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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khafar View Post
    If I break the rules (which is uncommon, but does happen), I take responsibility for it. I don't complain about consequences, and I don't cry about others actually applying the rules. Nor do I apologize when I'm helping to apply those rules - like here. Laws/rules are part of the foundation for civil societies. Each and every one doesn't need my personal OK before I'll try to abide by them.

    If you name your character "MDMArocks" and someone reports you for it, you'll get a forced name change. That's 100% on you. Not on the person who reported you, and not on the company who applied its own rules.

    Khafar
    Actually I prefer the Greek concept of 'Anarchos'. It means 'one without rulers'. Note that I'm pointing to the ancient Greek version here, not the 'modern' connotation. The ancient Greeks believed that it was possible that each individual could be SO responsible in and of themselves, as an entire society, that Malum prohibitum (wrong because it's illegal, such as 'speeding') wasn't needed. Only Malum in se (wrong because it's inherently evil or damaging. Murder, theft, etc.)

    I'm certainly not complaining or whining about anything here. And to my knowledge, neither is the individual who was 'reported' by the OP. No one is saying 'oh boo hoo, we broke the rules and have to pay the piper.' What people are saying is, in effect, urging others to stop being such jellyfish and hypocrites.

    Most of you arguing in favor have admitted that you break the rules whenever you like. Speeding, covenents, things that you've lawfully signed your name to that you've agreed to uphold under penalty of law.

    You freely admit that you throw these things to the wind, and yet think in some twisted version of reality that you have the high ground.

    But in the same breath you then say that you are willing to accept the consequences of your actions. Good, as well you should.

    But see, here's the rub. If you TRULY believed in the 'rule of law' in the first place, you'd not break those laws, no matter how minor. You'd not speed, or break your covenant. Ever.
    Or you'd do your utmost in that regard as much as humanly possible.

    I do not speed. Ever. I do not break anything I've signed my name to. Ever.

    Not because it's against the rules, but because I personally choose to be responsible. Going 55 mph down a residential neighborhood street where there are kids and a posted 25 mph speed limit is NOT responsible adult behavior. (Anyone who does so isn't just 'breaking the speed limit', they are endangering children's lives.)

    Realize that every single one of us has their own line. Everyone has an artificial line in the sand regulating just how far they will or will not move it.

    Alcohol was legal once upon a time. Then illegal. And now legal again. Think of all the people who died when it was 'illegal'. Think of the trauma it created just because it was the 'law' at the time. It seems silly now, years later after the fact. Just a historical footnote. I guarantee the folks living in the time took it very seriously. If you went to a speakeasy looking for a drink, in many cases you could be risking your life. That's an awful lot of risk for a drink. But folks did it.

    I think that what I'm basically saying here, is get off the high horse. You have no high ground. None, whatsoever.
    Last edited by Kaynith; Oct 15 2013 at 11:34 AM. Reason: Forum didn't recognize Greek letters. Go figure...
    Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar, tenn’ Ambar-metta!

  2. #102
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    I think I've said my piece on this thread, time for me to move on.

    Most of the responses seem to have been as follows:

    "I follow and help enforce the rule of law... except when I don't agree with it. Then I break it freely without a second thought."

    Or...

    "I tout the rules and then flout the ones I don't like."

    All of this sounds an awful lot like ol Hippy McHypocrite to me. Next.
    Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar, tenn’ Ambar-metta!

  3. #103
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    If it bothers you, file the ticket and let Turbine decide. You have not done anything except shine a light. You have done nothing shameful. Just because someone is in your kin does not mean you have to go to the wall for them.

    We had a very liberal policy for inviting people into our kin (we are all officers). Leader invited someone, and after talking with this person for probably ten minutes, it became clear this person would not fit in with us. In fact his views were 'out there' in terms of what our laid back, everyone welcome kin would even think. Now for me, I was not too bent out of shape, probably would have voted to kick him if we did have a discussion. Our #2 kicked him on the spot, without discussion (leader had logged off)! We are all like, whoa huh? But #2 had every right, and he probably was right not to draw out the incident.
    Kinships: Fifth Star Vagabonds on Crickhollow (Dotswith); Random Access on Arkenstone (Dottiel)

  4. #104
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    It seems apparent to me that Turbine has a threshold for naming violations. No matter how offensive or rule breaking the name is, they don't seem to change it unless multiple people report it. The same seems to go for chat violations, cheating, etc.

