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  1. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Belnavar View Post
    I definitely can see the need for the skill and class revamps. There are so many factors involved:

    1. Lack of advancement (and the feeling of advancement) - this has been the case with traits since Mirkwood, and many skill upgrades have proved boring. In fact, when Mirkwood launched we only got one skill upgrade initially, which was generally very bland, with a second one for level 64 in a later update. It even got to the stage where RoR only gave us three skills/upgrades, not the usual 5, making levelling even less exciting, since there were larger gaps between a level reward.

    2. Class homogenisation - with the need for new skills and upgraded skills with every level cap rise, many classes began to gain similar skills to other classes, and instead of one or two Jack of All Trades classes, all of them effectively adopted this factor. The appearance of morale bubbles for many classes is a good example of this.

    3. Skill boat - Anyone who doesn't see this must not be playing the same game. Not only have we received new skills and upgraded skills with every level cap rise, we often received numerous new skills as part of the basic revamps of classes with expansions or updates, not tied to the new levels. A big one is Rise of Isengard, for example. Warden may be the only class where skill bloat is not so apparent, though there are certainly a ton of gambits to remember, many of which are slightly more or less powerful versions of each other.

    4. Bland or useless skills - Many of our skills are unexciting, or, in many cases, almost useless. For example, Fighting Withdrawal for Captain. Since Captain deals so little threat compared to other damage dealers and healers, this skill (which is technically an upgrade of an older, even less useful skill) is almost never used by what I assume is most Captains. Sure, it might be clicked once in 1,000 battles, in that very rare and unique situation, but otherwise it sits there taking up space, and when I level up to discover I get something so essentially useless it is quite a let down. Many classes have similar skills. In fact, some times there is almost no difference between a skill, and some only take on a greater importance when their upgraded version provides an additional functionality. Indeed, sometimes we are only using skills because our more interesting/powerful ones are on cooldown.

    5. Lack of differentiation between trait lines/builds - While Turbine has attempted to address this over the years, with more or less success, each line for each class provides only a slightly different spin on things. If I trait HoH instead of LtC, so little changes that I might as well be playing the same build. This is not exciting or engaging, and it leads to stagnation with builds, where many of us stick with the same build as soon we hit Moria and unlock all of our slots. Why trait in the CC line if you can CC almost as good in the DPS line? There was one LM in my kin who refused to trait any other way, because there wasn't enough motivation to do so. Sure, part of this is instance/raid design, but when the pro of good DPS comes with very little con, why would anyone try out the other lines? All three lines need to be viable, fun, and unique, while keeping the core gameplay of the class intact.

    6. The new player experience - it is easy for many of us to ignore this, especially if we've been playing for years. If we came to the game with Shadows of Angmar, we had far fewer skills to adjust to, but imagine a new player coming to the game now. It is a confusing mish-mash of skills, traits, and blurred roles. Add to this the problem of new players having to grind trait deeds to unlock traits, and we have a big problem. I see so many new players and alts with empty slots, and I ask them why they are empty, and they simply don't have anything yet to fill them. Sometimes they fill them with the only trait they get, regardless of how useless it is to their levelling experience. I have done this with many alts myself. With the new trees we will gain points from levelling, as well as those deeds, so we won't have empty slots if we are a bit slow on the deed count. Likewise, instead of getting traits we will never use (how dull it must be for a solo player to get a group-based trait, for example), or skills or bonuses that we don't want right now, we will have the freedom to pick skills and traits from the tree we want. Do you want to level quickly? Ignore all those useless healing and tanking traits, and focus on DPS. Finding an area a bit tough? Invest in survivability/tanking traits. Have you spent the first 40 levels focusing on soloing, but now want to try an instance? Try and build a group-friendly support build.

    7. Balancing difficulty and future-proofing - This is not something we think much of as players, but the class system needs to not become so unweildy that it cannot properly be balanced or expanded in the future. Sure, upgraded skills was working for a time, although some would argue it was working poorly, but we've now come to the situation where we have upgrades of upgrades. Where does this end, and when does it get to a situation where there is simply no more room for upgrades, with all classes essentially doing the same thing with different animations? With several more expansions to go in the lifetime of this game, this is a situation that badly needed to be addressed, one way or another. Not only does it make it easier to keep the classes in check - it makes it easier to make new classes, as one dev comment (in a twitter chat: https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...Team-July-2013)) mentioned. Imagine trying to create a new class now, with all the skills, traits, skill upgrades, and so forth required. Imagine how much easier it is with a streamlined system.

