We have detected that cookies are not enabled on your browser. Please enable cookies to ensure the proper experience.
Results 1 to 25 of 163

Hybrid View

  1. #1
    Sapience is offline Former Community Manager & Harbinger of Soon
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    9,519

    Dev Diary: Trait Trees in Helm's Deep

    by Hoarsedev

    Hey all. Let’s take some time to understand the class trait changes coming with Helm’s Deep. The biggest question I get about the class changes is… Why? It’s a pretty big question so I’ll try to break down a few of the reasons here.

    http://www.lotro.com/en/game/article...ees-helms-deep
    Last edited by Sapience; Oct 09 2013 at 04:35 PM.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    148
    Nice ! So this is the reason why and how. I like this.
    Happy to be here :D!

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    2 Waterbank Road, Eryn Lelryn, Falathlorn Homesteads
    Posts
    1,875
    Very nice. As a Hunter and Mini at level cap, I can honestly agree with there being skills that go unused most of the time (PvE), and are never placed in rotation due to long animations/inductions or abhorrent cooldowns that just don't make sense to have as a go-to skill.

    I do look forward to seeing these trees. I will not be making any biased opinions off of other people's pre-release thoughts that may or may not be wrong.
    Tarphindiel~Hu~100, Tolella~Mi~86, Ryeberry~Gu~80, Torfrik~Rk~80, Arindis~Be~60
    Meleras~Wd~50, Minethril~Ca~49, Diorwen~Ch~44, Indiria~Lm~38, Alanda~Bu~32
    And Fourteen Other Alts
    Founder of Gladden's "The Fellowship of the Ping"

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    1,034
    Really liked the "punch in the end" making all skills worth while while also able to make rotations depending on the role, streamlineed and fit for the future.

    Excellent Turbine keep it up!

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    My Home is the Moors, roaming around .....
    Posts
    421
    Nice to find out hte reason behind it all.

    Unfortunately, both sides do not get the same care and love they deserve in this game and it has once again shown its head with this developement of the trait trees.

    Creeps yet again fail to get anything other then another 6 corruption slots (whoooooppie doooooo) when we should've got the same treatment and the same type of trait trees but we cant can we, Devs? Why not is due to how we were originally built and how they failed to see that PvMP would actually be a huge part of this game and one that could've brought in more money then they even dream off.

    Creeps are only glorified NPC's as a build and therefore can't be given any proper upgrades but only stupid little tinkerings that do nothing but make things worse.
    [CENTER]BiteMarks
    ~ the names Marks .... BiteMarks ~
    [/CENTER]

  6. #6
    The title of the thread makes it seem like your traits are dependent on or reflected by you hair style! (Tongue firmly in cheek!)
    Officer and elder member of the Claws of Abigail kin.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    1,219

    Seems like sound reasoning to me.

    *Eyeballs her 4 full quickslot bars*

    Some of you guys got to go!!!

    Still a bit anxious, but I do think the reason here is along the lines I expected. More skills = more things to balance/break...
    LilyRose of Gladden, Mistress of the Rangers of the West Kinship. Come check out our kin at rangerswest.guildlaunch.com.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Indiana, USA
    Posts
    392
    I think that HoarseDev's diary is hitting a lot of good points in the justification for making the change to trait trees.

    I don't want to play a "we can't call it brown because brown isn't this ugly" class of blurred responsibilities and weak opportunities.

    I don't want more skills that only existed to fit everyone's idea of what leveling up should be. I want skills that I can use and I can improve.

    I don't want to wonder where I'll find the screen landscape to pile on more hotbars. I'm tired of having so many skills that I can't find another good place for the ones I want to use the most.

    I don't want slow skills just because we have to animate them somehow.


    I'm still worried about this because I don't think mounted combat works particularly well with the trait trees. I'm one of the people who is very nervous about seeing skills be gated behind other skills and so I need to see real trait trees. I'm still worried about classes that were supposed to be hybrids and how they'll retain their nature through these changes.

    Plagiarizing another post I wrote elsewhere on this topic... I'm still nervous but I'm more curious than terrified now. I really want to see what's behind the curtain.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    St Louis Mo
    Posts
    1,999
    Quote Originally Posted by Sapience View Post
    by Hoarsedev

    Hey all. Let’s take some time to understand the class trait changes coming with Helm’s Deep. The biggest question I get about the class changes is… Why? It’s a pretty big question so I’ll try to break down a few of the reasons here.

    http://www.lotro.com/en/game/article...ees-helms-deep
    Initial reaction.. Holy Crack.. it kinda feels like transparency.

    Now, sadly, as I type this, the sick feeling that I have been disillusioned before sinks in. But at least I understand the Dev side of why skill reductions.. Somehow, I really did not read much about trait trees as much as skill consolidation.. Or did I miss something?

    SIGH.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    612
    Although changing is hard, I understand the need of the change. Even you "CANNOT do just about everything" AT THE SAME TIME anymore, but I understand the need of this nerf. When a champ could tank AND dps the same time, no one want the guard/warden anymore. Or when capt can buff and heal just fine, no one want RK/mini.

