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  1. #1
    Sapience is offline Former Community Manager & Harbinger of Soon
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    Developer Diary : Rune-keeper Class Changes in Helm’s Deep

    Greetings, fellow Runekeepers! Working on this class turned out being a tough nut to crack. The Rune-keeper was built to be a good healer and good damage dealer at the same time by swinging from one end to the attunement bar to the other. When we started, we felt it was very important that the swing remain intact. Being able to be a damage dealer and then swing to provide backup healing was our number one priority and so the trees were built in such a way to encourage this play, while making you great at one at the same time.

    http://www.lotro.com/en/game/article...E2%80%99s-deep

  2. #2
    I dont get how you can switch from DPS to healing mid fight, since you will not have access to the healing skills that are locked in the Benediction of Peace line.

    Also who is naming skills these days, first we get "Sic 'em", and now "Bombastic Inspiration"

  3. #3
    So, what I'm getting from this as an RK player:

    1. Attunement is different.
    2. Nothing else has changed significantly, other than tying a lot of skills that were generally available pre-HD to traits once HD is released.

    Is there something else I was supposed to get from this? This is honestly kind of a non-update or, if it's an accurate representation of what to look forward to, somewhat of a disappointment.

    The only new things that were announced here are in the Benediction of Peace line and, while they're good, it didn't particularly give anything enlightening about Solitary Thunder or Cleansing Flame, save that I don't need 9 BA to use Epic Conclusion and that basic skills that used to be given at early levels, like Ceaseless Argument, are now trait-gated. I'm not sure why you'd trait-gate CA, really, but the bottom line is that this didn't really include anything exciting to draw me in.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by sapience View Post
    greetings, fellow runekeepers! Working on this class turned out being a tough nut to crack. The rune-keeper was built to be a good healer and good damage dealer at the same time by swinging from one end to the attunement bar to the other. When we started, we felt it was very important that the swing remain intact. being able to be a damage dealer and then swing to provide backup healing was our number one priority and so the trees were built in such a way to encourage this play, while making you great at one at the same time.

    http://www.lotro.com/en/game/article...e2%80%99s-deep
    Can't believe I had to wait 8 Dev-Diaries for this
    Last edited by Gottapee; Oct 01 2013 at 06:11 PM.

  5. #5
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    Whoops! Someone forgot to edit out the actual info from this Developer Promo. (An explanation of a change, color me shocked, I'd almost given up on bothering to even read these things.)

    (Seriously, can we go back and have a proper Burglar diary now, and Captain, and ...?)
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  6. #6
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    Attunement sounds like it works more like a two-ended Fervour/Focus bar than before. 'With the new changes, Words of Exaltation can be used at any level of healing attunement and the duration of the bubble is increased by the number of healing attunement that is *consumed* when used.'

    I am not thrilled with the idea of using a healing skill and dropping to neutral attunement. What does this remind me of most? Hmm. Codas, maybe?
    Bruuwnor, Dwarf Champion of Arkenstone, Pipeweed and Ale

  7. #7
    From this I get a few things of interest:

    # Runekeeper skills are available for use at any level of attunement.
    It sounds like they made this change because more skills are gated in the trees i.e. less total amount of skills to be used. They needed this change to combat this. Also it makes the class a little easier to play while keeping the difficulty for those who want to max out the output of their cashout skills. I think if the diminishing returns accompanied with for example doing a damage attack while healing attuned is big enough then this can be a change I can cope with because it won't simplify the class.

    # "Attunement felt slow and clunky"
    I have always been able to switch from 9 healing to 9 battle reasonably fast. If I would be able to switch faster it would be a more simple class to play; with more arbitrary decisions because "whatever I do wrong right now won't matter so much because I can fix my attunement fast anyway". On the other hand if I have more skill options available at any given time that ought to add to the class' complexity albeit in a way im not used to. Right now it feels reasonable that I need to be at 9 damage attunement to do a really strong skill. It feels rewarding when I use it because I have worked to get 9 attunement. This feel will be gone with the new system unless they incorporate some clever system that gives away the potency of a skill at any attunement level in a clear way. Not only changing the damage numbers in the skill tooltip but altering for example the animation or skill icon or in any other way that is letting me know the potency of the skill more readily depending on attunement level.

