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  1. #1

    Lotro Raiding Community Turn For The Better or The Worse

    This thread is for the hopes of the raiding community and for the developers to see that the raiding community and other end game things are dieing! I want the developers to join in and hear out what the community wants! The game interest level in general for raids in high amongst a lot of people in the lotro community. We need to go over key points on what actually went wrong and what went right with the raids this update and in hopes to get them fix! I understand that the changes are done but this is for the future of the game! In reality the people pay for the game and when a WHOLE group is not happy with changes what do they expect but complaints!

    First Loot System!

    The idea on universal loot brought any form of loot system to the ground for the most part for the exceptions of the trade able items first ages etc for of course the tier 2 challenge raids! The idea for the universal loot is not necessary a bad one but in most of peoples opinions it should exclude that type of system for raids! I know for a fact that type of computer work is easy and can be done fast! Keep the system for land mobs and looting not instances and raids! From experience and many others running old content for example school for 500 times and not getting a single item is not a grind but unbearable slave work! The roll/pass system was awesome and the master loot system and I will give it my all to bring that back for raids and such for the raiding community!

    Also the idea of getting the first ages for the solos in skirmish camps is a good idea for those who like to grind and get in on there own time but for those who like to speed up the process but give the raiders something to look forward to in the end game raids! The best example is raid exclusive loot! Loot that is ONLY attained in the high level raids and such!
    I am not talking about just a stat or two better then crafted gear which is also annoying but improvement to gear for better performance! Just simply a piece that can make a difference. When three raids like smaug erebor and flight have the same loot table whats the point of doing all three! MOST raiders like the Ost dunnoth loot system each wing had there own set of gear and also a guarantee first age for someone in the raid. This is something that is awesome and what most raiders look forward to seeing in a raid. The old system for raid looting in better and most can agree.

    Second Raid difficulty/faulty mechanics

    We all like raids that are actually able to be beaten! I am so serious about this because you guys come out with a raid for example flight that the CHALLENGE is impossible so why even do it! That is another raid that kinships can be doing together rather then theroycrafting away to go around faulty mechanics just like fire and frost.
    Lets go back to orthanc for example fire and frost was not working as attended and still not to this DAY and made a lot of kinships fall apart because the raid was to difficult to accomplish excluding the few who did! Now lets go back to ost dunnoth days the raid was extremely difficult and actually doable! This is simply proven by looking at the raid progression forms! The ratios are a night and day difference! The ost dunnoth raids 100 kins got last boss down while only 30 got saurmon challenge down and now like 3 kins got flight down challenge or maybe not even three! Is there something wrong here or its just me! I just don't see where the developers are going with this and I don't see them answered! I understand making raids is difficult or is it something else I don't know!

    Third upcoming raids

    There are none What NOW? I can go on and on about what went wrong but in the end it seems the community for the players and listening to the people dropped!


    My kin and many others are gonna die off and you know and I would like to be explain why are you losing money over something that is supposed to be part of an mmo! GROUPING AND CHALLENGES
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  2. #2
    One of those 5-6 guys that hates anyone that does group content and wants us all to shut up or leave the game will be along shortly to remind us that Sapience once made an incredibly vague assertion that "Raiders"(whatever that means) and PvPers are single digit minorities that would be far too costly to keep around at this point.
    It's as though these guys actually want there to be less people giving Turbine money.

    The word is out in the larger MMO community that LotRO has now moved to a solo-only format and to not even bother if you want anything even remotely resembling standard End Game content. The Tolkien fans are all already here. It's now time for Turbine to reap the luscious rewards of a dwindling, solo-only playerbase.

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    Sadly, I think it's got to the point where it's just too late to turn around raiding in LotRO - most of the raiders have already quit, and I don't see many coming back for HD (which continues the trend of no raid content at launch). For example, Flight CM is really quite easy since the nerf (not even close to the difficulty of FF/Saruman HM in Orthanc). The only reason so few people have completed it is that the majority of raiding kins have either disbanded or gone on hiatus. Turbine has made it clear that the game now caters almost exclusively to solo/casual players, nothing we say is going to change that.
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  4. #4
    Its just really dis heartening because I really love this game but they push us away and there's absolutely nothing they want to do with us!
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shane412 View Post
    This thread is for the hopes of the raiding community and for the developers to see that the raiding community and other end game things are dieing! I want the developers to join in and hear out what the community wants! The game interest level in general for raids in high amongst a lot of people in the lotro community.

