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  1. #1
    Sapience is offline Former Community Manager & Harbinger of Soon
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    Developer Diary : Warden Class Changes in Helm’s Deep

    “Hail and well met my friends!” as the Rohirrim are wont to say. It’s time for the Warden dev diary! For the upcoming expansion, the Warden is getting some snazzy new abilities, but we’ve also made a concerted effort to trim down the number of Gambits and skills you’ll have to memorise and store on your hotbars. We want to present a more streamlined, engaging experience that still rewards mastering the Gambit system.

    http://www.lotro.com/en/game/article...E2%80%99s-deep

  2. #2
    so basically we lose the ability to dynamically change between roles in combat by changing gear and stances, but keep the essence of warden and no longer have the annoying min range issue in assailment. I can live with that. Looks good.
    Welleg - brandywine, Kelleg/Gelleg - Landroval
    WARNING: leveling a warden may cause you to neglect your other characters.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by gelleg View Post
    so basically we lose the ability to dynamically change between roles in combat by changing gear and stances, but keep the essence of warden and no longer have the annoying min range issue in assailment. I can live with that. Looks good.
    The only thing I feel is missing is some kind of number regarding the reduction in Gambits. Yes, there are a lot and yes, some can definitely go away. Are we looking at 25%? 40%?

    Nothing here screams diminished fun, which is good. The Recklessness/Determination stance roll-up into In the Fray is theoretically a welcome thing. I'm very curious to see how things pan out in actual play.

  4. #4
    What I want to know is if this means we are losing gambit riders or if they will be something we need to trait for. Conviction is a skill I use in all three stances and will change stance to use based on the current situation, but with only one melee stance will it lose the threat leech, the physical mastery buff or both or will we be able to trait for both effects? Will it still maintain its current rider in assailment or is that something we'll need to trait for or will that rider be going away? Only one example, but the list here is very long and while I'm not complaining (much), I don't want to have to completely relearn the most complex class in the game again or have it become a true easy mode class. Learning what each gambit does three times (four if you count no stance) was a bit of a pain to do, but worth the effort and it would have been nice to know more details about whats happening to 1/3 or more of the riders on our gambits.

    I love that the minimum range is going away in assailment, but think the melee attack debuff should apply to all ranged classes. Bwahahaha :P

    Also, applause for saying all this is subject to change based upon further review. I like it when someone that is affecting changes thoroughly tests them before full implementation, this seems to be an all too rare occurrence.

  5. #5
    Very skeptical. Removing gambits? absurd! two stances instead of 3? I loved stance dancing depending on what needed to be done..
    Kudos for removing minimum range on assailment however!

    P.S. Wardens are NOT JUST AOE TANKS!! We are also rather spectacular tanks on boss fights!! (at least we were.)

    Im skeptical and missing Graal and Orion. seems like someone ripped the heart out of the warden and they are all cooky cutter now.

    Still no ferrets???
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/032020000003bfae5/01008/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

  6. #6
    Anyone know which developer wrote the diary?
    Adaaon (Minstrel), Gwydionn (Hunter), Tarrann (Burglar)
    [url]http://thenoldor.guildlaunch.com[/url]

  7. #7
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    Thumbs down

    Quote Originally Posted by Sapience View Post
    “Hail and well met my friends!” as the Rohirrim are wont to say. It’s time for the Warden dev diary! For the upcoming expansion, the Warden is getting some snazzy new abilities, but we’ve also made a concerted effort to trim down the number of Gambits and skills you’ll have to memorise and store on your hotbars. We want to present a more streamlined, engaging experience that still rewards mastering the Gambit system.

    http://www.lotro.com/en/game/article...E2%80%99s-deep

    Please tell me this is a joke!!!!! please!!!!!