    # More focus on a single role due to the new tree structure
    Yes! Now we possibly don't need to worry about switching attunement level at all because if we are deep in one tree our healing will suck anyway. This means that the whole attunement system is wasted because I will stay at 9 damage or healing even more. But if we indeed find reason to swap attunement it will be the "oh mighty tree" structure layout that will decide if I will be a single role "click to win" character or something really interesting.

    It comes down to how things are implemented that the diary does not tell us wether this class will improve.
    Last edited by Andala_Kanthos; Oct 01 2013 at 04:53 PM.

  8. #8
    Since it will be very easy to reduce your attunement to neutral, what is happening with the legendary skill steady hands

  9. #9
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    My 85 Dwarf RK had several reactions to seeing this dev diary.

    At first he was like this:



    Then, upon reading further, soon turned to this:



    And, ultimately, ended up like this:



    Wiping our attunement by using a skill is not, I repeat, NOT cool. We aren't Champions with a pip meter. You are messing with something that has worked fine since Moria. I just can't imagine that people said... "Yes, please wipe our attunement every time we use a heal, please!"

    I also see some very unwanted skill gating here.

    Inductions also mean that choosing to use healing skills can potentially slow down your damage on your target, making survivability tricky. Going into the healing line and grabbing the Rune of Restoration, however, gives you a Runestone to supplement your healing ability. Placing it at your feet or at the feet of a friend will provide much-welcome healing. Going further into that tree can also net you Epic for the Ages, a powerful single target heal.
    Hmm. It's not like I use my Rune of Restoration EVERY SINGLE BATTLE or anything. Please, feel free to rip it away. I don't really need it. It's not like I'm full yellow line or anything. Oh... wait...

    Re: Epic of the Ages... I take it this also means that the woodworking items which grant instant access to Epic for the Ages and Scathing Mockery are also going to be gone, since this will now be a gated skill. So all the ones I have in my inventory will be... what... just gone come 11/18?

    So, what heals, if any, DO we have left if we are in yellow or red line? Any?
    Last edited by Kaynith; Oct 01 2013 at 05:12 PM.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by cossieuk View Post
    I dont get how you can switch from DPS to healing mid fight, since you will not have access to the healing skills that are locked in the Benediction of Peace line.
    Presumably there will still be some healing skills available initially, with others accessible early in the BoP line.

    Quote Originally Posted by cossieuk View Post
    Also who is naming skills these days, first we get "Sic 'em", and now "Bombastic Inspiration"
    Actually, I like this name and think it is in-keeping with the names of other RK skills.

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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serisan View Post
    The only new things that were announced here are in the Benediction of Peace line and, while they're good, it didn't particularly give anything enlightening about Solitary Thunder or Cleansing Flame, save that I don't need 9 BA to use Epic Conclusion and that basic skills that used to be given at early levels, like Ceaseless Argument, are now trait-gated. I'm not sure why you'd trait-gate CA, really, but the bottom line is that this didn't really include anything exciting to draw me in.
    I don't know about you, but the dev diary did suggest we're getting a slew of new Runestones, depending on how we trait.

    -Bel
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  12. #12
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    Soloing as this line means you will have tons of survivability, but you might want to pick up damage traits from the other lines to speed up your fights. For example, investing into Solitary Thunder will give you immediate access to Ceaseless Argument; a single target instant cast lightning attack. Investing further will even grant you a runestone the Rune-keeper place at range that deals damage and stuns any enemy around it after a few seconds.
    Ceaseless argument is no longer a base skill? So I now have to pay for a skill that I've been using since what... level 6? Hmm...

    Whoa.. wait. A damage dealing runestone that stuns? Now where have I seen one of those before? Oh yea, that's right. In the game I don't play anymore because they ruined it.

    Gee, that sounds an awful lot like WoW Shaman totems to me. Have I ever mentioned that I hated Shamans when I played WoW. Loathed beyond all logical explanation even?

    I can't help but feel you've turned my highest level character into a Dwarf Shammy. If I wanted a Dwarf Shammy, I'd be paying Blizzard and buying THEIR expansions instead. Bad devs! No soup for you!
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  13. #13
    It seems to me that all anyone wants to do is b**** and complain about things before they even show up. People asked for some kind of idea as to what the classes will be like in HD. The devs are at least nice enough to give some kind of feedback, and all you want to do is fuss about things.

