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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khafar View Post
    Correct. Those of us not in the beta will have zero meaningful feedback on these. But honestly, I just can't work up enough ego to claim that my feedback is going to make the difference between doing it well or doing it poorly. At a minimum, hundreds of other players will have offered theirs. That's good enough.

    Khafar
    I'm not in Beta, never been interested in seeing the content before it is finalized myself. But my understanding is that Beta is not for "meaningful feedback" on things like design decisions that have been made such as skill trees and how they are implmenented. It is for some moderate degree of unstructured testing and assistance in find of show-stopping bugs -- e.g. client crashes, quest chains that can't advance, etc. Expecting any big changes once the code is in beta doesn't seem to me to be very realistic given the development cycle and a probably strong desire not to slip the release date...

  2. #27
    Sapience is offline Former Community Manager & Harbinger of Soon
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    Quote Originally Posted by DelgonTheWise View Post
    I'm not in Beta, never been interested in seeing the content before it is finalized myself. But my understanding is that Beta is not for "meaningful feedback" on things like design decisions that have been made such as skill trees and how they are implmenented. It is for some moderate degree of unstructured testing and assistance in find of show-stopping bugs -- e.g. client crashes, quest chains that can't advance, etc. Expecting any big changes once the code is in beta doesn't seem to me to be very realistic given the development cycle and a probably strong desire not to slip the release date...
    I think someone has been telling you some pretty major falsehoods. So far the trait trees have been revised, adjusted, skills added, skills moved, some skills that were removed have been replaced or brought back, and literally hundreds of other changes to skills and classes since beta began. And more are on the way.

    About the only thing I can say regarding the Trait Trees is that those who are opposed to the very idea should understand that the change to Trait Trees is coming with Update 12, full stop. There are some who don't want to hear that. We know this. You've probably heard from some of them as they've violated their NDA and their commitments as beta players. But those who have taken the fact that trait tress are coming and their role to make them the best they can be seriously, have thus far provided invaluable feedback and led to direct changes to specific trees, skill access, and more and continue to do so.

    There is no "draft" to share as the trees change based on feedback nearly every build (some more than others). In fact we put up a new beta build today that made some changes and we'll soon be putting up another that changes them even more based on beta tester feedback.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapience View Post
    I think someone has been telling you some pretty major falsehoods.
    I think the issue is that some people don't accept anything short of ripping out the trait trees and reverting to the existing system in their definition of "responding to feedback".
    Cainwen Ciaphas, Captain of Crickhollow, HERO OF MIDDLE EARTH!!!
    I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered! My opinions are my own!

  4. #29
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    Sapience you should really link the new dev diary here.

    Basically the skills are streamlined and made more useful all-round.

  5. #30
    The only thing I am worried about so far with the trait trees is "cookie cutter builds". With the existing system I really enjoy being able to customise my class; pick and choose what traits I want to have, and not have to pick X trait to get Y trait and then finally the Z trait that I actually want. I'm hoping it won't be a case of:

    Burglar A: "I'm red traited with A and B traits in green"

    Burglar B: "Yeah me too!"

    Burglar C: "I'm green traited with A and B traits in red"

    Burglar D: "Wow small world - me too!"

    /shudder

    I hope I'm completely wrong though! - I hope there's enough customisability left and enough "pick and choose" to keep things interesting and varied without carbon copy classes running around everywhere.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapience View Post
    I think someone has been telling you some pretty major falsehoods. So far the trait trees have been revised, adjusted, skills added, skills moved, some skills that were removed have been replaced or brought back, and literally hundreds of other changes to skills and classes since beta began. And more are on the way.

    About the only thing I can say regarding the Trait Trees is that those who are opposed to the very idea should understand that the change to Trait Trees is coming with Update 12, full stop. There are some who don't want to hear that. We know this. You've probably heard from some of them as they've violated their NDA and their commitments as beta players. But those who have taken the fact that trait tress are coming and their role to make them the best they can be seriously, have thus far provided invaluable feedback and led to direct changes to specific trees, skill access, and more and continue to do so.