    However, what I afraid is, will the instances/raids/battles be dump down because the classes was nerf? Ok, maybe the first battles cluster come with HD could be lack and easy, because everything is new and people need time to get used to their classes again. But after that? I wish the devs could say something to encourage the players that love group contents.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    2,780
    agreed, there was basically nothing in here about trait trees, almost entirely about skill consolidation.

    Probably would have been better to entitle this post as "Ideology Behind Helm's Deep Class Changes" or something along those lines.

    As far as the diary is concerned. I whole-heartedly agree with Hoarsedev, the main issue with 85 content/instances being too easy is that our character are using LIs, elite skills, and hybridization of skills to fight monsters with the same AI as back at lvl 20-50 in SoA scaled content.

    Isengard did a good job of giving mobs some new skills, but they had no ability to react to every stronger improved versions of what we have.

    I'm not sure why Turbine hasn't spent much time developing a stronger more resolute enemy AI (esp in raids), but as someone else has stated, a lvl 85 wolf/orc has the same skills and abilities as a lvl 18 orc/wolf NW of bree on landscape for most situations.
    LvL 100s: Beorning, Burglar, Captain, Champ, Guardian, Hunter, Lore-Master, Minstrel, Rune-Keeper
    LvL 85: Warden, Minstrel
    All my forum posts are my opinions and may not even be that. Also On Twitter: @leixicon

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Florida, USA
    Posts
    148

    I Will Survive

    At first I was afraid, I was petrified; kept thinking I would never live without a Guardian at my side.
    But then I read all these awesome words about how I was wrong, and I grew strong, and I know I will get along.
    I feel immensely better about having pre-ordered Helm's Deep after reading this dev diary. Kudos for the use of the word 'holistic.' That's what made it click for me. Thank you. Truly. (And thank you to the devs for being so openly communicative!)

    Sincerely,
    A Pacified Hunter, looking forward to Helm's Deep
    [CENTER][COLOR=#009966][FONT=franklin gothic medium][SIZE=3][I][FONT=palatino linotype]I can understand your anger at me, but what could you possibly have against the horse I rode in on?[/FONT][/I][/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/CENTER]
    [CENTER][FONT=franklin gothic medium][SIZE=3]--------------------------------------------------[/SIZE][/FONT][COLOR=#cc9933][FONT=franklin gothic medium][SIZE=3]
    [/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#ffcc66]> [/COLOR][SIZE=3][COLOR=#ffcc66][FONT=franklin gothic medium]Founder of [/FONT][/COLOR][FONT=franklin gothic medium][U][URL="http://legacyofnarsilion.guildlaunch.com/"][COLOR=#99ff99]Legacy of Narsilion[/COLOR][/URL][/U][COLOR=#ffcc66] <[/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE][/CENTER]
    [CENTER][COLOR=#ff6600]- [FONT=franklin gothic medium][SIZE=2]Extra Life Gamer | [/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][U][URL="http://www.extra-life.org/participant/89904"][COLOR=#ff0033]Captain[/COLOR][/URL][/U][COLOR=#ff6600][FONT=franklin gothic medium], [+INT] Intelligence Modifiers -[/FONT][/COLOR][/CENTER]
    [CENTER][FONT=franklin gothic medium]--------------------------------------------------[/FONT][/CENTER]

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by AarawynnP View Post
    Kudos for the use of the word 'holistic.' That's what made it click for me.
    Funny. Reading 'holistic' made me do the same thing it always does, which would be jumping up, shouting "BS!" for having completed a row in the BS bingo.

    Un-informative, justification-type "dev diary" FTL.

    SNy
    LotRO on Linux! http://SNy.name/LOTRO/
    Also home to the LI progression diagram.
    Find the new forums unreadable? Try my forum theme.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Snowbourn
    Posts
    553
    The new trait system that comes in u12 is really just the start of a conversation about how our classes work and how we can continue to make them better.

    What?
    - new trait system should be end of conversation about how our classes work. As i see these "dev diaries" i am more and more skeptical.

    Commander Liliam - the Warden

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Dev Diary
    What happens when you keep mixing different paint colors? You get an underwhelming sort of brown color.
    I'd like to point out that if you mix red, yellow, and blue paint alongside each other, you get a beautiful rainbow. I'm truly going to miss LOTRO's beautiful rainbow of class trait selections.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Dublin, Ireland
    Posts
    1,626
    Quote Originally Posted by Fredelas View Post
    I'd like to point out that if you mix red, yellow, and blue paint alongside each other, you get a beautiful rainbow. I'm truly going to miss LOTRO's beautiful rainbow of class trait selections.
    That doesn't change the fact that if you mix the three colours together, you get brown. I think we've gone more brown than rainbow over the years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seschat View Post
    DCUO limits you to six powers, and I find that frustratingly unplayable, and reduced to mindless button mashing.
    I would be very surprised if we were reduced to six skills, and I would agree with you if that were the case. The devs have already said in Twitter chats that the rough goal is 20 something skills, not counting things like ports. It will be interesting to count just how many skills we end up with, as presumably we will be able to make some hybrid builds that can acquire more.

