I play LOTRO for half-year. I have one character (not counting my craft alts) and he's level 75. I use experience disabler.
I hope that I can use similar play style in ESO/EQN. If that's not possible then my playtime in ESO will be limited I guess.
Sorry for offtopic.
Well, my personal opinion about trees is rather negative. I'm not impressed with trees. Well, at least with the trees that I've seen in other games.
With tree I get an illusion that I am limited. I can clearly see it each time I look at the tree. Without the tree I can not see it, although I understand that I'm limited either. It is just an illusion of course, but still.... I don't like it. Without the tree there's still a hope that there's a skill somewhere that I can come across one day (in case I don't read the spoilers). With tree each and every skill is clear and obvious from the first minute I'm in game. No mystery, no fun.
I have just as many buttons on games like Swtor that use skill trees, but Swtor allways leaves me feeling I have been pushed into a cookie cutter type build, the amount of buttons is less of an issue because I can customise my UI so I dont have this high rise of Buttons like I do in Lotro. Having 3 hearth (minimum)(teleport) buttons, 3 mount buttons (goat, horse, and war steed), Skirmish soldier commands, 6 (min) potion buttons plus food, scrolls, tokens and the myriad of unique non stackable buff items that Turbine keeps on forcing on me is the real pressure on my bag space and UI bar. Being able to hearth to any discovered bind spot like in Swtor would speed up game play and be a good start to quick slot bar rationalisation.
"Of course I am the only elf in the village"
Lol, I’m not really “trying to go” to any specific place. But I don’t agree that classes currently have clearly defined roles. I think they’ve gotten much less defined over time as (for example) many “non-DPS” classes have had big DPS boosts, and all classes have gotten a big bloat of skills and traits that increasingly let you trick almost any class out to be fairly-good-to-awesome at most roles. Champs can tank just about as good as Guards, LMs can DPS just about as good as Champs, etc. My point is that all the options many players understandably love have drastically reduced well-defined class roles. And that’s one of the things Turbine is explicitly trying to rectify. Whether you, I, or anyone else thinks that’s a good thing is individual opinion of course. But that’s what Turbine is trying to do, and your proposal wouldn’t do it to nearly the same extent.
I won’t take the space to respond to every other point, because what’s happening here is not so much comprehension as differing opinion: I fully understand what Turbine is changing and what you proposed instead. I just don’t agree with it. That’s fine.
But I didn’t see you respond to my main point, which is that Turbine has explicitly stated the goals they hope to achieve by making these changes. You proposed a system you would prefer vastly to what they’re doing, which is fine. But I don’t see how your proposal would accomplish their objectives better than their proposal. That’s what I’m getting at.
I'm not happy about having to re-learn and re-spec 6 classes. Not happy about our amount of skills getting stripped down. Lotro is not a high-paced game, so it can't get away with only a handful of skills. I'm worried the rotation will be repetitive and boring. But that's another matter. Hopefully I'm wrong.
Suppose that in chess all pieces were allowed to move anywhere, and taking the king didn't end the game, but rather when one side lost all of his or her pieces. In that game, the pieces would have the maximum amount of options they possibly could. Players would be free to move the pieces however they wished. But the game would be utterly boring and completely predictable given two players with basic intelligence. And while players could decide the order in which to take the pieces of their opponents, they wouldn't really be making any real choices of any consequence.
In the actual game of chess, however, each piece is restricted to move only in a certain manner. And it is the taking of one particular piece that ends the game. Even though the pieces have less options in how they can move, players are required to make far more complex choices. While there are moves that are clearly bad choices to most experienced players, there is no set of moves that is the obvious set of moves that everyone does in order to win. Thus, players have more real choices to make.
Limiting options creates choice because it forces you to pick one option over another. You have to decide to take one or the other; you can't have everything. If you can have everything, then there's no need to make any real choices.
Why does LOTRO even have classes? Why not just give everyone all skills and let them decide what they want to use? Wouldn't that be the ideal game, with everyone free to do whatever they wanted?
The problem with this is that things would go in one of two ways:
1. Some skills would stand out as being the best.
Guess which skills people are going to pick? Even though people technically had the option to pick other skills, they wouldn't be realistic choices. Think back to the chess game where the pieces could move anywhere. The first player to move technically has the option not to take a piece. But it's not a viable choice for real gameplay. In a game with an optimum build, the only people who aren't going to make that build are people who want to be different for difference's sake. Everyone else would, for all intents and purposes, be forced into making that build.
2. No skill stands out as being the best.
At first this seems great. We have a perfectly balanced system where people can pick the skills they prefer. The problem reveals itself, however, when we look at all why all the skills seem equal; it's because they are. If people have unrestricted access to any skill, and using one skill has no benefit over using another, then all skills are effectively the same skill with just different names, lore, and animations.