    That said, Report what bothers you. It may mean that nothing happens, or it may mean that it offended someone else and your extra report finally made the change that will make multiple people happy. Name violators are not the victims here. They broke a clearly defined rule. Your reporting that is not anything to worry about.

    I've seen full blown profanity in names, not even misspelled run around for weeks after a report. And I've seen names with completely obscure near-meanings that 99.9% wouldn't understand get changed. As others have said... report, and let Turbine decide.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glumposneak View Post
    When I was on Eldar before we joined the US servers , my main character was called Sneakaboo and I was called boo for short and every character of mine had boo in its name somewhere.
    Some of my kin decided to move to the US servers before we new Codemasters was loosing their licence, and we joined Riddermark.
    When I introduced myself as boo, I got a lot of funny remarks as it turns out unbeknown to me, boo is some sort of ghetto slang in the US, hence I'm now known as sneak.
    News to me. Might be regional slang. The US is a reasonably big place. Now if it were "bro", that I've heard of. Indeed, I recently saw a man wearing a sweatshirt that said, "Don't 'bro' me if you don't know me" which rather pointedly shows the way the term is being abused.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaynith View Post
    It was back when Marilyn Manson was new on the music scene, mid 90's or so. Anyway, he said, hey, have you heard of MM? I said no, who's that?
    I might have looked at him and asked if 3M had dropped one...

    ...move your line....
    I see. That's usually called "moral relativism". Some people like and support it, some don't. Most people are somewhere in between. Harry Harrison made good use of that tension in the "Stainless Steel Rat".

    And, by the way, I dislike most modern music. Fortunately, there is enough music I do like available that no line moving is required. All I ask is that others keep the sound level low enough so as not to bother those around them and I will happily do the same. (It has occurred to me to attach a wall transducer the the outer paneling of a car door and switch a Sousa march through it when confronted with someone blasting rap at high volume, but so far I have refrained from doing so.)

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by hucklebarry View Post
    It seems apparent to me that Turbine has a threshold for naming violations. No matter how offensive or rule breaking the name is, they don't seem to change it unless multiple people report it.
    Yup. They've actually said that, in sense of stating that a single report is not sufficient to get a name changed.

    A lot of time, I'd agree with them on that. However, there are exceptions where a single report should suffice.

  8. #108
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    I remember that in Ultima Online around ten years ago someone named their character "Mike Hunt". His account got banned.
    For me that name was somewhat ambiguous and could be seen in an offensive or inoffensive way depending on the mindset of the onlooker.

    Unless its really offensive(kiddie fiddler related names) I don't see the need to get involved.

    The game is already a middle aged person and it is getting harder to come by a name that you want that hasn't been taken already.

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by guguzza71 View Post
    I remember that in Ultima Online around ten years ago someone named their character "Mike Hunt". His account got banned.
    For me that name was somewhat ambiguous and could be seen in an offensive or inoffensive way depending on the mindset of the onlooker.

    .

    I remember one day I was hanging out at the Brit Bank and I saw this dude in purple armour whose name was Barney. I laughed for days!
    Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"
    Continuing the never ending battle to keep Lobelia Sackville-Baggins in check

  10. #110
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    Luckily the renowned osteopath Dr Peter File doesn't play, and there are plenty of Harry Kuntz in the White Pages, including the former Mayor of Alberta. They would be banned faster than Gandalf could fill his pipe with 'green leaf', or shove a handful of mushrooms down his gregory. If 'feeling lazy' after smoking green leaf and having a 'muddled head' after eating mushrooms aren't suspicious references at best, try telling that to the cops and see how it goes It's lucky tolkien isn't still alive and playing, someone would have probably reported him too.

