them. Whoever says tomorrow, denies it. Tomorrow exists only for him who does not seek it. And yesterday? Yesterday is Kolvillàg: a name to forget, a word already forgotten.

    The Oath: A Novel by Elie Wiesel

  12. #12
    The moors is essentially a pvp sandbox. There is no balance between/across freep classes or creep races.

    I look at the balance thing as a problem for people that want to keep score in 1v1s, to know that they won an objectively fair fight.

    Leave that behind for group play. Sometimes you're the steamroller, sometimes you're the roadkill. And then sometimes, just sometimes, you get a nice running battle where both sides are having fun. Adjust your gameplay to try to keep things going. Wipe them in a fight among your own npcs? Take to the open field. Wipe them open field? Push their keep. Keep winning? Split up into smaller groups to defend/take outposts or a keep, or take some greenies off on a map quest.

    Judging from ooc there seems to be plenty of balancing going on for 1v1s too, negotiations over which skills should be used by which class.

    Balance seems to be a bigger issue for games (such as the one in a galaxy far far away) that have pvp instances where things are supposed to be 'fair'. Sandboxes aren't fair unless you put in the effort to make it so.

    As for why I still play the moors, I enjoy the cooperative nature of it.

    Another reason why Lotro is different: Pretty much by definition, the two sides (monsters, free peoples) are not reconcilable, so continual warfare is compatible with natural law. I get, I dunno, call it squeamish? playing games with a bunch of humans (or more or less thinking, social beings anyway) mutilating each other for eternity over shallow political differences.

    Somehow it's more acceptable to put the smackdown on an innocent hobbit lass when you are playing a carnivore. And they do deserve it -- I still fall for that 'I'm just a little hobbit all alone in the Grimwood' trick.

    --
    Gurrauth of Gladden

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by SabrielofLorien View Post
    Oh dear, so that's why a freep raid cannot ride over my poor little old defiler? He's foot speed is as good as a freep on a horse? Not true of course. OOC foot speed is way slower than horses.

    I'd trade my creep maps in a nano second for a riding warg and greater mobility. Especially the part that has my defiler mount up and ride away...
    Here comes the whining I was talking about. I said ALMOST as good. Good job only stating the quote after the 'almost'. Which means freeps can catch you, if a bit slower that if you had no boosts.

    By ALL means remove creep maps and give freeps the same runspeed boost creeps get (or remove the boost altogether, or allow both sides mounts). There is not a freep in existence that would not jump on that deal in a second.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/082070000000d6cff/01002/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

  14. #14
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    Sure it's unfair, but I can still beat people who don't know what they are doing. Also, I mainly 1v1, they are usually fair. When RvR gets too healstacked I log, or play around on my low lv freeps. This game is fun, I like it. Things are just tilted to he people who pay more, I don't understand why people seem to be so outraged.
    It's a game, treat it as such.

  15. #15
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    I just started PvP a few weeks ago. For me, it's interesting to play against real people who don't behave the way that mobs do. I can't sit around expecting a guard to take everyone's threat while we pound away on everyone. Makes things more realistic and challenging. And it just makes a nice change after a couple years of "the usual".

    I'm not very well equipped right now (up to R5), and I can say that 1 on 1 I don't stand a chance against a high-level creep. I get steamrollered on a regular basis when one catches me alone. Probably my tactics need work, but really I hardly even dent their morale bar. I did beat up one low-level warg who jumped me while I was almost dead soloing 2 trolls, and managed to kill him AND the trolls. This makes me think that low-level creeps are underpowered and high-level ones are overpowered. But I don't really mind that, there needs to be an incentive to rank up on both sides. Things will never be perfectly balanced.

  16. #16
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    The Moors is imbalanced largely due to developer incompetence. Simple as that. I don't care what is said; the solutions (or at least improvements) to PVMP imbalance are blatantly obvious and are ignored time and time again.

    I continue playing because of the social aspect. I am a tribe leader. On top of that, it is completely free. Finally, LotRO's Moors haven't been properly updated since their creation. This means that a lot of what made the game good back in SoA is still present in the Moors.

  17. #17
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    My tribe, a few other good fellows outside of it, and an irl friend keep me coming back to the game. And I do prefer to spend my time fighting actual people and not NPCs.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by weiminc38 View Post
    Hi guys,

    I am currently doing a research on the PVP of LOTRO.

    The question I would like to ask is why do people still PVP if the Moors is unbalanced, i.e. the Freep classes are more developed than the Creep classes.

    Is there any gameplay that attracts you to play in the moors?
    Being able to progress and 'win' against heavy odds is pretty satisfying as far as gaming satisfaction goes.

    Also monsters are cool. Also some people don't want to grind for gear - with monsters you can avoid that for the most part.