Real choices are created when one is forced to choose between two things that are desirable. Deciding between something you want and something you don't care about is not really a choice. You are obviously always going to go with what you want. But when you are forced to give up something substantial in order to get something else, that's when you have to make a real, thoughtful decision.
Classes do this at character creation, and skill trees are nothing more than sub-classes that further define your class as you level. Yes, you might need to get skills you care less about for skills you want more. But classes are the same way. With classes, you are "forced" to get all the skills of each class at the expense of not being able to access the skills of other classes. Sure, you can technically skip training the skills you don't want, but that just saves you a little coin.
The skill trees could have been implemented such that rather than lower tier skills unlocking higher tier ones, instead certain lower tier skills gave discounts for certain higher tier ones. And then the skill points for the higher tier skills could have been increased accordingly. In the end, you would end up spending the same amount of skill points and get the same higher tier abilities, but simply just wouldn't have the lower tier skills that you didn't care about as an option.
But that's just a menu item issue. Just hide the abilities you don't use, and it's not really any different than not having them. Plus, with the system as it's been implemented, if you did find a use for the ability, you would have the option to easily add it to your rotation.
I'm looking forward to the skill trees because by forcing people to make greater sacrifices, the devs are now freer to give people greater rewards. We can now have more skills that stand out as being the best at a particular task because less people will be able to get each one. People will have to make tougher choices in deciding which tasks they prefer to do, but they will also be able to do those tasks far more effectively.
Limiting options just means that you have FEWER choices, in your example, two. What if you want to choose somewhere in between, like a lot of us have been doing since the games inception. You know.. a hybrid class. Like say.. anything not of the holy trinity. (The original vision of the Gaurd/Mini/Champ or Hunter.)
Last edited by Darlgon; Nov 04 2013 at 02:50 AM.
I do think classless systems are better, but MMOs are full of people who want to start with templates or who aren't going to build for tanking/healing/support if it makes their solo lives harder.
And yes, Jay has the option to drive any of his many cars. But the choices he is making are purely aesthetical. All the cars get him from point A to point B. They just have a different look and feel.
This goes back to possibility #2 of giving everything to everyone: No skill stands out as being the best. If everyone can have all skills and the only difference is what people "feel like doing", then all skills are effectively the same with just different names, lore, and animations. Skill choices become purely asethetical, and have no real gameplay meaning.
Jay buys his cars for aesthetics, so he doesn't need any meaning beyond, "it looks and/or drives cool". But the choices in LOTRO have to go beyond aethestics. Otherwise, it's not a game; it's an art project. And even Jay, when he races, has his options limited. He can't race any car he wants however he wants. There are limitations to how the cars can be built. It is these limitations that make the race a game.
With this type of system, it is more like you are unlocking content rather than building a character. All characters ultimately end up in the same final state; they just unlock things in a different order.
On the other hand, if players will end up with unique builds, then there must be some tradeoffs happening at some point. These tradeoffs are their skill trees. And really, that's all classes are. They are basic skill trees.
Trait trees are cosmetic. Implementation is the important thing. Trait trees don't magically confer special powers such as ' respec on the fly' or 'choices with consequences'. Those sort of things are results of how any character development system is implemented not inherent to any particular system or indeed presentation of that system. After all, if you chose to, you could make trait trees from the existing system with very little change. None in fact unless you chose to make changes. One thing I'd be very wary of is claiming that trait trees give more choice. Depending on implementation, they actually give a lot less than the current system. So if you implement trait trees in a way where everything is hyperoptimised and then balance based on that hyperoptimisation (or the 'you get less skills but the ones you get go 'boom' better approach), you're not going to find many guards running around trying to kill stuff in a tank build. Or a mini doing it in a heal build. So you actually end up with identikit builds in Lotro classes, because not all classes have multiple options in how to build for optimal dps in what is increasingly a solo environment. Definitely judge on the implementation though.
In any case, I'm still more amused by claims around skill bloat being a big thing when Massively reckons that Big Battles are all about you being one of three sub-classes and gaining new abilities from them. Not sure how that works. Presumably the bloat was a transient sickness and we needed more skills when that was realised. Or something.
Last edited by Atheling; Nov 04 2013 at 08:19 AM.
Rift - Each class has access to 7 or more (with the expansion) souls that in themselves are mini classes. Can be mixed and matched however you want.
Eve Online - Train up with whatever skills you fancy and fly what you can afford to lose.
Three current MMOs that dispense with fixed classes. It's about time MMOs started ditching the WoW legacy.
<A sig goes here>
For those wondering how the Trait Trees work for unlocking each Tier here is the jist of it.
Tier 1 is always unlocked for everyone.
Tier 2 requires 5 traits to be earned in Tier 1 of that line Blue/Red/Yellow. So T1 Blue only unlocks T2 Yellow.