    The reality is that the game has changed a lot since it launched. The classes we play now are very different to those we played a few expansions ago, and certainly very different to Shadows of Angmar days. Even the traits and trait system we have are very different, with the system changing big time with Moria, and many traits and trait bonuses changing several times since then. An MMO is always a work in progress, and sometimes this necessitates big changes. Many of the things we enjoy about the game today would not be here were it not for the big changes of the past.

    -Bel
    1. This is true, but is a result of some extremely lazy game design and some frankly lacklustre expansions. New expansions should expand the entire game, not just the map area. One way to handle this would have been to introduce tier 2 class traits that are unlocked when the basic class traits are completed.

    2. There is really not a lot of class homogenization, content has just gotten too easy. It is not because Minstrels are suddenly viable tanks that it is possible to do a level 85 Sambrog challenge with nothing but hunters and a mini. If more instances were like Lost Temple T2 this would not be an issue. This is a result of pandering to casual players and a general reduction of the slope of the skill curve.

    3. This I agree with, I actually like it when instead of getting another skill you just get upgraded versions of old skills (such as is the case with Rohan).

    4. There will always be bland or useless skills. Champions get a slow, in PvE it is utterly useless and I doubt any F2P players have it slotted on their champs, however for moors it is a main stay for champions. Champions get a bow skill, it does very little damage, has a longish CD, however there are some situations when using ranged attacks are actually useful such as Fornost water. The only way we can have good skills, is if we have bad skills to compare them to.

    5. This is a problem with the current trait system not giving significant enough bonuses and modifying skills enough. Current traits are more often than not like a cherry, sure it makes a sundae more appealing to look at it and it may enhance the flavour a bit, but a sundae without a cherry on top is still pretty delicious. Traiting should be the difference between a fudge sundae and smoked salmon, sure they are both delicious but definitely not interchangeable

    6. How does new trait trees do anything to make this better? they still have to grind traits just the same. They get a few fewer skills but many more traits so it doesn't reduce complexity. In fact most classes I have noticed tend to get their primary role skills early, such as dps for champions and hunters, healing for minis, tanking for guardians etc. So there is more class identity at level 20 than there is at level 60.

    7. How is that going to be easier? you have to come up with at least 3 versions of each skill plus (if the mounted combat trees are any indicator) about 45-50 different traits. Class balancing is not only already really bad, it is something that is never addressed and outside the almost guaranteed imbalances introduced by this massive overhaul which will not be addressed any time early after launch this promises to be another 6 months+ of badly tuned classes.

    The game has changed a lot, not all of those changes have been for the better. It is too early to judge if this change is just change for the sake of keeping some designers busy and employed or if it will add any value to the game. I do have to say I am cautiously pessimistic based on other major changes to the game over the last 2 years as to the success of these proposed changes. Ultimately I would rather see the tank classes get reworked (warden get nerfed down to the level of the rest of us mere mortals and guardian get reworked so their threat generation is relevant again).

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapience View Post
    by Hoarsedev

    Hey all. Let’s take some time to understand the class trait changes coming with Helm’s Deep. The biggest question I get about the class changes is… Why? It’s a pretty big question so I’ll try to break down a few of the reasons here.

    http://www.lotro.com/en/game/article...ees-helms-deep
    Initial reaction.. Holy Crack.. it kinda feels like transparency.

    Now, sadly, as I type this, the sick feeling that I have been disillusioned before sinks in. But at least I understand the Dev side of why skill reductions.. Somehow, I really did not read much about trait trees as much as skill consolidation.. Or did I miss something?

    SIGH.

  3. #28
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    Although changing is hard, I understand the need of the change. Even you "CANNOT do just about everything" AT THE SAME TIME anymore, but I understand the need of this nerf. When a champ could tank AND dps the same time, no one want the guard/warden anymore. Or when capt can buff and heal just fine, no one want RK/mini.

    However, what I afraid is, will the instances/raids/battles be dump down because the classes was nerf? Ok, maybe the first battles cluster come with HD could be lack and easy, because everything is new and people need time to get used to their classes again. But after that? I wish the devs could say something to encourage the players that love group contents.

  4. #29
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    agreed, there was basically nothing in here about trait trees, almost entirely about skill consolidation.

    Probably would have been better to entitle this post as "Ideology Behind Helm's Deep Class Changes" or something along those lines.

    As far as the diary is concerned. I whole-heartedly agree with Hoarsedev, the main issue with 85 content/instances being too easy is that our character are using LIs, elite skills, and hybridization of skills to fight monsters with the same AI as back at lvl 20-50 in SoA scaled content.