    Also and personally, I really like playing non-humanoid characters. Ideally I could play an owl or a cheetah, but that game hasn't been made yet.
    Purely~Scrumptious

  19. #19
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    We may be underpowered, we may have the odds stacked way against us at/most of the times but we have the best fun. You can't beat that

    .....and I luv being a sneaky cute lovable Warg

  20. #20
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    Talking Need some balance

    Quote Originally Posted by douglasburns View Post
    My observation is that in general (from playing both sides), is that at low rank creeps are underpowered, and at high ranks are overpowered. Freeps fall somewhere in the middle. 1 vs 1 a high rank creep(12+) will almost always roll a freep if played well.

    - Hardly ever true, if I just look at the spars this isn´t true. Most freep classes have the advantage of tanking, dps and healing combined in one class. Only some better freep players or just fair minded individuals make spars fair by not using heals nor induction skills. Next time you play in the Moors check out how wardens, lms, champions and rks fight. Come back when you can say which creep class the potency of being so OP.

    Creeps can also buy their rank 15 skills in the tp store, skills originally only intended for someone who's played for years. Spider burrow heal is a good example of this.

    - R15 skills. Having defiler, warg and blackarrow. Wonder if you know more than me, but there isn´t any r15 skills. Anyway why should creeps have not even all skills when they start? To stop this crying about bought skills is to grant them to creeps. Even though I like ranking and getting skills, freeps seem not to remember they have all skills from the beginning. Mentioning burrow is kinda lol. Not a match winning skill.

    Many creeps will whine about freeps being op and demand buffs for themselves or nerfs to freeps. However they seem to be ignoring this simple dynamic, which I believe is intended by the devs.

    - Some freeps whine creeps being OP o_0 ^^^YOU!

    Some creeps will claim that in most raid situations freeps will prevail. Have you ever seen a raid of mostly high rank creeps? frightening.

    - Define frightening? Something that makes you go to pve in Bree while creeps take an op?

    Also bear in mind that creeps can warp all over the map with short cooldown maps, while freeps have to run everywhere. Freeps have horses yes, but they are not that much faster than a creep's ooc run speed buffs. This makes creeps a much more mobile and responsive force, and allows then to gank in force quickly and efficiently. Creeps can and often do buy these maps from the tp store, as they do their rank 14 and 15 skills.

    - Freeps can buy all their relics, traits, pots, buffs as well and all sort of stuff to make them harder to beat. Maps is a response to the fact creeps can´t ride.

    I am not making any judgment here, this is merely my observation from playing both sides.
    - Quite obviously very short of much new to pvp but you took 5 mins of my life to write this response. Good luck finding complaints about freeps.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by BiteMarks View Post

    .....and I luv being a sneaky cute lovable Warg
    I love being a seven foot tall, muscled killing machine.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squelcher View Post
    I love being a seven foot tall, muscled killing machine.
    ...Ditto

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by douglasburns View Post
    My observation is that in general (from playing both sides), is that at low rank creeps are underpowered, and at high ranks are overpowered. Freeps fall somewhere in the middle. 1 vs 1 a high rank creep(12+) will almost always roll a freep if played well.

    Creeps can also buy their rank 15 skills in the tp store, skills originally only intended for someone who's played for years. Spider burrow heal is a good example of this.

    Many creeps will whine about freeps being op and demand buffs for themselves or nerfs to freeps. However they seem to be ignoring this simple dynamic, which I believe is intended by the devs.

    Some creeps will claim that in most raid situations freeps will prevail. Have you ever seen a raid of mostly high rank creeps? frightening.

    Also bear in mind that creeps can warp all over the map with short cooldown maps, while freeps have to run everywhere. Freeps have horses yes, but they are not that much faster than a creep's ooc run speed buffs. This makes creeps a much more mobile and responsive force, and allows then to gank in force quickly and efficiently. Creeps can and often do buy these maps from the tp store, as they do their rank 14 and 15 skills.

    I am not making any judgment here, this is merely my observation from playing both sides.
    Oh my, just stumbled upon a 'lil gold mine here, rofl. No further comments, I'll just say thanks for the laugh! \o/

  24. #24
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    Freep PvE has been so progressively dumbed down over time that I pretty much can't die unless I fall asleep at the keyboard. There simply isn't any challenge for me, and LI's became a meaningless grind for me; so I abandoned freep-side (albeit that I'm grateful to those who don't so that creeps have someone to fight).

    Creep-side there is constant theat (which equals challenge and requires thought and skill which equals meaningful fun for me) and community and all sorts of actual personalities (which means teamwork which I value).

    I'm glad Turbine have finally done something re the cheaters, beyond which I simply accept most 'imbalance' issues as part of the challenge.

 

 

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