  8. #8
    As someone who primarily PvPs, here are a few impressions: 1. Assailment will only work in the Moors if you are in a group and are very careful to stay in the middle or back of the group where a charging/over-extending creep will get blown up. In a solo situation it will be a problem as creeps will know that all they have to do it close to melee range and our DPS is greatly diminished, allowing them to fight without the worry of getting hit back. 2. Determination will work as it always has- food for PvEing (flipping keeps amd such- hooray), but for real PvP, not so much. Survivability is fine, but if you can't dissh out damage you won't comtribute much to killing the enemy when grouped and will just be worn down until the inevitable call-out arrives when solo. 3. Recklessness may be ok, provided DPS is not nerfed. We will have a harder time versus CD popping reavers, weavers, etc, (aka most of them) since it sounds like DC is getting nerfed and our heals in recklessness are either gone or limited (I think this is the case), leaving us kind of like hunters (medium armor), but without the reliable stuns to buy time and less DPS to blow stuff up nefore it gets us first. We'll see...

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by gelleg View Post
    so basically we lose the ability to dynamically change between roles in combat by changing gear and stances, but keep the essence of warden and no longer have the annoying min range issue in assailment. I can live with that. Looks good.
    This essentially encompasses my opinion on the dev diary. I was VERY worried that we would lose gambits completley, and very worried that we would no longer be able to switch between Recklessness and Determination (as you can't heal in recklessness :P)

    It seems like with "In the Frey" i can still heal, and still deal damage. Sure, each will be worse as i may not be traited for it, but it should be enough to get by on in battle.

    Certainly, the changes could have been TERRIBLE, but they weren't , they look livable.
    Zacharr -- 100 -- Hunter -- Firefoot. I guess that's the new character signature :P

  10. #10
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    At least you don't have ridiculous Pokemon sounding move pools like "Sic'em" or "Bombastic Inspiration".

    or we'll let's hope.

    No minimum range assailmaint let the creeps rage !

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Cunaith View Post
    As someone who primarily PvPs, here are a few impressions: 1. Assailment will only work in the Moors if you are in a group and are very careful to stay in the middle or back of the group where a charging/over-extending creep will get blown up. In a solo situation it will be a problem as creeps will know that all they have to do it close to melee range and our DPS is greatly diminished, allowing them to fight without the worry of getting hit back. 2. Determination will work as it always has- food for PvEing (flipping keeps amd such- hooray), but for real PvP, not so much. Survivability is fine, but if you can't dissh out damage you won't comtribute much to killing the enemy when grouped and will just be worn down until the inevitable call-out arrives when solo. 3. Recklessness may be ok, provided DPS is not nerfed. We will have a harder time versus CD popping reavers, weavers, etc, (aka most of them) since it sounds like DC is getting nerfed and our heals in recklessness are either gone or limited (I think this is the case), leaving us kind of like hunters (medium armor), but without the reliable stuns to buy time and less DPS to blow stuff up nefore it gets us first. We'll see...
    If you trait for Melee DPS, but start in Assailment stance, then when a creep runs up to you, you simply switch stances and do even more damage then you were before. While the creep is running back from the graveyard, you click a few buttons to switch your traits to Assailment. This time the creep tries to kill you at range, only to discover that now your Assailment stance does more damage then Melee. This time the creep gathers some friends before running back from the graveyard. However, you've already spent some TP to maintain a third trait line, and you switch to your tanking traits. The mob of creeps charges in thinking they've got a squishy DPS warden only to discover he's fully tank traited and can deal with them all.

    Given the diary never mentioned the word heal, what makes you think heals in DPS are gone or limited? And since no numbers have been given for DPS of ANY of the DPS classes, how is it you know the Warden will be doing less DPS then anybody else that traits for DPS? There is nothing in the dev diary to indicate we are getting nerfed, that our healing or DPS is being lowered, or that we will no longer be effective in the Moors. Until the NDA is lifted, or you get a Beta invite, there is simply no way that you can accurately make your doom and gloom predictions based on a diary that didn't mention any of the points you claim to be true.

    Now if you want to complain about the lack of a ferret, I'll back you 100%...

