Dev Diary: Trait Trees in Helm's Deep

[Stepbrother]

In all of the discussions on these trait trees, I don't see anyone mentioning what they're really all about: one more thing to mindlessly grind to keep us on the treadmill and likely spend TPs until the next endlessly grindy idea they come up with.

We stared with:

- Grind levels.
- Grind traits.
- Grind deeds.
- Grind armour and jewelry.
- Grind crafting deeds/levels.
- Grind rank (for those interested in pvp).
- Grind reputation.

Since then they've added:

- Grind LIs (with too many sub-grinds to list).
- Grind skirmishes.
- Grind a Warsteed.
- Grind building a town.

Now they're adding:

- Grind trait trees.
- ???? Whatever's next.

Of course all of these grinds have shortcuts if you want to pay for them in the store and most of the past grinds are rendered mostly useless whenever the level cap is raised. My plan is to check out the new system on one character when HD comes out and if it looks too boring, or if I can't earn the trait lines just by leveling, I may just finally be able to kick what has become nothing more than a bad habit at this point.

[Skippa]

I wonder how long before we start getting oversized weapons, undersized female clothing, and pink ponies. We will be complete then.

[LethalLethality]

In all of the discussions on these trait trees, I don't see anyone mentioning what they're really all about: one more thing to mindlessly grind to keep us on the treadmill and likely spend TPs until the next endlessly grindy idea they come up with.

We stared with:

- Grind levels.
- Grind traits.
- Grind deeds.
- Grind armour and jewelry.
- Grind crafting deeds/levels.
- Grind rank (for those interested in pvp).
- Grind reputation.

Since then they've added:

- Grind LIs (with too many sub-grinds to list).
- Grind skirmishes.
- Grind a Warsteed.
- Grind building a town.

Now they're adding:

- Grind trait trees.
- ???? Whatever's next.

Of course all of these grinds have shortcuts if you want to pay for them in the store and most of the past grinds are rendered mostly useless whenever the level cap is raised. My plan is to check out the new system on one character when HD comes out and if it looks too boring, or if I can't earn the trait lines just by leveling, I may just finally be able to kick what has become nothing more than a bad habit at this point.

Dunno what you're talking about but since when do we have to grind levels or a Warsteed? Since when do you have to grind for good armor (Not the best, obviously)? You do realize that some things in MMO have to be ground out, otherwise, whats the point of having it. Why even bother with wanting to craft if you can do it all easy as can be. I like to earn my crafting tiers, personally.

[StrideColossus]

Dunno what you're talking about but since when do we have to grind levels or a Warsteed? Since when do you have to grind for good armor (Not the best, obviously)? You do realize that some things in MMO have to be ground out, otherwise, whats the point of having it. Why even bother with wanting to craft if you can do it all easy as can be. I like to earn my crafting tiers, personally.

Agreed *

Never ceases to amaze me that people say "I hate the grind" without offering an alternative, and the reason is because (whether you like it or not) there is no alternative. The developers cannot simply go on adding more and more content, it's an MMO, there has to be time-sinks of some sort to keep people occupied once they consume all the content. If you don't like the grind don't do it.

* Although I have some sympathy with the LI grind, that really is dull

[soggykitten]

The Developer Diary mentions:

'We also had really just been making lots and lots of skills. Quick bars for each class were chock full of different skills, brimming up to 4-plus quick bars in some cases. Many of those skills were redundant, unexciting and worst of all, not really getting used. Something had to give. Things were just unsustainable.'

Well I don't agree entirely that skills are not really getting used, you never know when you might use a skill and always try out a new one for certain. Some skills work better against different kinds of enemy. The trait trees should allow just as much flexibility, more in fact and present the current skill sets for each class with a more precise selection approach. A visually clearer tree layout should make it easier to see what changes affect alternative skills and so hint at what is going on 'under-the-hood' of your character. More importantly it should be easier for developers to tweak skills and design new ones when needed in a more flexible framework. Icons cluttering the game screen have always been an irritation when the landscapes and battles at times are crying out to be seen and enjoyed by the player, an important part of keeping Tolkein's immersive world rich and entertaining.