    There is no "draft" to share as the trees change based on feedback nearly every build (some more than others). In fact we put up a new beta build today that made some changes and we'll soon be putting up another that changes them even more based on beta tester feedback.
    You think wrong. I've heard nothing from anyone about anything covered by the NDA. Truly. Have read the dev diaries and public forums, I know absolutely nothing beyond that about Helms Deep and its beta. And while I'm nervous about trait trees effect on how my main class will feel, not actually an opponent myself. I sort of like change and shaking things up, I'm just nervous about whether the Zen of Captains will be preserved.

    My statement was based on reading many complaints stemming from previous betas once they go open or the release goes live that large numbers of fairly severe bugs/balance issues/exploits/etc were reported in beta and not fixed. And my understanding (being in software development) that big changes rarely are going to come towards the end of a development cycle, and the beta is relatively speaking the end. Tuning yes, small changes, sure. Glad to hear beta feedback is being taken seriously and making it into the product.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazgar View Post
    The only thing I am worried about so far with the trait trees is "cookie cutter builds". With the existing system I really enjoy being able to customise my class; pick and choose what traits I want to have, and not have to pick X trait to get Y trait and then finally the Z trait that I actually want. I'm hoping it won't be a case of:

    Burglar A: "I'm red traited with A and B traits in green"

    Burglar B: "Yeah me too!"

    Burglar C: "I'm green traited with A and B traits in red"

    Burglar D: "Wow small world - me too!"

    /shudder

    I hope I'm completely wrong though! - I hope there's enough customisability left and enough "pick and choose" to keep things interesting and varied without carbon copy classes running around everywhere.
    Look, in the dev diary here: https://www.lotro.com/en/game/articl...ees-helms-deep

    No cookie cutter, hybrid builds will be efficient at a cost, that cost is if you go full into a line you will get more powerful benefits.
    But don't get me wrong there will always be a way, better more efficient of traiting but even that way, with time players will decide which builds are better for something and those that aren't as good, thats how it works.

  8. #33
    Sapience is offline Former Community Manager & Harbinger of Soon
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    Quote Originally Posted by DelgonTheWise View Post
    And my understanding (being in software development) that big changes rarely are going to come towards the end of a development cycle, and the beta is relatively speaking the end. Tuning yes, small changes, sure. Glad to hear beta feedback is being taken seriously and making it into the product.
    Fair enough. Though I can say very honestly there have been a very large number of changes since beta 1 as relates to trait trees. The trees themselves won't be reverted or delayed, which some have made very clear it is, in their opinion, a clear example of our not listening to any feedback despite the hundreds of changes made each round based solely on feedback.

    Being in software development you're probably well aware that in the feedback loop you have a group that always seems to interpret "listen to feedback" as "listen to my personal feedback and not feedback I disagree with." It was true when I worked for a company that made major desk top publishing products, it's true now.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapience View Post
    Being in software development you're probably well aware that in the feedback loop you have a group that always seems to interpret "listen to feedback" as "listen to my personal feedback and not feedback I disagree with." It was true when I worked for a company that made major desk top publishing products, it's true now.
    Curious, feedback should be regarded either it be bad or good, for any respectable company. I wonder if someone said he only values his personal feedback has either:

    • Very Good View
    • Its in denial.
    • Or Both

  10. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Kazgar View Post
    The only thing I am worried about so far with the trait trees is "cookie cutter builds". <snip>
    But you have that now. Walk around Forlaw/Snowborne and look at several characters of the same class, and you are going to see a large number of the same trait builds out there. I experienced, upon reaching raid level, having at least one person tell me that i needed to retrait in x way to be more effective, and confirmed that a bunch of the same class folks around me were setup in the exact same manner.

    I'm not saying the trees are going to be better, as I have reservations as well about changes to the toon I started with. But I just don't see it as making cookie cutter characters any more prevalent then they are today.

  11. #36
    Aye thanks Al and Yulin for the info - and you're right... I'm likely worrying over nothing - I went ahead and pre-ordered anyway, and I'm a lifer - albeit I don't get much time to play anymore, what with work and everything.