    -Bel
    Belnavar - Captain - 105 - Brandywine - Leader of Keepers of the Palantiri

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Cornwall, UK
    Posts
    1,383
    Quote Originally Posted by Belnavar View Post
    That doesn't change the fact that if you mix the three colours together, you get brown. I think we've gone more brown than rainbow over the years.

    I would be very surprised if we were reduced to six skills, and I would agree with you if that were the case. The devs have already said in Twitter chats that the rough goal is 20 something skills, not counting things like ports. It will be interesting to count just how many skills we end up with, as presumably we will be able to make some hybrid builds that can acquire more.

    -Bel
    The big question is what 20 skills isn't it? And are those skills going to provide different results depending on stance in the way that 'Major Ballad' does for a Minstrel in/out of War Speach? Having just 20 skills is not a lot for classes with more than one possible role to play, so those skills are going to have to be VERY carefully selected and balanced or the classes are going to end up being dumbed down to a very low level!

  18. #18
    Bland? Lotro's classes -even after all this time- aren't bland. Rather they're as bland, or complex, as you wish to play them. But you're breaking that, aren't you?

    What then? Are the fools you're catering to with this coming pretend-expansion unable to click and drag an ability off of their bars in order to witness more of this game's long past aging artworks? No? Why must others suffer for -and I won't say ineptitude- but rather laziness? Why?

    There's nothing wrong with the traits we now have, nor the skills. Nothing wrong that taking five minutes and reading a bloody tool tip shouldn't mend. They work. They do what they say. Or is the next pretend-expansion after this catering to the 'redeng iz dum' set? Lord of the Rings Online: Siege of Gondor, "Now with Pretty Colour Mashy Buttons!™"

    If you'd wanted to strike boldly whilst 'cutting the fat' from parts of lotro that truly needed the trimming -why did you never have rid of legendary items? You've said classes are become bland- that they need further focusing, and a feeling of growth. Then why not take all the legacies we have now and use them as the foundations of your new trees? A tree apart from the traits yet which builds on them and grows as we level? You'd still have a feeling of growth from level one, while leaving the choosing for further complexity where it is. Why not this- why not please so many more of us, and elegantly so? Is it more to do with keeping guaranteed seller -legendary item augmenters- in your cash shop? Or it that such a system would actually function as legendary items should have done all along?

    Without legendary items, we could have crafter's wares -weapon smiths, woodworkers etc.- matter once again - more than as offhand weapons or pullers for tanks. Without legendary items we could have the loots- even weapons loots from instancing and skirmishing and yes, even raiding, matter again in turn. You could fold in some of the augmenters -the stat and damage items we have from quartermasters -Beleriand, Ancient Dwarf, Westernesse- to function with regular loot and crafted weapons. And who knows? Players might even want to try and spend an outting in the barrows or Moria or Annuminas, what more the other places you'd given us in the last few years, if they only knew they might find a lovely new sword or mace or bow or axe or whatever within. I know I'm not the only soul who loves weapons with unique textures and meshings. And there again are the cosmetic slots for weapons, what more dyeing for shields and other off hand items so many have begged for.

    As it is now- as it is with everything I've read about Helm's Deep, nothing's truly changed or changing. Blandness was come before in the shape of overarching currencies -medallions etc.- and should only grind onward with Big Battles. Come November, after having played the same battles endlessly- and for some this will begin as early as level ten- we'll all of us spend on the same armours and jewelry rather than finding them, looting them, from the dungeons and world we explore. What we'll have -and should this pay handsome for you- for years to come is yet another and another and another set of grinds. Bland and wearing grinds where, having reached whatever their endings, we'll have naught but more standing about in the hub cities of the moment, dressed up with nowhere to go.

    Recall when you'd said before, when you'd taken daily skirmishing rewards away, that you'd given us the fellowship finder -the thing that punished us for choosing rather than taking random instancings- so that players would play more than the same one or two dungeons that gave the best rewards for time spent. Rather than say, tweaking those other dungeons to make them worth playing. But now, here you're come, turned about, and done one better _or worse- and given us an even narrower path! No random loots, no nothing, gathered in one place with naught but a bar for marking how much mind-numbing tedium we've set through and how much further tedium we've left before we're given one of your dubious treats.

    Here you are, ushering in some of the worst McGaming I've ever seen, and you've the gall to run on about blandness?

    For that, and for all of it yet to come, I feel you lot at Turbine should be ashamed.

  19. #19
    Ground targeted skills? I run without the mouse, so these will be more or less useless for me. I hope they aren't useful skills, or that there are classes that don't have them, or that they are 95% as effective targeted on a fellow/enemy.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/012030000000c907c/01008/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

 

 

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

This form's session has expired. You need to reload the page.

Reload