    I agree with most you said but this just isnt true.. Turbine has all the data and it seems that the data shows that overall interest in raids isnt really that high... Once a company makes a decision like this there is no turning back.. Its a drain on resources for them especially now that the game is 7 years old...

    Is Lotro dying? OFC it is. Like all other products it has its life cycle.. Unfortunately we are past the games peak... A retiree can no longer play pro-football...

    I suggest you try to enjoy what ever you get during the next few years.. And as i say to all my disappointed raid buddies: "we will always have OD" (oh the memories ..)
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  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by zagreb000 View Post
    I agree with most you said but this just isnt true.. Turbine has all the data and it seems that the data shows that overall interest in raids isnt really that high... Once a company makes a decision like this there is no turning back.. Its a drain on resources for them especially now that the game is 7 years old...

    Is Lotro dying? OFC it is. Like all other products it has its life cycle.. Unfortunately we are past the games peak... A retiree can no longer play pro-football...

    I suggest you try to enjoy what ever you get during the next few years.. And as i say to all my disappointed raid buddies: "we will always have OD" (oh the memories ..)


    I understand I understand I really meant used to be and I think if they tried in which they wont! They could easily revive it! Moria cluster was the BEST with all the variety of raids!
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shane412 View Post
    I understand I understand I really meant used to be and I think if they tried in which they wont! They could easily revive it! Moria cluster was the BEST with all the variety of raids!
    For me lvl 65 was the glory days.. All the moria instances and raids were still challenging.. You had plenty raids to chose from like DN, vile maw, turtle (lol), BG and then OD came in the update... I was raiding like crazy, even pulling off pugs... As i said, you will always have the memories linking you to this game and people you played with.. The "omg, omg, omg"! in chat the first time we saw the Balrog in Fear is something i wont forget.

    But they cant revive it.. At the end of the day, Lotro is just a business , and it seems, raids are an unnecessary expenditure and not profitable to them.. I understand that...
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    Quote Originally Posted by zagreb000 View Post
    ...
    But they cant revive it.. At the end of the day, Lotro is just a business , and it seems, raids are an unnecessary expenditure and not profitable to them.. I understand that...
    This is so true it makes me sad. As i consider myself a raider, i have to face a simple fact: Raiding days are over. I would like to see the glory of raids restored to its former beauty, but i know this might never happen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarenius View Post
    Sadly, I think it's got to the point where it's just too late to turn around raiding in LotRO - most of the raiders have already quit, and I don't see many coming back for HD (which continues the trend of no raid content at launch). For example, Flight CM is really quite easy since the nerf (not even close to the difficulty of FF/Saruman HM in Orthanc). The only reason so few people have completed it is that the majority of raiding kins have either disbanded or gone on hiatus. Turbine has made it clear that the game now caters almost exclusively to solo/casual players, nothing we say is going to change that.
    It's the lag with summoners spawned wave that makes it so hard. 5 seconds lag almost with every wave, and boom. Tank is at 30% morale and close to death as he has ever been.

    P.S. Saruman challenge is imho one of the easiest in the Tower.

  10. #10
    I'd like to make a point on the argument that raiders make a single digit number of the player population. We don't know how that number is counted and I would bet, that this number increases significantly when you compare the players that never set a foot in a 12 or more person raid with people that did.

    On my server, Anduin, I would estimate that the majority of players in glff do or did occasionally raid, probably way more than 50%. On the other side there is the player population that doesn't use glff. What would you guess how many those are? Most probably it depends on the time you are looking at. But I would estimate that on our server the ration glff players to non-glff players would be nearer at the 50:50 spot than at 10:90.
    So I think that the single digit number of raiders is underestimated if you want to make a point on the value of raids to the community.