    Curious about legendary items though.. just got a nice second ager on my mid-level 63 burg with 6 major / 1 minor legacies (the exact ones I wanted) on it - have it fully upgraded and with the galadhrim scroll (beleriand + orc damage)... so yep, put a bit of time into it to take me as high as possible before I change. Obviously the huge skill revamp will mean legendary items will change too - but how?... will we get to pick the same tier legacies again for the new traits/skills? Bit confused as to what will happen, because this is such a massive overhaul. Sorry probably off topic... yet related.

  12. #37

    Thumbs up

    looking forward to the HD release and Trait tree dropping, as i've said before on kin chat with my kin mates,i am tired of the old system,it ruins the flow when i have to head to town every 2 levels to get new skills, i will enjoy the trait tree so much more and it will give me something to do with characters,taking my time specing them the way i want to play them,i dont really understand the hate sometimes LOTRO gets, its like gamers today are never satsfied its always the same thing "give us changes in the game,its always the same thing" "why are you changing the game,leave it how it is"


    i've been playing since the game went f2p,about a month after that i signed up and have been VIP ever since, im not saying people who pay for the game dont have the right to complain but at least wait til HD releases and give it a shot,
    If you are going to be bad, be bad with purpose, otherwise your just not worth Forgiving


    Damon Salvatore

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazgar View Post
    The only thing I am worried about so far with the trait trees is "cookie cutter builds". With the existing system I really enjoy being able to customise my class; pick and choose what traits I want to have, and not have to pick X trait to get Y trait and then finally the Z trait that I actually want. I'm hoping it won't be a case of:

    Burglar A: "I'm red traited with A and B traits in green"

    Burglar B: "Yeah me too!"

    Burglar C: "I'm green traited with A and B traits in red"

    Burglar D: "Wow small world - me too!"

    /shudder

    I hope I'm completely wrong though! - I hope there's enough customisability left and enough "pick and choose" to keep things interesting and varied without carbon copy classes running around everywhere.
    I actually LoL'ed at this... you really could have summarized your post by saying you hope the the trees aren't like the current trait cookie cutters. Being a burg, I am currently traited red with a & b in blue...

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapience View Post
    There is no "draft" to share as the trees change based on feedback nearly every build (some more than others). In fact we put up a new beta build today that made some changes and we'll soon be putting up another that changes them even more based on beta tester feedback.
    I guess I meant "current draft" or "pre-final", not that there is a singular draft. With the many WoW expansions that I went through, every one of them changed the trait trees and classes. And with every change a pre-final web gui trait selector was provided within the last 1-2 months before the release. Changes were made to the tool as the new beta set changed. My original question was if Turbine would be providing such a tool?

  15. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Seldomblue View Post
    I guess I meant "current draft" or "pre-final", not that there is a singular draft. With the many WoW expansions that I went through, every one of them changed the trait trees and classes. And with every change a pre-final web gui trait selector was provided within the last 1-2 months before the release. Changes were made to the tool as the new beta set changed. My original question was if Turbine would be providing such a tool?
    I may be missing what you are asking for here, but every time Turbine has released information a head of actual release and it changed from what they projected they have been accused of "false advertising", "bait and switch", "Lying", and who knows how many other things. If I were responsible for information release it would be as generic as possible and close to launch as possible.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/032020000000bd0ff/signature.png]Aidus[/charsig]

    "Live and Let Die"

  16. #41
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    Ok, fair enough.

    Well they have already falsely advertised the trait "trees" because they look more like a diagram or flow chart rather than a pine, oak, or maple tree...

  17. #42
    Sapience is offline Former Community Manager & Harbinger of Soon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seldomblue View Post
    Ok, fair enough.

    Well they have already falsely advertised the trait "trees" because they look more like a diagram or flow chart rather than a pine, oak, or maple tree...
    "Trait Flow Chart" just didn't have the same ring to it. Not to mention it's a complete alliteration fail.

  18. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Seldomblue View Post
    Ok, fair enough.

    Well they have already falsely advertised the trait "trees" because they look more like a diagram or flow chart rather than a pine, oak, or maple tree...