The point of the the redesign let's hope will allow designers, artists, animators and programmers to concentrate less on maintaining skills that work well for characters and provide a simpler approach to add new ones, make balancing changes if necessary. More importantly create a skill system that allows the user to customise the skills they have, the way they want, and most importantly free the developers to concentrate on the content, the visuals, the story, more creative animation, the design of better more involving quests and mechanics that make jaw-dropping, dramatic instances that use the skills we already have. More great instances you want to talk about and show off on youtube to your friends can only be a good thing. Less Youtube videos of buttons all over our screens would be a good thing too.

[Thorwyn99]

Agreed *

Never ceases to amaze me that people say "I hate the grind" without offering an alternative, and the reason is because (whether you like it or not) there is no alternative. The developers cannot simply go on adding more and more content, it's an MMO, there has to be time-sinks of some sort to keep people occupied once they consume all the content. If you don't like the grind don't do it.

* Although I have some sympathy with the LI grind, that really is dull

What's kinda weird is that most of the grinds have been made easier. Hell even ranking up in pvp is alot easier.

Only 2 bad grinds i can think of right now is Gold items(Seriously i simply wouldn't bother) and LI's.

[Zvim666]

Agreed *

Never ceases to amaze me that people say "I hate the grind" without offering an alternative, and the reason is because (whether you like it or not) there is no alternative. The developers cannot simply go on adding more and more content, it's an MMO, there has to be time-sinks of some sort to keep people occupied once they consume all the content. If you don't like the grind don't do it.

* Although I have some sympathy with the LI grind, that really is dull

Every game is a grind because every game is built around repeating the same fairly limited actions over and over repeatedly. However, early video games even though were ultra repetitive and grindy, had a skill element to them, ie they usually got faster so it became more of a hand-to-eye co-ordination type of test.

I think the problem with MMOs and more specifically modern MMOs is they have taken the skill element out of the game play. This is typically true for linear themepark MMOs where you are more or less reading or living a fairly limited linear story. I think if you spend the vast majority of the time killing stuff that isn't really a challenge to you then you do not have the sense of accomplishment and then you notice the grind.

I think from the outside looking in it doesn't seem that the developers have sat down and said the average player plays X hours per day, Y hours per week, Z hours per month so what kind of content are we going to bring into the game that is going to generate that much 'entertainment' and how interactive, challenging and enjoyable is the activity.

They might have, but the content they generate doesn't seem to lean towards it from what i have seen.

I really want LOTRO to do really well, so I do hope people like the HD content. I am not against MMOs which do not focus on raiding, however, I still think it needs to have the content focused on fun things to fill the MMO level of time sinks. Grinds are often popular because of the time investment, especially if the time to implement to time required to complete ratio is very good. However, if it doesn't involve a challenge or provide significant reward for effort or is entertaining then you notice the grind and that makes you vulnerable to burning out on grinds.

They probably need to focus towards less linear content and more interactive content which can be repeated and scales. Skirmishing was something that could have been very interesting, very challenging and scales with multiple tiers between expansions but the way it was implemented didn't quite hit the mark, I think the skirmishes could have been more random dungeon crawls, I think always finding the same mobs in the same places or the exact same scripts firing off every time you run can trigger the grinding feeling where layouts you are not familiar with and encounters you haven't memorised can give a more dynamic feel.

I'd like to see more sandbox elements and more content introduced which isn't linear, content that ties people closer to player built communities, at present the game is more an interesting interactive story than it is a great game to play. I enjoy many aspects of it but I think a lot of new players in particular are overwhelmed by the sheer amount of grind there is to catch up and I think the player turnover in some open kinships I have been part of has been brutal. I think the IP brings a lot of players in but the game drives a lot of players out as well.

[cdq1958]

What's kinda weird is that most of the grinds have been made easier. Hell even ranking up in pvp is alot easier.

Only 2 bad grinds i can think of right now is Gold items(Seriously i simply wouldn't bother) and LI's.

Agreed. A grind is what you make of it. Me, I rotate alts. Sure the grind is still there, but by spreading it out and taking it in small bits makes it more fun. LIs, I don't worry about them. Same thing for the Horse Lords recipes. I'll take them when (if) I get them.

I do have a suggestion for the LI system. Make LIs be fully socketed containers and allow 'reverse engineering' to make slightly better sockets from crafting.