    And there's another side besides the numbers - a more important side, I think. This was also mentioned before in such discussions. I think that if we look at the player interaction with other players, and that's what this mmorpg is about, isn't it?, then the value of raids would raise even more, to my opinion. I would go as far as to say that raids have a certain positive impact on the dynamics of the community on a server. I see kin raids, raidgroups, pickup raids, cross kin raids on my server and relationships form out of those, that are a significant part of the server community. I imagine that player interaction would be poorer if at highest 6 players could meet for a 6-man instance and when there would be no 12-man raids.

    As a final point: It always made sense to me, that the way a player would play this game would be that he starts as a soloer in a mmorpg and if he wants to group up, he would get his first experiences in 3 or 6-man instances with players he met or with kin-members when he joined a kin. And as time goes on and he gets more experienced in group play, he would like to learn new aspects of group play and therefore start to raid in 12-man raids on tier 1, to learn those aspects that are important to grouping in the raid situations.
    This was the way I grew into this game up to the point where I consider myself now as a tier 2 raider, besides the other aspects of the game I play with too.
    If I remember right, such a path was once also mentioned in a dev-diary, but I can't say anymore which one that was. Perhaps one that talked on the Isengard-Instances.


    As some sidenotes:

    I'm sorry if I just mentioned what others said before, I didn't read the whole discussion.

    I didn't talk about big battles as the next new content. I'm curious how their impact on the player-player interactions on my server will be, and I look forward to find out and find my place inside it. I also have some concerns that have been mentioned in other threads in the last months, but this is not relevant to what I wanted to say.

    As a raider I try to withstand the changes that reduce the raiding aspect of the game as long as I can (whether they come from the developer side or the player side), because that is what I learned to like the most in this game and I'm not yet there where I could say, I have beaten every raid challenge to death (regardless how much easier Erebor challenges are compared to Orthanc or other past challenges)

    As you could guess from my server Anduin, I don't natively speak English and I'm sorry for errors in my writing.
    Last edited by Mirthan; Sep 17 2013 at 05:01 AM.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeSO View Post
    It's the lag with summoners spawned wave that makes it so hard. 5 seconds lag almost with every wave, and boom. Tank is at 30% morale and close to death as he has ever been.

    P.S. Saruman challenge is imho one of the easiest in the Tower.
    FF & Saruman were the hardest challenges in Orthanc (with FF being harder than Saruman, in my opinion). There's not really any debate to be had about that, just look at the number of kins that completed the other 3 challenges against the number of kins that completed those 2.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shane412 View Post
    Also the idea of getting the first ages for the solos in skirmish camps is a good idea for those who like to grind and get in on there own time but for those who like to speed up the process but give the raiders something to look forward to in the end game raids! The best example is raid exclusive loot! Loot that is ONLY attained in the high level raids and such!
    I am not talking about just a stat or two better then crafted gear which is also annoying but improvement to gear for better performance! Just simply a piece that can make a difference. When three raids like smaug erebor and flight have the same loot table whats the point of doing all three! MOST raiders like the Ost dunnoth loot system each wing had there own set of gear and also a guarantee first age for someone in the raid. This is something that is awesome and what most raiders look forward to seeing in a raid. The old system for raid looting in better and most can agree.
    Yeah yeah soloer blah blah. You know i'd really love to support the raiders in getting more challenging raids but as long as the superior loot is a must criteria in every post about it, i will not. I have about as much interest in being a second class citizen again as the raiders do.

    Honestly though i'd wait to see how the Epic/Big battles turn out, they have a 12 man setting, sure they might be glorified skirmishes but they might turn out good too.
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  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Tarenius View Post
    FF & Saruman were the hardest challenges in Orthanc (with FF being harder than Saruman, in my opinion). There's not really any debate to be had about that, just look at the number of kins that completed the other 3 challenges against the number of kins that completed those 2.
    Agreed. I made this chart a while back to estimate what First Ages should cost, but you can see with the red dots how many kins posted completions of each boss on-level.

    To the OP, sorry dogg. It really does feel like the train has left the station. I hope your kin can stick together in a new game. Our kin has mostly gravitated to TOR though some have ended up over in RIFT. It blows that we didn't all end up in the same place.