  12. #12
    Meh, so with HD I'll just do the same as before. "Spec" Determination and Recklessness, wear some tank gear and happily whittle away on pulls of 5-10 mobs.
    Now pl[b]a[/b]ying : Br[b]a[/b]hmiel, Level 100 Elf LM and so h[b]a[/b]ppy my pet lets me t[b]a[/b]g [b]a[/b]long !
    Olmfred, Level 86 M[b]a[/b]n W[b]a[/b]rden - boring | V[b]a[/b]bo, Level 85 Hobbit Minstrel - meh
    Svell[b]a[/b], Level 61 Elf Hunter - retired | Crome[b]a[/b], Level 58 M[b]a[/b]n C[b]a[/b]pt[b]a[/b]in - retired
    Free-del[b]a[/b]s !

  13. #13
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    The melee-range stacking debuff is a terrible idea, there is already the to-hit movement penalty, so if you are kiting and keeping a small gap to the target you will be getting two penalties (damage reduction and to-hit), do the devs even playtest their ideas before putting them out there.

    Retaining stance dancing between melee and ranged is an uninspired solution, wardens don't need the stances, what with talents trees to separate ranged and melee potency, and it should be one of their unique calling cards to be able to swap fluidly between ranged and melee, they have a spear and javelin equipped at all times after all. Swapping stance to go from melee to ranged is a terrible mechanic and it should have been removed.

  14. #14
    "... we’ve also made a concerted effort to trim down the number of Gambits and skills you’ll have to memorise..:"

    What I always wanted!!! Less thinking, less interest, fewer decisions. Iv'e always thougt it was bad that I coulnd't play the warden just like everyone else does, it looks like it can be helped now!

    I got so happy with the diary that I stopped reading after the first few sentences!¨

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1ZtB...&feature=share

  15. #15
    you could drop every single target fist gambit as I don't know that I have ever used them for anything other than the evade buff and class deeds. You could get rids of boars rush line as the unerring strike line is more than enough damage and I don't need the stun really. The tact mit gambit in the shield gambits is another waste candidate. When in recklessness boars rush line and even wall of steel aren't really used by me as unerring strike line bonuses are huge. Frankly , you can drop all if not most of the 2 builder gambits as they serve little purpose except as entry level gambits after level 40. Frankly , you could probably just make all the gambits we need or use just 3 builder gambits and drop the masteries. Point is we could cut the gambit count we have now in half and I probably wouldn't even notice or be effected by it at all. It has been my experience that using anything but the best gambit for the situation is a waste of time and only leads to waste as there are too many gambits that are less effective than others and give no significant gain to merit not using the bigger gambit instead.
    Welleg - brandywine, Kelleg/Gelleg - Landroval
    WARNING: leveling a warden may cause you to neglect your other characters.

  16. #16
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    Given that I haven't found the dev diaries as informative as they could have been, I don't think I can say with any validity just how much any classes are changing--they'll certainly be different and changes in game will require us to change. But that's all I'm seeing. I've not seen anything that says classes are ruined or unplayable. I'll only know that after I've tried to play them and after I've seen other people play them.

    What I liked from the Warden DD: that Assailment had its minimum range removed. For me, the minimum range was seriously getting in the way of me experimenting with the stance and skills.

    What I don't think I like: The two stances in lieu of the current three. I may be misreading but it sounds like it's going to be harder to switch roles like ranged assailer/melee tank/dpser on the fly because that sounds like it's locked inside of trees rather than stances. I will need to put the class in action to know for sure and I'm sure I'll have a lot of habits to break and muscle memory to retrain. That may or may not be fun.

    What I'm on the fence about: I go both ways on the reduction in gambits. I was kind of proud of playing a class as complicated as the warden but I also had to respect the opinions of a lot of my friends who were intrigued by the warden but were reluctant to give the class a try because of the complexity of gambits. I do find a glimmer of hope in "a concerted effort to trim down the number of Gambits and skills you’ll have to memorise and store on your hotbars. We want to present a more streamlined, engaging experience that still rewards mastering the Gambit system." Though I'm confused about what gambits are stored on hotbars. None of mine are currently on hotbars. Didn't know anyone did that. Am I missing something?

    Three wardens are waiting to know more:
    Bilbema - Nimrodel
    Ordwyna - Nimrodel
    Idesia - Riddermark

    Bring it on!