    Grow up !!!!!!!!!

    If you are so unsatisfied with how things are being done or about how things may come out, you can always leave. No one is holding you here against your will.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madmanthief View Post
    It seems to me that all anyone wants to do is b**** and complain about things before they even show up. People asked for some kind of idea as to what the classes will be like in HD. The devs are at least nice enough to give some kind of feedback, and all you want to do is fuss about things.

    Grow up !!!!!!!!!

    If you are so unsatisfied with how things are being done or about how things may come out, you can always leave. No one is holding you here against your will.
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  15. #15
    And just what do you think all your whining about things you can't change is gonna do ?

    It's a real simple concept, well for most people it is, if you don't like the way things are going then leave.

  16. #16
    I was hoping that lightning line will be less critt dependant and the damage will be fixed because now, as we are aware, the Solitary Thunder line is not even half close as the Cleansing Flame, even that i was lightning RK since level 1. Instead we get shorter range and nothing about damage. So no love for this line. Shame, was so good in true raids where you was not able to AoE.
    Fire line it seem will became even better as dps since we get: bigger range, more AoE and ... at the end, even more AoE. That is not bad, but maybe too much love for Cleansing Flame from devs?
    And about healing line (that is why i leveled an RK), nothing new it seems.
    "They also have access to powerful Area Effect heals" hehe, if you can say that about the lousy old single AoE heal mixed between Rousing words and the brick. Our Fate’s Entwined Runestone new skill (I hope is not our good old Our Fates Entwined) re-directs 60% of all damage directly to itself ... well iirc the runestone had like 3k morale so i dont think will help a lot if we remember that an average toon have now around 10k morale, and that is at lvl 85.

    About attunement, I quess that we will not need enamels anymore ...

    Very sceptical about changes. I hope they will not mess the healing/dpsing and it will be scaled well relating the new attunement system. Can wait for warden dev )
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  17. #17
    Solitary Thunder skills are already 20m and Cleansing Flame is already 30m. Nothing is said about it getting shorter. The only thing I would like to be able to do is fire Epic Conclusion on the move.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by andracy View Post
    I was hoping that lightning line will be less critt dependant and the damage will be fixed because now, as we are aware, the Solitary Thunder line is not even half close as the Cleansing Flame, even that i was lightning RK since level 1. Instead we get shorter range and nothing about damage. So no love for this line. Shame, was so good in true raids where you was not able to AoE.
    Fire line it seem will became even better as dps since we get: bigger range, more AoE and ... at the end, even more AoE. That is not bad, but maybe too much love for Cleansing Flame from devs?
    And about healing line (that is why i leveled an RK), nothing new it seems.
    "They also have access to powerful Area Effect heals" hehe, if you can say that about the lousy old single AoE heal mixed between Rousing words and the brick. Our Fate’s Entwined Runestone new skill (I hope is not our good old Our Fates Entwined) re-directs 60% of all damage directly to itself ... well iirc the runestone had like 3k morale so i dont think will help a lot if we remember that an average toon have now around 10k morale, and that is at lvl 85.

    About attunement, I quess that we will not need enamels anymore ...

    Very sceptical about changes. I hope they will not mess the healing/dpsing and it will be scaled well relating the new attunement system. Can wait for warden dev )
    IMO crit dependency made Solitary Thunder fun and I believe they are going for it intentionally. I wish to see more crit dependency on it! I am fine with the possible fact that fire runekeepers do more damage in ideal conditions like boss fights with lots of morale to burn down. The devdiary doesn't say much at all I think, so not much can I say how damage will be changed nor should other people. At the best we can make good assumptions off what the devdiary actually says, but it is well written, I like Jinjaah's positive attitude

  19. #19
    Time to completely re-learn how to play the class, sounds like...

    Quote Originally Posted by Madmanthief View Post
    if you don't like the way things are going then leave.
    Sure thing. Which other LotR-themed MMOs would you suggest I try out?