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    Complete the daily Hytbold craft instances is more important than complete Erebor T2C once you have done all t2. What is the motivation to do the challenge? I enjoy the new raids, but I would like to have something that motivate players to complete t2 and t2c. Since you can get Eder in the Skirmish Camp...

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Thorwyn99 View Post
    Yeah yeah soloer blah blah. You know i'd really love to support the raiders in getting more challenging raids but as long as the superior loot is a must criteria in every post about it, i will not. I have about as much interest in being a second class citizen again as the raiders do.

    Honestly though i'd wait to see how the Epic/Big battles turn out, they have a 12 man setting, sure they might be glorified skirmishes but they might turn out good too.

    As part of an active raiding kin who completed all 3 Erebor challenges (NA server first on flight challenge) I will say it took us over 2 months of active attempts before we discovered the game mechanic that let us complete flight challenge.......so I don't believe the challenge was broken, I think it was working exactly as intended- though.....I will say more kins would have completed if not for the horrendous lag. I can also say the loot is just the carrot - the reward is successfully completing the most challenging content available as a group.

    I had held out hope that the big battles might turn into a new/fun/challenging way to continue end-game raiding. I am a big believer that everyone - no matter skill level or playstyle - should have an opportunity to do end game challenges and end game loot- the harder the challenge the better the reward. The idea of rewarding by number of objectives completed, using tactics and stategies was interesting .....................until I read that a level 10 could get a top reward (platinum) according to how much they contributed. As raiders we try to get the most out of our toons, we run instances for the best gear, test rotations, work out and execute strategies and when they fail.......come up with another and do it all again, until we succeed. The thought that a level 10 could get the same reward is meh.
    Last edited by Lost0711; Sep 18 2013 at 12:42 PM.
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    At this point, it's as simple as knowing where the money is coming from. The fact of the matter is, it's not the raiders spending thousands of Turbine points on warsteed cosmetics and pretty cloaks. The mindset of a raider is to go into endgame content and prove his worth by doing things other people can't do. We want to earn our shinies because they show what we've done, and we can be proud of that. Anyone can pull out a credit card and by 5000 tp worth of cosmetics; not just anyone can get a Jeweled Bell, Baingrist or Steed of the Dale-Lands. Unfortunately, Warner Brothers doesn't earn money from us beating content- it gets money from those people with their warsteeds and pretty cloaks. It's not the devs' faults that they're told to do what will get WB the most money. And the sad reality is, raiding neither draws in a huge player base nor necessarily causes players to buy stuff from the store any more than any other aspect of the game. So we can go on wishing for a new Rift, DN, BG, OD or even ToO all we want, but until someone figures out a way for it to be worth WB devoting resources to, it's not going to happen.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lost0711 View Post
    As part of an active raiding kin who completed all 3 Erebor challenges (NA server first on flight challenge) I will say it took us over 2 months of active attempts before we discovered the game mechanic that let us complete flight challenge.......so I don't believe the challenge was broken, I think it was working exactly as intended- though.....I will say more kins would have completed if not for the horrendous lag. I can also say the loot is just the carrot - the reward is successfully completing the most challenging content available as a group.

    I had held out hope that the big battles might turn into a new/fun/challenging way to continue end-game raiding. I am a big believer that everyone - no matter skill level or playstyle - should have an opportunity to do end game challenges and end game loot- the harder the challenge the better the reward. The idea of rewarding by number of objectives completed, using tactics and stategies was interesting .....................until I read that a level 10 could get a top reward (platinum) according to how much they contributed. As raiders we try to get the most out of our toons, we run instances for the best gear, test rotations, work out and execute strategies and when they fail.......come up with another and do it all again, until we succeed. The thought that a level 10 could get the same reward is meh.
    But upscaled players (10-94) are propably not as powerful as a normal 95-er. I think I have read something like that. So that means that they propably aren't as effective as normal 95-er or even raiders, so less objectives are completed and therefore the chance for the top platinum-reward will decrease - and possibly will decrease the lower your original level is...