    If any officer is going to go behind the kin leaders back to shop people they should at least have the decency to leave the kin first as they are at odds with the leader. Doing it 'on the sly' is a dirty trick.
    Last edited by monteeburns; Oct 16 2013 at 01:44 AM.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by monteeburns View Post
    If any officer is going to go behind the kin leaders back to shop people they should at least have the decency to leave the kin first as they are at odds with the leader. Doing it 'on the sly' is a dirty trick.

    Exactly. This is the issue I have, not the name of the character.
    Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"
    Continuing the never ending battle to keep Lobelia Sackville-Baggins in check

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymphonic View Post
    Exactly. This is the issue I have, not the name of the character.

    Maturity/control problem: You (not neccisarily you, Nymphonic, but rather "you", the kin leader who wants to kick his officer) dont trust your officers to do the "right" thing, because you do not respect them enough to let them make decisions on their own, and you want to be in control. (This also goes somewhat for OP, in that he or she might have been self-secure enough to make a report without first discussing it with the kin leader. )You also think it is better to kick someone out who is an officer, and whom you have chosen to be an officer, because he reports something offensive that you did not thought to be offensive, than to accept that his feelings might be different in the matter. You've chosen someone to do a job for you, yet you do not respect him when he tries to step up. This would be a mistake on your side in that you did not pick an officer who obeys you, thereby defaulting your selection proces. Expecting blind obidience (sp?, sorry , not a native speaker) in an officer but not expecting kin members to follow the rules set out by the provider of the online enviroment that you have this kindred is... well.... I'll state this nicely: silly.




    Some of you speak from "personal experience", "self control", "not ruled over" and more of that dribble. I'll dribble some of my own dribble now, and then I'll be done dribbling.


    "Self control" and "not being ruled over", "things are inherently evil" are all nice things untill you learn that some people are simply doing bad stuff because their brains are wired that way. They do not have empathy, because their brains are crosswired due to either genetics or enviroment. Given this, the argument that we can be self-policing can be tossed out of the window at once. Society, and parts of society, have to set their own rules. Yes, this is based upon time, place and what society thinks is right and what society thinks is wrong. Numerous examples can be given of sheer barbarism that was accepted at the time but which we now consider to be morally invalid. One of the rules is "naming policy". Obeying those rules makes the server a happier place, where more people can enjoy themselves. It is one of the basic things in an online enviroment, and names that are frowned upon have been an issue since DARPA released the internet to the public. They say something about the character of a person. From personal experience of my own: If you set a foot over the line, there is a higher likelyhood that you will set the other foot next to it. Its human nature. If you move your own internal boundary, you'll probably move it again. This works in several beneficial ways (1) , and sometimes, in ways that are not necceseraily beneficial to your neighbours (2). What is a naming violation? A step over the line. Move the line? Step back? Set your next foot over it? Human nature. Tell someone else their foot is out of line? Human nature.

    All of you can state whatever you want about whether or not you think the foot should have been moved, whether or not the next foot should be next to it, whether or not it should be said to the moved of the foot that his foot moved. But you forgot the line. Its there. Its current, its real, and someone stepped over it ( see (2)). OP wonders if reporting is the right thing, because he would be going behind the back of his kin leader. Another line, placed there by himself (see (2)). Nobody says that he/she should be applauded for becoming more mature, more self -empowered and more self respecting by stepping over THAT line ( see (1) ), and doing what he thinks is right because he has that own, built in "moral judgement" and it went off.

    Choosing a name that is a violation is easy. Reporting someone is easy. Trusting your own judgement, and knowing that something is wrong and acting upon it is hard.
    Roses are red, Polar bears are white, if you meet one at night you'll get quite a fright.

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by monteeburns View Post
    If any officer is going to go behind the kin leaders back to shop people they should at least have the decency to leave the kin first as they are at odds with the leader. Doing it 'on the sly' is a dirty trick.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymphonic View Post
    Exactly. This is the issue I have, not the name of the character.
    Agreed
    Agreed
    Agreed
    Nothing to see here...