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andala_Kanthos View Post
    # "Attunement felt slow and clunky"
    I have always been able to switch from 9 healing to 9 battle reasonably fast. If I would be able to switch faster it would be a more simple class to play; with more arbitrary decisions because "whatever I do wrong right now won't matter so much because I can fix my attunement fast anyway". On the other hand if I have more skill options available at any given time that ought to add to the class' complexity albeit in a way im not used to. Right now it feels reasonable that I need to be at 9 damage attunement to do a really strong skill. It feels rewarding when I use it because I have worked to get 9 attunement. This feel will be gone with the new system unless they incorporate some clever system that gives away the potency of a skill at any attunement level in a clear way. Not only changing the damage numbers in the skill tooltip but altering for example the animation or skill icon or in any other way that is letting me know the potency of the skill more readily depending on attunement level.
    It appears that I'm not the only one who doesn't use the various Enamels which a scholar can provide.

    I've always found it "fast enough" to switch from Healing to Battle ... switching the other way round on a timely basis, however, required either Steady Hands or the Enamels... unless you were in the middle of a battle and could spam heals. i.e. it was much harder to switch when solo.
    Last edited by Valamar; Oct 02 2013 at 12:56 PM. Reason: Wrong forum
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madmanthief View Post
    It seems to me that all anyone wants to do is b**** and complain about things before they even show up. People asked for some kind of idea as to what the classes will be like in HD. The devs are at least nice enough to give some kind of feedback, and all you want to do is fuss about things.
    Actually they aren't "nice enough", they are paid, by us, the customers.

    Grow up !!!!!!!!!
    And recognize transactional relationships between suppliers and patrons? ;-)

    If you are so unsatisfied with how things are being done or about how things may come out, you can always leave. No one is holding you here against your will.
    Au contraire, Turbine devised a toilet paper system such that many have significant investments here. Leaving might be costly. Also, although Lotro used to be a sophisticated MMO design, it appears they are making it like what other MMOs used to be like. So where might one go to find a product with the flexibility like Lotro currently has pray tell? (rhetorical question)

    Quote Originally Posted by Madmanthief View Post
    And just what do you think all your whining about things you can't change is gonna do ?
    Actually, one of the hardest things for a company to do is learn why they lose customers. Nobody is honest in "exit interviews" and the like, they say either what they want to get off their chest so they feel better, or they say what they believe others "should" hear. Before it gets to that point, the mature thing to do is communicate, share perspectives, express feelings, point out issues; sure, it's too late in this process to make sweeping changes, but Turbine has been good in the past in undoing things that wreaked havoc in the game.

    It's a real simple concept, well for most people it is, if you don't like the way things are going then leave.
    That's a horrible action to take, "I'm going to take my ball and go home", nobody learns if you just bail and give up. People/organizations learn and grow from communicating, making mistakes, incorporating feedback, revising and changing things, ending up with a system beyond original expectations. Growth comes from changing for the better. Leaving results in stagnation and repeating the same mistakes over and over.

    The companies I've run have improved when I've gotten negative feedback. They didn't improve when I got good, little, or no feedback. It's disrespectful to not share information you have with another who might benefit from it. It's also a sign of caring to share. Any relationship, be it professional, superficial, personal, or intimate, benefits from clear, open, frank communication. When that doesn't happen from the other party, then you know something is wrong, and they don't care, are no longer invested in the relationship, and it's too late. You can't afford to get to that stage in business, or you are already finished.

    You might be sick of reading all the complaints, in which case you might be advised to take your own advice and stop reading. ;-) But please respect that others might care more and are taking their time to share their experience and knowledge--a very precious resource that should be celebrated, not squandered or minimized.

    The 90-9-1 rule indicates that only 1% of community users tend to initiate conversation, another 9% will actively respond, while 90% of people feel the same way, but don't express it. So your discouraging post represents probably ten people who don't want to see more complaints, but all the complaining posts represent far more people who want the game to improve, rather than be degraded.

    So please, honor their contributions, or perhaps take some of your own medicine? ;-) (And be glad there's some dialog at least, the scary part is how few responses these diaries have gotten compared to previous years.)
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  22. #22
    You can have your opinion, I'm not saying you can't.

    All I'm saying is give it a chance. There are plenty of things about the other class changes I don't like but at least I'm going to try out these new changes when it goes live.

    Has it occured to you that the reason they are doing this, like other changes made in the past, has to do with attracting the crowd that is used to this kind of system. Bring in more players for more money ?