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDCass View Post
    At this point, it's as simple as knowing where the money is coming from. The fact of the matter is, it's not the raiders spending thousands of Turbine points on warsteed cosmetics and pretty cloaks. The mindset of a raider is to go into endgame content and prove his worth by doing things other people can't do. We want to earn our shinies because they show what we've done, and we can be proud of that. Anyone can pull out a credit card and by 5000 tp worth of cosmetics; not just anyone can get a Jeweled Bell, Baingrist or Steed of the Dale-Lands. Unfortunately, Warner Brothers doesn't earn money from us beating content- it gets money from those people with their warsteeds and pretty cloaks. It's not the devs' faults that they're told to do what will get WB the most money. And the sad reality is, raiding neither draws in a huge player base nor necessarily causes players to buy stuff from the store any more than any other aspect of the game. So we can go on wishing for a new Rift, DN, BG, OD or even ToO all we want, but until someone figures out a way for it to be worth WB devoting resources to, it's not going to happen.
    I love to raid, but I've also bought 5 horses and other horse skin and cosmetic so far, beside expansion of course. I also tried to drag some other people try out this game, and some of them bought things too. But if all my kins and friend left, and no more raid to expect for fun in the weekend, I dont think I'd continue to play and buy stuffs and dragging people (what if they ask me how the endgame is? Its a farm fest, yes, you have to pay hundreds buck to buy expansions, just to end with a farm fest. And there is no fun in farming. I couldnt lie to them.)


    The bosses of WB ask for the number of people who step into raid, the # of people who beat it. The among of money those player has paid. And woala: "too few, why do we care about them again?" Maybe they didnt think further about the game. Their number maybe few, but they also pay their part, and more importance, they are the one of backbone of the community (ther other was the role-player leader, who form roleplaying even like the weathertop). They have knowledge about the game. They teach newbie. They form and lead group, pvp and pve (yeah, group, 3 and 6 man, not just raid). They bring more "long-term" players, who might pay hundreds of dolars to buy expansion and other stuffs, not people just try out the game, spend a few buck for riding skills and 1 or 2 quest packs. And with more and more new games come out, how long a >7 years old game like LOTRO can expect to attract more new face. Right now, when my friend ask: "how much it cost to play LOTRO". I say: "uh...eh... about $100 to buy expansion and $15 to subs/month to unlock stuffs. Or else, you cannot play group content that most of people playing now. But hey, you can farm TP ingame, it's just took... a little... patience." And they say: "I heard RIFT are totally free to play, all their dungeons are free. I think i might try it out."

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lost0711 View Post
    I had held out hope that the big battles might turn into a new/fun/challenging way to continue end-game raiding. I am a big believer that everyone - no matter skill level or playstyle - should have an opportunity to do end game challenges and end game loot- the harder the challenge the better the reward. The idea of rewarding by number of objectives completed, using tactics and stategies was interesting .....................until I read that a level 10 could get a top reward (platinum) according to how much they contributed. As raiders we try to get the most out of our toons, we run instances for the best gear, test rotations, work out and execute strategies and when they fail.......come up with another and do it all again, until we succeed. The thought that a level 10 could get the same reward is meh.
    Well i guess that's the part i don't understand as long as i can get my reward the way i want it's completely irrelevant to me how someone else gets his. And if he got his level 95 gold item being level 10, stumbling through the woods totally wasted while he was actually looking for his misplaced pants, so be it, doesn't diminish anything i did.(Not to mention i could be that drunk guy too :P)

    Two things though people assume the platinum for level 10s is probably achieved by doing this that do not actually require gear whichever that might be.
    And second a level 10 will only get level appropriate gear so if he's level 10 he'd get a level 10 item, not sure about titles or cosmetics if there is any.

    According to the CSTM interview we will get more info on the battles in the very near future so i hope it's still in september.
    Last edited by Thorwyn99; Sep 19 2013 at 04:56 AM.
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    we will have more ppl running instances, but since they don't have to gear up for them they will be fed up with the game faster, why would i run instances if i don't need the equipment?
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    I'm from elendilmir and it used to be a server filled with top tier raiding kins. However, due to the lack of content, raiding has been almost non existent. My old kin, for example, has more or less quit the game. They may return for HD. I truly think the only way turbine can cater to raiders is to make an entirely new game. Something along the lines of LOTRO 2.0. It is becoming blatantly obvious that their current system and servers are incapable of running large scale instances. Look at the amount of lag there has been since U11.