[MightyKOko]

It sounds very good on paper, but I wonder if it will be so great at the end.
Having 3 trees for each class may end up with your beloved skills split on 3 and your useless skills still on your bar...
Only time will show.

[Stepbrother]

What's kinda weird is that most of the grinds have been made easier. Hell even ranking up in pvp is alot easier.

Are you serious? You never even used to have LIs and somehow you think it's less grindy having them? Weird. PvMP is the same story: there was no audacity system and now there is one and that's less of a grind. Gotcha.

[Stepbrother]

Agreed *

Never ceases to amaze me that people say "I hate the grind" without offering an alternative, and the reason is because (whether you like it or not) there is no alternative. The developers cannot simply go on adding more and more content, it's an MMO, there has to be time-sinks of some sort to keep people occupied once they consume all the content. If you don't like the grind don't do it.

* Although I have some sympathy with the LI grind, that really is dull

The answer to your question is I really only play for the PvMP. I have no interest in having to start over and rebuild my freeps and creeps every year. If you want to get into ceaseless amazement though, I find it pretty amazing people waste time on the pve in this boring game (which as stated, is only a grind; that's all it's become). When the game first came out, the pve was mildly entertaining, but never the grindy stuff like virtue deeds. Then they added the LI silliness and then worst of all, the audacity system in the 'moors. Now it appears I'll have to rebuild one more mechanic of my freeps which may or may not be a big deal, I have no way of knowing (but I've got some strong suspicions based on how Turbine runs the game these days). I'm glad it's good for you though.

[Darlgon]

The answer to your question is I really only play for the PvMP.

You just lost any credibility with that statement. ROLF... only for PvMP.... You must be playing a freep who loves to solo faceroll five creeps at a time.

As far as grind goes.. Umm killing 350 grey mobs for one point of Zeal in a zone I never really cared to spend time in.. obviously if you think the grind is better now, someones forgotten something. Some time ago, like over a year ago, Turbine promised to reduce that.. I held my breath, but after I turned blue and they called the ambulance, I gave up.

[Stepbrother]

You just lost any credibility with that statement.

Why, exactly?

ROLF... only for PvMP.... You must be playing a freep who loves to solo faceroll five creeps at a time.

That's quite a conclusion to jump to with no information at all. My highest ranked characters are creeps FYI. My freeps are mediocre specifically because I have no interest in the above noted grind. I enter the 'moors with the bare minimum required gear. I like having characters on both sides so I can flip to whatever side I choose to play on. You'll make assumptions about that too but that's what a fool does I guess. Not that any of this has any bearing whatsoever on my original point: the game is a laughable grind now that will likely get worse with the new changes and the main reason is so people will instead buy store stuff because Turbine has become a corporate slave company. It started the very day Sapience asked 'What else would you buy with skirmish marks" (I think he said list 3 things). I knew right there and then the store was coming and everything was going to be about money grubbing from that point forward.

[Thorandril]

The answer to your question is I really only play for the PvMP..

commendations should be used as a universal currency like skirmish marks, for LI barter stuff like IEXP and relics. The game gives enough of a choice to players in whether they want to raid, group or solo their way through. No reason it can't continue to do so for the PvP crowd specifically. I suppose that's a topic for a separate thread though.

[bohbashum]

commendations should be used as a universal currency like skirmish marks, for LI barter stuff like IEXP and relics. The game gives enough of a choice to players in whether they want to raid, group or solo their way through. No reason it can't continue to do so for the PvP crowd specifically. I suppose that's a topic for a separate thread though.

PvE and PvP need to be split up as much as possible for 2 huge reasons.

1) Balance - turbine can't seem to be botherd to balance moors every single PvE update, and it seems stupid that they should. they need to make sure PvP gear and stats stay as PvP should be and not changed as PvE updates come in. how can they expect to ever balance the sides as freeps always advance over time in expansions? just dooming every expansions to "creeps good for a few months, then freeps, then freeps dominate" is stupid.

2) Progression - how much would it suck to know some freep who grinds PvE can get the exact same items you got by playing in moors for years? your basically kicking any current PvMP players in the nuts and will force many to leave. PvMP already dead at times, we don't need to alienate our own players anymore than we already do. let them keep there rewards and items, they deserved them. but thats not the same as saying "they should win fights cos they play longer". no, there is a seriously huge amount of possibilities between those 2 extremes and lotro needs to find a balance to make both parties happy.

not to mention how much you annoy PvE players by gating the best items in PvP (so many mad captains who fight club for the items in anger)... seriously, just keep them apart.