  23. #23
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    So.... basically,


    Turhine are completely dropping ALL PRETENSE of lore appropriateness and the concept that RKs are masters of word and sign, using these tools to invoke the very real sensations of things that aren't physically happening except to those affected... which is a lore-friendly and completely sound concept, and which has always been the reasoning underneath what we see....

    ... In favour of saying that RKs are now -LITERALLY- more magically overt and potent than Gandalf ever was. Good going Turbine. Considering that Middle-earth Enterprises have withdrawn permissions from pretty much every other video-game in existence based on lore-breach and lore disrespect, and that LotRO is now, in fact, the only video-game that has active licence. Turbine has it until 2014 now, yes, but if THESE are the changes that are being made, it seems highly unlikely that middle-earth enterprises will renew it come that time, if they don't withdraw it beforehand. They're now owned by Warner... Warner, who say no problems with Battle for middle Earth, or Conquest, and happily allowed Ea and New Line (both of whom it owns) to trample the lore until they had their respective licenses denied.

    Turbine is now the ONLY video-game company that still has permission to work in this domain, and they have it because they have always been very good and highly respectful with the lore. Warner, on the other hand, clearly couldn't give two figs... and have, in fact, been heavily warned by Middle-earth Enterprises in the past. This is just another franchise for them, and they'll happily run it into the ground for a good squeeze of cash, and then move on, and then No-One will have permission to work in this domain.

    What I've seen and read of this update so far, what you've told us, reeks progressively more of non-turbine influence geared towards fast money and player movement, with absolute disregard to setting and lore as an important thing. It might generate a highly successful player turn over and margin for a while, but that doesn't mean it won't ultimately cause the death of the game. Having the license pulled over lore trampling will do that no matter how much profit you're making.

    But I was responding the the RK Diary... where was I...

    Let's move on to attunement. The concept that the play of words and atmosphere requires proper build-up to really take effect and be potent; the concept that the more into rhythm and flow the word-smith gets the more fierce or powerful effects they can truly evoke... the idea that, when fully invested into the atmospherics of harsh words, the arts of soothing are not going to come easily, and that the rk must balance out and re-steep themselves into a different manner and telling-cant to do that... this is the concept of what attunement represents. And you've just turned it into focus. Skills that can be used at any time, while attunement is built up and -spent- goes fiercely against the grain of the entire concept of attunement itself.

    Keeping the swing intact: The swing is supposed to BE a choice, and an investment. That's the whole point. It doesn't sound like you've kept the swing intact at all; it sounds like you've abolished it entirely, because swinging itself will take less than a second or two, and have no consequence or required investment. Then, there's the problem of available skills: there seems little point in trying to swing one way or the other when you won't have enough skills to be even marginally useful in that other role any way. You say, "Oh, but you can fix that by investing in the other tree too!" Except that's a very flawed supposition to being with. For a levelling RK to be able to dps at an appropriate level to other main dps, they are, presumably, going to need to specialise just as much, which means, while levelling, no room for divergence. Same for healing; if they are to be able to primary heal at the same level as another main healer, while levelling, that same problem occurs. They might be able to swing their attunement in a heartbeat, but there'll be no point since they likely won't have any of the major attunement-affected skills available on the other side, by the sounds of what I'm reading.. and attunement itself, aside from those special effects, sounds like it only really can have an affect at all on the direction you picked for specialising.

    So, lore-appropriateness pretences, ditched - check
    The very basic CONCEPT of what attunement is and represents, ditched - check
    The choices inherent in possessing mid-combat flexibility, ditched - check
    Actual mid-combat flexibility, more or less ditched -check

    So... exactly in what way are RKs Benefiting?
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  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Valamar View Post
    I just brought my 85 RK over to Bullroarer for B2, and did not spend a lot of time "in personal combat." The little combat I did perform was mounted.... and for Mounted Combat, the Trait Tree has no impact!

    .

    I don't think this post is NDA correct.... unless council members are exempt from rules...
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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harla View Post
    So.... basically,


    Turhine are completely dropping ALL PRETENSE of lore appropriateness and the concept that RKs are masters of word and sign, using these tools to invoke the very real sensations of things that aren't physically happening except to those affected... which is a lore-friendly and completely sound concept, and which has always been the reasoning underneath what we see....