  17. #17
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    Some people say the warden is a bit to powerful...now I do agree but not half as much as people make them out to be...so with the new changes will they no longer me more powerful then the other classes?

    Maybe it's just me...or I know how to work them well...I don't know! xD

  18. #18
    a warden is OP because its a warden! Only the best , most determined players have put up with the changes we have had to endure and so only the strong have survived.
    Welleg - brandywine, Kelleg/Gelleg - Landroval
    WARNING: leveling a warden may cause you to neglect your other characters.

  19. #19
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    Sorry.. dont want to get whacked for a repost..

    My long winded reaction is here:

    https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...-dev-diary-out

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by gelleg View Post
    a warden is OP because its a warden! Only the best , most determined players have put up with the changes we have had to endure and so only the strong have survived.

    lol........
    Ridduk R14 WL
    Brandywine

  21. #21
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    If the ability lag isn't addressed, then all of this is moot. There is nothing more frustrating than ending up with a gambit that you did not intend due to ability lag.

  22. #22
    I don't think you could have made the Dev Diary much less informative. There are no information on HOW you plan to trim down the number of gambits. You did not give any informations about the new "snazzy abilities" and you did not say a thing about the discrepancy in power while tanking multiple adds and a single boss. Neither did you give information about the "new aggromanagement" or how tankiness is going to be calculated.

    Instead you have two paragraphs about the Assailment-Tree. Here's some news: This tree wasn't part of the class for the longest time it existed and most old-time warden don't give a damn about it. To me it seems you have clearly lost view of what made the warden appealing after it was announced.
    The wardens classforum was once the most dedicated and enriching subforum you had. However with every change you made to the class you went further away from your original design of a avoidancebased tank that has to anticipate his enemies move instead of reacting to it while waiting behind his shield.

    Judging from the amount of information you gave and how you decided to distribute it between the different trees I'm pretty sure you have moved further away from your original designs. There was more information given on the captains new/improved tanktree than there was on the Wardens tanktree. A tree that should have been the focus of this Devdiary.

    I hope you can do us old wardens some justice that started to play this class because it was a tank - not because it looked fancy and could pewpew javelins instead of arrows - and emphazise a bit on tanking.

    love

    Sheilyn
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/272180000001064cc/01002/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by gelleg View Post
    a warden is OP because its a warden! Only the best , most determined players have put up with the changes we have had to endure and so only the strong have survived.
    Ha! That's a nice way of looking at it. I'm still stuck in the original warden mindset. I never got used to the last round of changes, where stance altered gambit. Conviction is still just Conviction, I open with Precise Blow, I maintain threat with EoB. Basically I'm out of fashion. I also don't tank anymore. I come from a time when people claimed wardens couldn't tank the Watcher, or the Rift, or BG. I loved the challenge.

    I want to embrace the changes, truly, because I don't want to retire my warden. But like all the other dev diaries, it doesn't actually tell us anything. A few marketing tidbits about what DPS and tanking is, but nothing about what we're losing, how the execution will differ, how our specialisation into either tank or DPS will harm us during play (too little DPS? too squishy?)
    'A cage,' she said. 'To stay behind bars, until use and old age accept them, and all chance of doing great deeds is gone beyond recall or desire.'

  24. #24
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    Everything looks great. This update seems to clean the warden up a bit without removing what most love about the warden, the complexity of the class. I have a cap-level warden which I do not play much because I still haven't learned all of the numerous gambits. It's still fun to tank with even if I don't know what I'm doing. I mainly used only a few gambits anyway and this is what most others have told me who play wardens. Many have said they only used a few gambits even if they memorized them all. Of course the huge variety of gambits are nice but I felt that there were too many. I also did not see the need for 3 stances especially when there was not much difference between melee and tanking stance. Thanks to this update I'm looking forward to playing and learning my warden again! But the dps Minstrel will always be my fav class.

  25. #25
    As long as I can still self-heal at the same level I'll be satisfied.

    There always was too many Gambits that never got used so a streamline is necessary to bring it in line with other classes imo.

 

 
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