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barrynor View Post
    Maturity/control problem: You (not neccisarily you, Nymphonic, but rather "you", the kin leader who wants to kick his officer) dont trust your officers to do the "right" thing, because you do not respect them enough to let them make decisions on their own, and you want to be in control. (This also goes somewhat for OP, in that he or she might have been self-secure enough to make a report without first discussing it with the kin leader. )You also think it is better to kick someone out who is an officer, and whom you have chosen to be an officer, because he reports something offensive that you did not thought to be offensive, than to accept that his feelings might be different in the matter. You've chosen someone to do a job for you, yet you do not respect him when he tries to step up. This would be a mistake on your side in that you did not pick an officer who obeys you, thereby defaulting your selection proces. Expecting blind obidience (sp?, sorry , not a native speaker) in an officer but not expecting kin members to follow the rules set out by the provider of the online enviroment that you have this kindred is... well.... I'll state this nicely: silly.




    .
    My kicking him out would have nothing to do with him reporting him, but bringing the kin issues to the outside world. He would not have a future in my kin. What happens in a kin should stay in the kin.
    Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"
    Continuing the never ending battle to keep Lobelia Sackville-Baggins in check

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymphonic View Post
    My kicking him out would have nothing to do with him reporting him, but bringing the kin issues to the outside world. He would not have a future in my kin. What happens in a kin should stay in the kin.
    your kin is VEGAS!!! i want in!!!

    LOL

  16. #116
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by Barrynor View Post
    Expecting blind obidience (sp?, sorry , not a native speaker) in an officer but not expecting kin members to follow the rules set out by the provider of the online enviroment that you have this kindred is... well.... I'll state this nicely: silly.
    Right, because you know, expecting a subordinate to follow orders and take direction from a superior officer is, you know... 'silly'.

    Guess what happens in 'real life' when your subordinate goes against your directive and acts on their own? It's called disobeying a direct order. That's rather frowned upon in most organizations, in case you hadn't noticed.

    Colonel: "Sir, I think we have an issue with XYZ. One of our enlisted men violated some minor rule."

    General: "It's fine Tom, don't worry about it."

    Colonel: "But sir, I really think it's an issue."

    General: "I told you not to worry about it, I'll take care of it."

    Colonel: "Yes sir."

    Later...

    *On Phone* Yes, this is Colonel Busybody with the Office of National Nannery. I need to speak to the President...

    Guess how well that'd go over?

    Is it still 'silly' to you?
    Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar, tenn’ Ambar-metta!

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaynith View Post
    Right, because you know, expecting a subordinate to follow orders and take direction from a superior officer is, you know... 'silly'.

    Guess what happens in 'real life' when your subordinate goes against your directive and acts on their own? It's called disobeying a direct order. That's rather frowned upon in most organizations, in case you hadn't noticed.

    Colonel: "Sir, I think we have an issue with XYZ. One of our enlisted men violated some minor rule."

    General: "It's fine Tom, don't worry about it."

    Colonel: "But sir, I really think it's an issue."

    General: "I told you not to worry about it, I'll take care of it."

    Colonel: "Yes sir."

    Later...

    *On Phone* Yes, this is Colonel Busybody with the Office of National Nannery. I need to speak to the President...

    Guess how well that'd go over?

    Is it still 'silly' to you?
    Yup, the colonel is being "silly". And so are you...Since when is a Kindred a military institution where you swore an oath to obey to the nation's, or in this case, the kindreds highest command, upon penalty of death? I say that a Kindred is merely a construct made upon a server supplied by Turbine, governed by the rules set on the server, where anyone is free to disagree with the leader, and the leadership is based upon respect from his kinsmen, because, in case you had failed to notice, if you do not respect your kinsmen and treat them like abject soldiers that will have to obey your every command, you will run out of kinsmen eventually. Trying to compare it to a real life situation is extremy... silly.

    Then again, you could have seen my answer coming, had you given this matter more than a small amount of thought.