    Some trees are very straight in nature with very little in branches or forks. You could think of them as a Palm Tree if it helps!
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/032020000000bd0ff/signature.png]Aidus[/charsig]

    "Live and Let Die"

  19. #44
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    When you have something worth promoting, you promote it.
    When you're selling snake-oil, you hear a lot about it, but never get to see how it performs until you buy it.

    If it's that unfinished a month from launch, I hope you enjoy popcorn whilst watching train wrecks...

    But assuming the re-vamps are wonderful and all - what purpose does it serve in a game where the multiplayer component is continually diminished?
    What is the good of a more effective "role" when there is barely a smidge of content on the horizon that requires more than pasting things in the face?
    Last edited by Southpa; Oct 10 2013 at 10:44 PM.
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  20. #45
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    Battles are group content and HD is launching with group content that players from almost any level can engage in together. That sounds like a big focus on group content to me.

  21. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by hey_dol_merry_dol View Post
    Battles are group content and HD is launching with group content that players from almost any level can engage in together. That sounds like a big focus on group content to me.
    5 instances that can be done solo/duo, one of the above can be done in a 3-man, another can be done 6-man, and 1 can be done 12-man raid. So not really.


    Outside of that I bet that we won't see a trait tree till release or just after they shut down pre-orders.

  22. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by ValcyrVexx View Post
    Outside of that I bet that we won't see a trait tree till release or just after they shut down pre-orders.
    Don't worry it is standard procedure for Turbine to not give this information until NDA is lifed, when it is showed by Beta testers

    Meaning that they do not shown it because they want to hide it, only because they cannot have it ready before. Probably they lift NDA when game is more or less fixed. At that moment all possible "dev diaries" need to be re writen, checked and aproved and they are so late that we already have all information.

    By the way, we will probably have NDA lifted soon (is it normally 1 month before release?) so we will only have to wait 1 or 2 weeks to be flooded by images of the trees and explanations from fellow players.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/22219000000054873/01008/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]
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  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southpa View Post
    When you have something worth promoting, you promote it.
    They promoted LIs 5 months before Moria arrived based on the wishful thinking of an early design, and get to hear about that failure incessantly 4 years later. Talking about PvMP maps too early (before they were certain they could be delivered) meant that they were accused of lying, of breaking promises, etc. Twice. This was just marketing-driven stupidity, and after taking aim at their own feet several times... perhaps they've finally learned the lesson.

    What is the good of a more effective "role" when there is barely a smidge of content on the horizon...
    There are 3 new Epic Battles balanced for groups of various sizes. Seems like people could use their group roles in those. My worry is that if they emphasize "role" too strongly, it will make solo gameplay inflexible and boring. (Yes, I'm sure you think it's boring already, but many of us enjoy it).

    Khafar

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southpa View Post
    When you have something worth promoting, you promote it.
    When you're selling snake-oil, you hear a lot about it, but never get to see how it performs until you buy it.

    If it's that unfinished a month from launch, I hope you enjoy popcorn whilst watching train wrecks...

    But assuming the re-vamps are wonderful and all - what purpose does it serve in a game where the multiplayer component is continually diminished?
    What is the good of a more effective "role" when there is barely a smidge of content on the horizon that requires more than pasting things in the face?
    I wouldn't write the revamps off as "bad" just yet...

    There's still an NDA drop when you find out exactly what they are.... and hopefully that occurs sooner, rather than later.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  25. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Southpa View Post
    When you have something worth promoting, you promote it.
    When you're selling snake-oil, you hear a lot about it, but never get to see how it performs until you buy it.

    If it's that unfinished a month from launch, I hope you enjoy popcorn whilst watching train wrecks...

    But assuming the re-vamps are wonderful and all - what purpose does it serve in a game where the multiplayer component is continually diminished?
    What is the good of a more effective "role" when there is barely a smidge of content on the horizon that requires more than pasting things in the face?


    I would expect alot of people feel this way, I know I do especially the part about the snake oil. They keep being burnt by not saying what they mean and at that point it is false advertising but they are a gaming company and somehow that makes it alright? When beta goes live we will see what the masses say compared to the hand picked few. That will be the true test of how well they did and of course the few weeks after if all the raiders go away again. We will see!
    Mean what you say and say what you mean! If you don't there are always consequences!

 

 
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