    ... In favour of saying that RKs are now -LITERALLY- more magically overt and potent than Gandalf ever was. Good going Turbine. Considering that Middle-earth Enterprises have withdrawn permissions from pretty much every other video-game in existence based on lore-breach and lore disrespect, and that LotRO is now, in fact, the only video-game that has active licence. Turbine has it until 2014 now, yes, but if THESE are the changes that are being made, it seems highly unlikely that middle-earth enterprises will renew it come that time, if they don't withdraw it beforehand. They're now owned by Warner... Warner, who say no problems with Battle for middle Earth, or Conquest, and happily allowed Ea and New Line (both of whom it owns) to trample the lore until they had their respective licenses denied.

    Turbine is now the ONLY video-game company that still has permission to work in this domain, and they have it because they have always been very good and highly respectful with the lore. Warner, on the other hand, clearly couldn't give two figs... and have, in fact, been heavily warned by Middle-earth Enterprises in the past. This is just another franchise for them, and they'll happily run it into the ground for a good squeeze of cash, and then move on, and then No-One will have permission to work in this domain.

    What I've seen and read of this update so far, what you've told us, reeks progressively more of non-turbine influence geared towards fast money and player movement, with absolute disregard to setting and lore as an important thing. It might generate a highly successful player turn over and margin for a while, but that doesn't mean it won't ultimately cause the death of the game. Having the license pulled over lore trampling will do that no matter how much profit you're making.

    But I was responding the the RK Diary... where was I...

    Let's move on to attunement. The concept that the play of words and atmosphere requires proper build-up to really take effect and be potent; the concept that the more into rhythm and flow the word-smith gets the more fierce or powerful effects they can truly evoke... the idea that, when fully invested into the atmospherics of harsh words, the arts of soothing are not going to come easily, and that the rk must balance out and re-steep themselves into a different manner and telling-cant to do that... this is the concept of what attunement represents. And you've just turned it into focus. Skills that can be used at any time, while attunement is built up and -spent- goes fiercely against the grain of the entire concept of attunement itself.

    Keeping the swing intact: The swing is supposed to BE a choice, and an investment. That's the whole point. It doesn't sound like you've kept the swing intact at all; it sounds like you've abolished it entirely, because swinging itself will take less than a second or two, and have no consequence or required investment. Then, there's the problem of available skills: there seems little point in trying to swing one way or the other when you won't have enough skills to be even marginally useful in that other role any way. You say, "Oh, but you can fix that by investing in the other tree too!" Except that's a very flawed supposition to being with. For a levelling RK to be able to dps at an appropriate level to other main dps, they are, presumably, going to need to specialise just as much, which means, while levelling, no room for divergence. Same for healing; if they are to be able to primary heal at the same level as another main healer, while levelling, that same problem occurs. They might be able to swing their attunement in a heartbeat, but there'll be no point since they likely won't have any of the major attunement-affected skills available on the other side, by the sounds of what I'm reading.. and attunement itself, aside from those special effects, sounds like it only really can have an affect at all on the direction you picked for specialising.

    So, lore-appropriateness pretences, ditched - check
    The very basic CONCEPT of what attunement is and represents, ditched - check
    The choices inherent in possessing mid-combat flexibility, ditched - check
    Actual mid-combat flexibility, more or less ditched -check

    So... exactly in what way are RKs Benefiting?
    Just a point about Middle-Earth Enterprises.
    They do not care about the Lore to that extent.
    They are mostly concerned with Turbine upholding their end of the license agreement, as in, the payments. As long as Turbine has been paying what they are due to pay MEE, they will not lose the license.
    Furthermore, there was, in the official announcement of the last license extension, confirmation that there was an option for Turbine to extend it to 2017.
    Hir i Meigol Bruinen/High Council Member of the EoI/Of the Exiles of the Hidden City/Meigol Bruinen, Uncle Seregnin's Misguided Children, Curse the name of Maeglin, the Treacherous Villain, forever, may he rot in the Halls of Mandos for all time....
    Player Councillor. http://www.swtor.com/r/XWNQXP is my refer-a-friend link for SWTOR.

 

 
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