    Isengard did a good job of giving mobs some new skills, but they had no ability to react to every stronger improved versions of what we have.

    I'm not sure why Turbine hasn't spent much time developing a stronger more resolute enemy AI (esp in raids), but as someone else has stated, a lvl 85 wolf/orc has the same skills and abilities as a lvl 18 orc/wolf NW of bree on landscape for most situations.
    LvL 100s: Beorning, Burglar, Captain, Champ, Guardian, Hunter, Lore-Master, Minstrel, Rune-Keeper
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  5. #30
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    I Will Survive

    At first I was afraid, I was petrified; kept thinking I would never live without a Guardian at my side.
    But then I read all these awesome words about how I was wrong, and I grew strong, and I know I will get along.
    I feel immensely better about having pre-ordered Helm's Deep after reading this dev diary. Kudos for the use of the word 'holistic.' That's what made it click for me. Thank you. Truly. (And thank you to the devs for being so openly communicative!)

    Sincerely,
    A Pacified Hunter, looking forward to Helm's Deep
    I can understand your anger at me, but what could you possibly have against the horse I rode in on?
    --------------------------------------------------
    > Founder of Legacy of Narsilion <
    - Extra Life Gamer | Captain, [+INT] Intelligence Modifiers -
    --------------------------------------------------

  6. #31
    Love that part about how the class changes will continue to come even after this "class change to end all class changes." So let's see, in the three months before the next round of class changes, I'll have figured out maybe three of the nine classes ? They think some players need the illusion that change = advancement or they will lose interest. So they keep putting most of their development resources into destroying unbroken content. Can we please just be allowed to play this game without all these constant changes ? Who cares if this latest round of changes is good or bad ? In three months they'll just change it again.

  7. #32
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    "for the good of the game and its longevity, we sometimes need to make big changes: <- 'longevity' ahhh, that word when associated with LOTRO is music to my ears
    other favorite middle-earth games: The One Ring RPG by Cubicle 7; LotR: The Card Game by FFG; Hobbit/LotR Strategy Battle Game by GW

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by MithrielWielder View Post
    So they keep putting most of their development resources into destroying unbroken content.
    Perhaps you are ignoring the entire new region, three new epic books, new crafting tier and entire new game system called Big Battles. That's a whole lot of new content in addition to the class changes.

    Quote Originally Posted by MithrielWielder View Post
    Can we please just be allowed to play this game without all these constant changes
    If you are unhappy with regular changes, then an MMO is the worst kind of game to play. There are so many moving parts, an ever increasing world, and a growing number of interconnected systems, that it is simply impossible to achieve a state where everything works perfectly in a balanced and fun manner, all the while attempting to appease players hungry for new content. The only way to limit this would be to essentially axe development and leave the game in a static, stagnant state. Yet even single-player games get patches and updates for a period, sometimes years, that change how things play.

    Quote Originally Posted by MithrielWielder View Post
    Who cares if this latest round of changes is good or bad ? In three months they'll just change it again.
    The reason we should care is because the future changes will be based on just how good or bad the current changes are, and the feedback we, QA, the Player's Council, Palantir, and beta leave. If we were to follow your logic, we shouldn't care about any of the changes in three months time either, because there will be future changes three months after that, and a year after that, and several years down the line. That flawed logic would have prevented me from experiencing all of the fun iterations of the game and classes I have played since the game launched.

    What goes live with Helm's Deep will likely have unresolved issues, unforeseen problems, and a whole lot of unsquashed bugs. That is the nature of the beast when it comes to projects as large as this. I think many of us would like for those issues, problems and bugs to be addressed in time.

    -Bel
    Belnavar - Captain - 105 - Brandywine - Leader of Keepers of the Palantiri

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belnavar View Post
    7. Balancing difficulty and future-proofing - This is not something we think much of as players, but the class system needs to not become so unwieldy that it cannot properly be balanced or expanded in the future. Sure, upgraded skills was working for a time, although some would argue it was working poorly, but we've now come to the situation where we have upgrades of upgrades. Where does this end, and when does it get to a situation where there is simply no more room for upgrades, with all classes essentially doing the same thing with different animations? With several more expansions to go in the lifetime of this game, this is a situation that badly needed to be addressed, one way or another.
    This is the one that is extremely important. It will make our classes much easier to balance.

  10. #35
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    First of all, I want to thank Sapience, HoarseDev and all the others who brought this bit of communication to us. It makes me happy that you've heard our voices and taken actions that I personally have asked for (writing and releasing this Dev Diary).