[Ratharim]

- Grind levels.

There are many things in the game that may require grinding, but levels? If you play from the beginning to Rohan there is enough XP collected even from the casual roaming and questing in the landscape to bring you to level 200. If you get yourself engaged into skrimishes and instances you could level to 300+ with ease. In fact I have to use XP disabler to not overlevel the content and have fun from more or less on-level questing in Moria, Mirkwood and Isengard areas.
So please, stop whinning about the things which are not a problem.

[Thorandril]

PvE and PvP need to be split up as much as possible for 2 huge reasons.

1) Balance - turbine can't seem to be botherd to balance moors every single PvE update, and it seems stupid that they should. they need to make sure PvP gear and stats stay as PvP should be and not changed as PvE updates come in. how can they expect to ever balance the sides as freeps always advance over time in expansions? just dooming every expansions to "creeps good for a few months, then freeps, then freeps dominate" is stupid.

2) Progression - how much would it suck to know some freep who grinds PvE can get the exact same items you got by playing in moors for years? your basically kicking any current PvMP players in the nuts and will force many to leave. PvMP already dead at times, we don't need to alienate our own players anymore than we already do. let them keep there rewards and items, they deserved them. but thats not the same as saying "they should win fights cos they play longer". no, there is a seriously huge amount of possibilities between those 2 extremes and lotro needs to find a balance to make both parties happy.

not to mention how much you annoy PvE players by gating the best items in PvP (so many mad captains who fight club for the items in anger)... seriously, just keep them apart.

Neither of those reasons are even mildly related to my point, how would them making commendations a universal currency affect PvP balance at all? It wouldn't. If anything it would populate the 'moors sooner after the raise of every level cap, as people would be working on their LI's within the 'moors.

And your point about progression is equally nil, considering the mutual exclusivity of items goes both ways. I seriously hope noone has the gall to tell R13 freeps they haven't put in enough time/effort to get a first age. And it implies that freeps could be (rightfully) upset that the best in-slot items be gated behind PvE which is not something they're interested in for whatever reason.

Using commendations as a global currency can fix alot more issues than it would create.

[Stepbrother]

There are many things in the game that may require grinding, but levels? If you play from the beginning to Rohan there is enough XP collected even from the casual roaming and questing in the landscape to bring you to level 200. If you get yourself engaged into skrimishes and instances you could level to 300+ with ease. In fact I have to use XP disabler to not overlevel the content and have fun from more or less on-level questing in Moria, Mirkwood and Isengard areas.
So please, stop whinning about the things which are not a problem.

It was just a list. Leaving out leveling (as necessary as it is) would have been silly. No one is "whinning", whatever that may be.

[leyna012]

dont set any high expectations for HD, 9 out of the 10 times you will be dissapointed, wait till the release.
concerning skill trees...I got mixed feelings about it, I never thought about it being restrictive because I was used to playing games like WoW, when I played LOTRO I started to think different about it and I really liked the idea of building up your character how you want, but to be honest, I like changes (drastic or not), especially if it has been like this for years.

so..until I have seen it with my own eyes, Ill just think about how it might be, its probably different then other games, I mean, LOTRO has to keep its own unique style.

[Darlgon]

so..until I have seen it with my own eyes, Ill just think about how it might be, its probably different then other games, I mean, LOTRO has to keep its own unique style.

They keep saying the new trait trees will work like the ones for mounted combat. Well.. those are pretty much identical rip-offs of the ones in SWTOR, which I despised. (Hard to navigate and blocking skills you want behind skills you have no interest in ever using.) Not unique. But, as you say.. will see what comes in just over a month. Be nice if we had a REAL dev diary SHOWING what they will look like for EACH CLASS, unlike this misnamed diary explaining why they did a skill consolidation at the top.

[DrnknElf]

I've been trying to decide if I was going to respond with my thoughts regarding trait trees and have finally done so. I've had some discussion with people ingame regarding these changes and what follows are my thoughts.