    Roses are red, Polar bears are white, if you meet one at night you'll get quite a fright.

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymphonic View Post
    My kicking him out would have nothing to do with him reporting him, but bringing the kin issues to the outside world. He would not have a future in my kin. What happens in a kin should stay in the kin.
    I agree, well he/she would no longer be an officer. An officer that cant talk in officer chat to other officers or send a tell to the kin leader to voice a concern he/she has, should simply not be an officer in my opinion.

    I've had a couple of disagreements with my kinleader in the officer section of our forum, one of them got quite heated between the two of us, we are mature enough to argue/discuss through our differences of opinion and come ot the other side still best of friends.

    A kinleader that is not open to constructive criticism (obviously kept within the kin and not a public kin slanging match) is a bad kin leader
    An officer that feels unable to raise concerns about someone in the kin with the kinleader and/or is afraid of upsetting the kin leader is either a bad officer or in a kin with a bad kin leader.

    Anyone from within the kin that starts a post on a public forum about a problem with his/her kin should not be in that kin at all. For an officer to do that, well they wouldn't be an officer for long in the kin I'm in, that's for sure.

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glumposneak View Post
    I agree, well he/she would no longer be an officer. An officer that cant talk in officer chat to other officers or send a tell to the kin leader to voice a concern he/she has, should simply not be an officer in my opinion.

    I've had a couple of disagreements with my kinleader in the officer section of our forum, one of them got quite heated between the two of us, we are mature enough to argue/discuss through our differences of opinion and come ot the other side still best of friends.

    A kinleader that is not open to constructive criticism (obviously kept within the kin and not a public kin slanging match) is a bad kin leader
    An officer that feels unable to raise concerns about someone in the kin with the kinleader and/or is afraid of upsetting the kin leader is either a bad officer or in a kin with a bad kin leader.

    Anyone from within the kin that starts a post on a public forum about a problem with his/her kin should not be in that kin at all. For an officer to do that, well they wouldn't be an officer for long in the kin I'm in, that's for sure.
    I'm not understanding what the issue is with the OP and how that is betraying a kinship. The OP doesn't say what the kin in question is or who the people involved are. There is no 'airing of dirty laundry' that I can see. The poster has a concern about something that he/she thinks violates the rules of the game, raised the concern with the leader, and the leader expressed an opinion on the matter. The OP appears to simply have asked respectfully for a broader perspective on how other players might handle the situation given that he/she remains concerned by the alleged rules violation. Where's the drama exactly? If the person had given lots of 'he said/she said' details or called out the kin negatively, that's a different matter. But this totally isn't that way. It sounds like the OP cares about the kin and its relationships and wants to do the right thing. I fail to see the harm in that.

    I've seen loads of posts about kinship concerns on the forums--asking for guidance on how to handle various situations, what makes a good leader or officer, how to leave a kin the right way, etc. It's sad that the forum community seems so closed off to engaging in a dialogue with someone who just wanted a bit of advice. Are we really the type of people to dictate who is allowed to ask for what kind of help?

  20. #120
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    Dec 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaynith View Post
    Right, because you know, expecting a subordinate to follow orders and take direction from a superior officer is, you know... 'silly'.

    Guess what happens in 'real life' when your subordinate goes against your directive and acts on their own? It's called disobeying a direct order. That's rather frowned upon in most organizations, in case you hadn't noticed.

    Colonel: "Sir, I think we have an issue with XYZ. One of our enlisted men violated some minor rule."

    General: "It's fine Tom, don't worry about it."

    Colonel: "But sir, I really think it's an issue."

    General: "I told you not to worry about it, I'll take care of it."

    Colonel: "Yes sir."

    Later...

    *On Phone* Yes, this is Colonel Busybody with the Office of National Nannery. I need to speak to the President...

    Guess how well that'd go over?

    Is it still 'silly' to you?
    The concepts of 'superiors', 'subordinates', and 'following orders' among adults playing a game in their leisure time? Yep, silly.

 

 
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