    I think that with this, everyone will know the thoughts behind why making a change at all was so important and lets us get a grasp of what the changes are intended to accomplish. That in turn will allow Testers to give more focused feedback and also giving non-testers a bit more meat to what's really going on on the other side of this screen we all look at.

    Lastly, I will say this: You're not out of the fire just yet! Especially RockX, I'm going to pick some bones elsewhere and you may not like it...
    [SIZE=3][COLOR=#00ff00]Ours is not to wonder what is fair in life, but to take what we have and make cat ears for cute girls to wear[/COLOR][/SIZE] [COLOR=#b22222]Toshirat R8 BA, Nerfbatzergrat R7 Reaver, Arliknakh R6warg[/COLOR][COLOR=#add8e6], Mihall 100Captain, Tarhigen 100LM, Kalaeya 95RK,Sume 85Champ, Theophilea 85Warden, Toboe 65Hunter, Cheza 40Burg, Koriana 40Guard, Kumako 16 Beorning
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  11. #36
    Thanks for this, but I'm left with some questions.
    1) HD takes us to lvl95, by the time we get to Mordor we will be much higher (probably about 120) - will the trait trees be obviously incomplete to show where future development will go? Or will they be complete, and all future development just cramming more skills into the existing structure (exactly what HoarseDev said is the current problem)?
    2) As a premium player who has paid for several trait slots in the existing system, how will these be handled? Will the cost get refunded? Access to more slots in the new tree? It disappears completely and I have to treat it as a sunk cost? Or something else which bears no relation to what I actually paid for? While F2P will get the least, and VIP get the most, Premiums might be anywhere in-between.

  12. #37
    Reading this diary left me underwhelmed and with a really, really bad feeling. Combating skill bloat is a valiant endeavour, but sacrificing the solid trait system for that is puzzling, as I think that the number of available skills is mostly unrelated to traits. One can get additional skills from racial traits (max of 2 ?) and legendary traits (max also 2 ? not sure) and compared to the number of base skills, these are irrelevant.
    I think the number of skills could have been reduced independently.

    The forced specialization of roles that comes with the new system is also a negative aspect. The ability to switch roles on-the-fly isn't a bad thing.

    And finally, I think it's hilarious that Turbine apologizes for Helm's Deep in advance while the beta is still under NDA
    Now pl[b]a[/b]ying : Br[b]a[/b]hmiel, Level 100 Elf LM and so h[b]a[/b]ppy my pet lets me t[b]a[/b]g [b]a[/b]long !
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  13. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by AarawynnP View Post
    Kudos for the use of the word 'holistic.' That's what made it click for me.
    Funny. Reading 'holistic' made me do the same thing it always does, which would be jumping up, shouting "BS!" for having completed a row in the BS bingo.

    Un-informative, justification-type "dev diary" FTL.

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  14. #39
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    The new trait system that comes in u12 is really just the start of a conversation about how our classes work and how we can continue to make them better.

    What?
    - new trait system should be end of conversation about how our classes work. As i see these "dev diaries" i am more and more skeptical.

    Commander Liliam - the Warden
    Evernight

  15. #40
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    Personally I view the changes with extreem scepticism (deliberate spelling) based on Turbine's previous efforts and am waiting with earplugs ready for the screams of outrage when players find how their characters have been homogenised, nerfed, dumbed down and lost their favourite and most used skills and traits. Especially from those who spent ages grinding deeds to earn and use traits that are now in areas of different skill trees that can't be reconciled because Turbine's new vision doesn't let players play their characters the way they want anymore.

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by podgie_bear View Post
    ready for the screams of outrage when players find how their characters have been
    This is expected. Many old-time players are only waiting the moment when they can say: "Look, you updated the game, it is now unplayable, I quit".
    However, I see it only as an excuse. I can understand it. Someone who spent a couple of years on certain sort of activity, get tired of it, no fun anymore. Can not quit without reason, looking for reason and yep, here's the reason: the game has been changed and it became unplayble in personal opinion.

    While, at the same time, newcomers will be (or will not be) happy with the new system. It may be better, it may be worse. We have yet to see it.
    One thing is certain. Many old-timers will find upcoming change a good excuse to leave the LOTRO boat.

    It IS expected. Well, by me, in any case

  17. #42
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    Pretty much as i thought... I almost preordered for the first time ever, after reading the guard dev diary.. But after reading this i finally did....