Tier 3 requires an additional 5 traits total of 10 traits to be earned in Tiers 1 or 2.
Tier 4 requires an additional 5 traits total of 15 traits to be earned in Tiers 1, 2 or 3.
Tier 5 requires another 5 traits equipped a total of 20.
Tier 6 requires another 5 traits equipped a total of 25.
Tier 7 requires another 5 traits equipped a total of 30. This is the Capstone trait for each line.
If you select Blue as your main spec then spending points on traits in Blue costs you 1 class/trait point. Spending points on Red or Yellow lines will cost you 2 points per trait. So if you want to reach Tier 2 in your off spec lines you have to spend 10 points to obtain your 5 traits.
Set Bonuses are for the main spec only but spending on traits in any line will unlock them.
Tier 1 Set Bonus obtained by spending points on 5 traits.
Tier 2 Set Bonus obtained by spending points on another 5 traits so a total of 10 traits.
Tier 3 Set Bonus obtained by spending points on another 5 traits so a total of 15 traits.
Tier 4 Set Bonus obtained by spending points on another 5 traits so a total of 20 traits.
Tier 5 Set Bonus obtained by spending points on another 5 traits so a total of 25 traits.
Tier 6 Set Bonus obtained by spending points on another 5 traits so a total of 30 traits.
Tier 7 Set Bonus obtained by spending points on another 5 traits so a total of 35 traits.
I did not level further, so I am not too sure how many points you end up with at max- but even if you get a point a level, you still will only have 15 effective points left.
This gives you enough points to buff a couple existing skills (which you have to do in order to get to the actual skills), and unlock and max a couple other low hanging skills in the other tree lines.
[B][COLOR=#6495ed]"You cannot pass," he said. "I am a[/COLOR] [COLOR=#00bfff]Servant of the Secret Fire[/COLOR][COLOR=#6495ed], wielder of the flame of Anor. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udûn. You cannot pass."[U][I]The Fellowship of the Ring II 5: "The Bridge of Khazad-dûm"[/I][/U][/COLOR][/B] [COLOR=#0000ff][/COLOR][COLOR=#5f1fff][B]Athene~Vilya~85 LM[/B][/COLOR] [URL="http://www.sotsfire.com/"][B][COLOR=#7b68ee]SOTSFire.com [/COLOR][/B][/URL]
You can get to your tree cap with 35 points, but you can't fill all the skills in. You will have to leave some things out in order to have the points left over. It's about 50 points to fully fill in a tree. You may also find (minstrel does) that the first level of the alternate trees have nothing you want based on your role at the time. Minstrel red line can choose one anthem or several healing/ outgoing healing crit modifier skills that are worthless. In the second level I can get tactical mastery but that would be much easier to get through jewelry than the tree. The points are mostly wasted.
I'd explain it to you, but I'm all out of Puppets and Crayons.
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Moochy, 105 Minstrel R10
Guess what? I'm going to be asking these same questions now where I never did before in this game. This game will now turn more cookie cutter than it ever was before they did this atrocity. If my guard can't get back some semblance of what it once was I won't be long for this game. They already have stopped me from paying real cash for it! Imagine how many more people they(turbine) are alienating from this game?
Mean what you say and say what you mean! If you don't there are always consequences!
Gedachtnis - 65 Guardian / Cianero - 65 Lore Master
Leader Irony and Spite Landroval
"Even though I've been a stranger, Full of Irony and Spite, Holding little but contempt for all things beautiful and bright, Something shines around you and it seems to my delight, To give me just a little sweetness, Just a little light."
Sapience, HoarseDev, or any Blue Name really.
The Quickbar memory issue has been brought up several times and I haven't seen any official response, perhaps I've missed something.
This issue requires a 100 MC purchase on each and every character that does not use 1 Quickslot set to achieve basic expected functionality. It doesn't matter if they are F2P, Preimium, or VIP. In order to use the second Quickbar set, to place our general skills in the configuration we want for each spec we must not only purchase a Spec Tab but then leave it unused so that we can "despec" in order to get the memory to hold.
I don't mind that upgrades happen in the store at all. If I want to save a third spec and need to buy a new tab to do that, fine I have no problem with that. But what is happening now is we are being given a major system that is not working properly with the only fix being a store purchase and I find that simply unacceptable. On top of the store purchase we need to respec twice just in order to load a new spec, I haven't watched to see if that costs in game gold and if so how much.
The issue doesn't exist for players that keep all their General Skills in the same spot for every spec and stay on the same quickbar set, so I do realize this isn't an issue for everybody, but it is an issue for some.
I would really like to know if there is a fix or at the very least a workaround that will be in at launch, or if this is actually what is considered basic functionality and no change is expected. With Beta ending any hope of testing the fix or workaround has ended.
It's all to clear we are on our own.[/CENTER]
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