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by JDCass View Post
    At this point, it's as simple as knowing where the money is coming from. The fact of the matter is, it's not the raiders spending thousands of Turbine points on warsteed cosmetics and pretty cloaks. The mindset of a raider is to go into endgame content and prove his worth by doing things other people can't do. We want to earn our shinies because they show what we've done, and we can be proud of that. Anyone can pull out a credit card and by 5000 tp worth of cosmetics; not just anyone can get a Jeweled Bell, Baingrist or Steed of the Dale-Lands. Unfortunately, Warner Brothers doesn't earn money from us beating content- it gets money from those people with their warsteeds and pretty cloaks. It's not the devs' faults that they're told to do what will get WB the most money. And the sad reality is, raiding neither draws in a huge player base nor necessarily causes players to buy stuff from the store any more than any other aspect of the game. So we can go on wishing for a new Rift, DN, BG, OD or even ToO all we want, but until someone figures out a way for it to be worth WB devoting resources to, it's not going to happen.
    The turbine store do you honestly think they made more money now then they did when the game was not free to play because I remember in the moria soa days there were over 1200 in glff but now almost less then 100! Give or take people leave the game but that was the purpose and always was the purpose of lotro for social play and grouping they based there game off this and a lot of people loved it but now its soloing but just doesn't seem like there going for making money! To me it seems like they want to dispatch the game asap! Look at other games customer service how they get involve and do events! We used to have events but not as much as anymore ! What is warner brothers doing ? What are there long term motives?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shane412 View Post
    What are there long term motives?
    As one famous economist said:" in the long term we are all dead".....

    What do you consider as long term? 1 year, 5 years? The thing is that players do not understand that from the day of launch companies are already aware of the life cycle of their game... Even though they adjust their plans over time some things remain the same... The change in the MMO market was also anticipated..
    Its silly to say that they are trying to destroy the game.. That would be really bad from the business point of view... And whatever someone will say, business-wise WB and Turbine are good companies... Wb cashes in from the IP every opportunity they get without ever investing in a single game too much resources.. Keeping cost low and returns high... Thats why you have all these average LOTR games.. Nothing excels because they never go all in... And i find that a great strategy.. Now you have the new League of legends rip off with a great IP (they were a bit late on that if you ask me). They are even so careful that they urgently stomped the attempt of some fans trying to create a mod for skyrim... They see Lotr as their cow to milk..

    Same goes for LOTRO.. Revenues will drop after every year, since the game is getting old and losing players (naturally), they reduce their cost by lowering investment keeping their income at a more constant rate..

    Ever wonder why you are getting a new expansion every year? Simply because in the f2p system yearly expansions are the fastest way to get a return on investment... (if they could, they would give you one every 6 months.)

    Its all business..
    [CENTER][URL="http://postimage.org/"][IMG]http://s5.postimg.org/oiz5srzbr/download_1.jpg[/IMG][/URL]


    [COLOR=#ffffff][I][B]Only fools and dead men never change their mind[/B][/I][/COLOR][/CENTER]

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    316
    Agree with a lot of things said here. Unfortunately, the fact of the matter is that the player populations of all playstyles are shrinking, and that includes the raiding population. That's why the new endgame (Big Battles, or is it Epic Battles now?) will incorporate upscaling, giving raiders more players to run instances with. The expansion after Helm's Deep may go back to a traditional instance cluster endgame, but I betchya upscaling will probably return.

  25. #25
    A lot of complain here. And sadly I agree with most of it. Sad thing is we are a witness of some spiral of destruction (propably somebody else noticed that earlier) Turbine is not creating raiding content, becouse there is no big raiding community, there is no raiding community becouse Turbine do not making raiding content.
    Gifford brg // Clodvig mns // Clodas wrd
    Clodburz dfl
    WeRock
    Yes, english is not my native language.

 

 
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