    For the first time in years i feel Turbine deserves my cash for this game...
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  18. #43
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    Sounds to me like breaking eggs to make omelets ... I like Omelets

    Ravn
    When in Danger, When in Doubt, Run in Circles, Scream & Shout

  19. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by evguenil View Post
    This is expected. Many old-time players are only waiting the moment when they can say: "Look, you updated the game, it is now unplayable, I quit".
    However, I see it only as an excuse. I can understand it. Someone who spent a couple of years on certain sort of activity, get tired of it, no fun anymore. Can not quit without reason, looking for reason and yep, here's the reason: the game has been changed and it became unplayble in personal opinion.

    I've never read so much cr*p in a couple of sentences.
    Who do you think you are, making such assumptions ?

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliahnus View Post
    I've never read so much cr*p in a couple of sentences.
    Who do you think you are, making such assumptions ?
    One moment. I talk about things in general. I maybe wrong, I maybe right. You talk about me as a person. Why?

    I say it for people who wants to listen. They may disagree. And they will probably disagree in the first place and will probably find this idea ridiculous and lame, refusing to admit something like this. I can understand it too. That's just something to keep in mind for those who are going to say "You made the game unplayable". Perhaps one should simply say instead: "Hey fellows, I've been playing this game for two years, I've had enough. I quit. Though I may be back one day. Thanks everyone".

  21. #46
    Well, if you don't want to up-skill a game, you have to down-skill the players to keep it a challenge.

    And please stop with "it's still in beta, you don't know anything yet and just wait till it comes out".
    The positive posters react on info provided by Turbine here too.

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by andracy View Post
    I think that this is the most comprehensive dev diary about HD changes hehe. After i readed all, i realised that now i tend to agree with Turbine from some points of view and i tend to not be so more grumpy about changes.
    Indeed some classes was GOD and in hands of good old players, that made them lethal weapons. *Sniff, i remembered now again about multitasking of classes in Lotro.* No more solo with my mini through most of low level instances. (Thx god i did my deeds). No more LM healing, CC and debuff. No more healing, tanking and buffing on cappy. *Ok, now i will gonna cry for sure.* Indeed i will regret all these for sure. But maybe indeed was time for an change. This way, ppl will not take an cappy as healer anymore in an 6 man instance with 5 dps. You WILL need one proper healer and one tank. The only not ok thing is that maybe we are heading toward holly trinity again in all instances, who is ok in 6/12 man but in 3 man, this will seriously impact the class you bring there. Please think about this and either rething the content acordingly, either dont *dumb us* too hard.

    And is no chance to adopt the new changes but give up to skill tree? It make me sick when i see it only in photos.

    A good player should be able to play a class as if it was GOD.

  23. #48
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    HD comes with 5 solo/duo instances, 1 3-man instance, 1 6-man instance, 1 12-man raid if I get it right.

    To be successful in solo instance you need all kind of traits. DPS, tanking, healing traits...

  24. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Stu_NZ View Post
    2) As a premium player who has paid for several trait slots in the existing system, how will these be handled? Will the cost get refunded? Access to more slots in the new tree? It disappears completely and I have to treat it as a sunk cost? Or something else which bears no relation to what I actually paid for? While F2P will get the least, and VIP get the most, Premiums might be anywhere in-between.
    They somewhat answered it in a Twitter Q/A before:

    Q5: banjolier: For players who spent TP to unlock trait slots, how will you convert our existing purchases to the new system? #LOTRO
    A5: HoarseDev: Your specialization choice gives you access to bonuses as you spend points. #LOTRO
    A5a: These are unlocked in the same way as the old slots and those purchases carry over to the new system. #LOTRO
    So basically you will not get all the bonuses whatever they are (I guess mainly similar to the trait line bonuses that we have now and some specific skill enhancing bonuses as well).
    How that will affect the class and its capability we will see.
    Currently not having all class trait slots is quite a nerf so I expect it to be similar with the new trees.

    Overall it will not be a sunk cost and you will get something in return.
    I am still curious to see how exactly this will look like though and whether we can assume that with the new system the TP costs involved to get all bonuses is the same as in the current system.


    Additional trait setup slots might be quite in demand for classes that can fit multiple roles so I guess quite a few will buy at least a third slot to be able to save one setup per traitline.

  25. #50
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    This is exactly the stuff I've been chirping on the forums here since the skill trees were announced. Hopefully people will give more weight to a dev saying it. There is no freaking use for 4 full skillbars, that does not make for a fun game, yet people seem to still want to argue for it. I want to know my skills and love my skills. Right now all my characters feel so blended and watered down. There needs to be some real separation between character builds. Thank you, Turbine, can't wait!
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