I guess I might be in the minority but I actually like the current trait setup. No, it's not the most fun thing to have to go see a bard every time I want to retrait but I don't consider it a big deal. The main thing I like about the current setup is something which the trait tree setup is going to do away with. The current trait setup primarily focuses on enhancing your skills and/or the trait line(s) of the traits you choose. Outside of legendary traits there are few, if any, skills which are gated by specific traits but the traits and trait bonuses act as an enhancement to some of your skills and abilities depending on how you trait. No matter how you look at it the new trait trees remove that. The trait trees are built around limiting your access to your skills.

Before I continue I do need to make a point. I definitely agree that some classes are somewhat overpowered in their abilities even when they aren't specifically traited for something. One example would be captain healing. I do personally feel my captain can heal too much when traited redline for dps. I usually don't have too much trouble mainhealing a lot of the 6 mans with that setup although some of that has to do with specific gear options I've chosen. Another more specific example would be the lore master with water lore. Water lore in its current incarnation is simply too powerful as the base skill. The number of healing pulses, the number of times it can stack, the incoming healing bonus and the magnitude of the pulses are too much. There are quite a few other skills and abilities I could go into but I think the two examples I used here are sufficient for my purposes.

With those examples pointed out I would like to present my thoughts on how the trait trees should have been setup. Simply put the trait trees should have followed in the footsteps of the old trait system as a way to enhance your character instead of a way to limit your character. All the skills they decided the classes should still keep should be usable just as they are now (with the exception of the legendary skills which should still be limited the same way they are now). The difference would be that in the case of a number of skills the base effectiveness of the skills would be lower than they currently are. This would allow access to the full range of skills like now but at a reduced effectiveness unless you put points towards building the skills back up. I'll use water lore as an example. The base skill under the trait trees may no longer stack or have the incoming healing buff attached. Points into the healing line trait tree would probably allow for the skill to regain its stacking effect as well as the incoming healing buff. Maybe instead of removing the stacking ability and the incoming healing buff the magnitude of the heal or the number of pulses would be effected. There are quite a few possibilities.

Again, I could come up with many examples of possible changes but I don't see any reason to do so. The point I've tried to make is to show that the trait tree system could have been used as a positive enhancer to class skills and abilities without artificially limiting skill numbers like the current trait setup while still allowing a better balance of overall class strengths and weaknesses. Instead we're going to get a trait tree setup which is based on forcing classes to give up skills and abilities they currently have. That is my primary problem with the trait trees they are bringing to the game.

[Traur]

Am I the only one who feels this revamp has a lot of the relic stench of RoI to it? They removed 3 relic tiers to limit the grind (that was the official explanation) and those 3 tiers were promptly put back in with a few expansions. This revamp feels like it is being put in because rather than trying to balance classes and enhance class flavour they ran out of ideas or maybe just couldn't be bothered so now we lose a ton of skills that they can slowly give us back again without having to do much actual work.

[00CloughRN]

I have a question about getting the extra trait setup slots. Do you buy them per character or across your account? Also will there be a bundle option to buy all slots for all characters?

[Egilric]

Just watched the new Dev Diary video.

I really wish Turbine would stop trying to deceive us.

The Dev Diary tells us that that "wanted to give players more choice" about class trait builds.

I fail to see how moving from a totally free-form trait system that allows players to choose ONLY the traits they want to a system where a trait you want may be gated behind 4 or 5 other traits that you don't want is even remotely giving us "more choice" - in fact it quite clearly giving us LESS CHOICE.

Right now on all of my characters I have a free-form trait choice that allows me to play EXACTLY how I want to play in 99% of all circumstances.

From the Dev Diary it seems this is now not possible, even to the ludicrous point of needing to swap between trait-builds in a 10 minute skirmish.

This is more choice or more flexibility - it is LESS.

It is deliberately corralling players to need to swap trait-builds - that's simply not choice.

Now, just think about any of your current builds, they depend heavily on gear, LI Legacies etc. Are we now going to need to carry around two sets of gear, and LIs just so when we are FORCED to re-trait we can still be reasonably effective?

What a very clever way of forcing players to buy more bag/bank space and more LI slots.


Oh, but look, all is forgiven, we have spangly new animations.

Sorry Turbine, you really need to learn that "fluff" is no substitute for genuine new content.

All The Best

[Idiotvillage]

Are trait sets able to be bound to hot keys? If not I suggest they should be