Helm's Deep: A Good Way to Implement Big Battles+Epics

[robbie1435]

Currently, as everyone knows, Turbine will be selling the expansion with the Epic Questline as part of it.

In my opinion, another good way to implement this into the store would be:

Helm's Deep-Road to War Cluster

-Access to the Epic Storyline throughout the Helm's Deep Expansion
-One time usage of the Epic Battles required to complete the Epic Storyline*

*The "One time" usage does not off any rewards(Meaning people will still have to get Epic Battles) and the limit is not taken off until the battle is completed.

This means that players can still complete the epics for a cheaper price(900tp, anyone?), and it might even lead to them eventually buying the expansion, if they like the little taste of Epic Battles provided.

Thank you for your time,
Glorgnorbor

[warthogonfire]

If you think im paying 900TP for the epic line you're gravely mistaken. The whole RoR quest pack costs 1500. I'd at most pay 150 for just the epic (but really if they're gonna do what you suggest they would just make this "Road to War" thing free. The point isn't to make money off of the epic; its to make money off of people buying the xpac or the battle

[robbie1435]

If you think im paying 900TP for the epic line you're gravely mistaken. The whole RoR quest pack costs 1500. I'd at most pay 150 for just the epic (but really if they're gonna do what you suggest they would just make this "Road to War" thing free. The point isn't to make money off of the epic; its to make money off of people buying the xpac or the battle

Good point, and I believe it would be nice if the epic was free, but the fact that Big Battles come into it, they are going to want to charge money... I'd be willing to give 150tp, but know that people will be able to do the big battles, they'll want to charge around 900 tp.

If they do it for 150-300, I'm in!

[whheydt]

If you think im paying 900TP for the epic line you're gravely mistaken. The whole RoR quest pack costs 1500. I'd at most pay 150 for just the epic (but really if they're gonna do what you suggest they would just make this "Road to War" thing free. The point isn't to make money off of the epic; its to make money off of people buying the xpac or the battle

But what was the TP price of RoR quest pack at launch, last year?

[biglebowskki]

I am going to take some heat for saying this but I am going to be honest my opinion here. People who play the game completely free need to stop complaining. IF you really do enjoy grinding TP to pay for things I totally understand that. But People need to understand that in order for this game to continue on, Turbine needs to make money on it. If you really do enjoy this game..support the company and the expansion with cash. You will get the epic story and big battles. I keep my subscription going even when I am taking time off. I want to support this game so I know it will be there when I come back. I am not trying to piss anyone off...I just really want people to support the game $ you spend so much time playing.

[Grimdi]

They'd have to implement a new special case mechanic for this "one-time usage", that cost would likely offset whatever additional revenue is generated by it. If there is additional revenue from such a feature, which I think is questionable at best (as no doubt there will be people buying this instead of the expansion). Note that while buying 100 TP costs us about $1, Turbines revenue from us spending 100 TP is only a fraction of that. Also items with a high TP-price likely have a better TP-to-cash revenue rate than items that cost a smaller TP amount (which can be farmed easily).

[Stubbins]

I am going to take some heat for saying this but I am going to be honest my opinion here. People who play the game completely free need to stop complaining. IF you really do enjoy grinding TP to pay for things I totally understand that. But People need to understand that in order for this game to continue on, Turbine needs to make money on it. If you really do enjoy this game..support the company and the expansion with cash. You will get the epic story and big battles. I keep my subscription going even when I am taking time off. I want to support this game so I know it will be there when I come back. I am not trying to piss anyone off...I just really want people to support the game $ you spend so much time playing.

Good post and I absolutely agree and do the same thing.

[Danchir]

It is hard to imagine that noone in T. got the idea of 'one-time usage' of Epic Battles, for Epic Q purposes. This wouldn't even be a precedent for such an approach.
So, it seems that the inclusion of the Epic Q in the expansion aims to artificially 'increase' its value and justify the $ price. Fair enough, it's kinda business thing.

But then I wouldn't expect separate TP offers for [quests + Epic Q] and [Epic Battles 'cluster']. This would mean they can be, and are, separated. In such a case, not offering the Epic Q for free (as until now) will look a bit weird. Furthermore, if the Epic Q is indeed such an 'incredibly integral part of the Battles' and it will be a 'total crime' to go for it without buying the Battles, then you shouldn't be able to do so in the first place. My guess is - one TP price for HD, everything included. Buying the content in grindable pieces is bad for business. It's time for everything-or-nothing approach, combined with 'boutique offers' such as useless hobby-horse at the price of an expansion, new store mount every month, etc..

[warthogonfire]

Well its not that T didn't get the idea of a one-time use, its that if they ever wanted to do a one-time use BB system then they would make that one time use free. The entire point of not making the epic free is not that you buy the epic, but that you buy the expansion.
And not to turn this into a VIP/freemium thread, but I play premium. I've spent money on this game (even though I've only spent like $35 and already have a character at 80). When I bought RoR (for $20) I bought 1k TP to use. And now, if I was pretty much promised the epic for free I shouldn't have to pay TP for it. If I want to buy the quest pack for however much it is (pretty sure it was still 1500TP at launch for RoR but not completely sure) then I should be able to get the epic for free. As far as I'm concerned I think Turbine has an obligation to do the one-time thing for free

[Al.]

Well its not that T didn't get the idea of a one-time use, its that if they ever wanted to do a one-time use BB system then they would make that one time use free. The entire point of not making the epic free is not that you buy the epic, but that you buy the expansion.
And not to turn this into a VIP/freemium thread, but I play premium. I've spent money on this game (even though I've only spent like $35 and already have a character at 80). When I bought RoR (for $20) I bought 1k TP to use. And now, if I was pretty much promised the epic for free I shouldn't have to pay TP for it. If I want to buy the quest pack for however much it is (pretty sure it was still 1500TP at launch for RoR but not completely sure) then I should be able to get the epic for free. As far as I'm concerned I think Turbine has an obligation to do the one-time thing for free

Yes it should be free. They are just using BB to compensate, bad logic there. Epic Quest Line is a feature that defines F2P model by taking it away you are not honoring the deal with F2Pers and the terms of service.

[Vandervahn]

They'd have to implement a new special case mechanic for this "one-time usage", that cost would likely offset whatever additional revenue is generated by it.

While i dont claim to be in the know, there are enough existing examples to go against this argument.

In Volume II, you can play soloized versions of Nala-Dum and Lumul-Nar. For big Battles, they already HAVE soloized versions existing, so its just a matter of the game granting access rights. Other examples are the Angmar and Isengard epics. There are also really enough one-shot instances and session plays available to discredit the idea that you cant have parallel but incompatible versions of the same spaces because of server load or whatever.

As to the access right handling, the system seems to be pretty seamlessly integrated. When you buy access to an instance in the store, you can virtually instantly enter it. If you lose your VIP, you instantly and seamlessly lose access.

[Danchir]

One other possibility to split the TP offers is: [quest pack] on one hand, and [BB 'cluster' + Epic Q] on the other. Somewhat atypical, but HD is somewhat atypical expansion, I guess.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to see what choices they have prepared for TP purchases of the expansion.

[warthogonfire]

While i dont claim to be in the know, there are enough existing examples to go against this argument.

In Volume II, you can play soloized versions of Nala-Dum and Lumul-Nar. For big Battles, they already HAVE soloized versions existing, so its just a matter of the game granting access rights. Other examples are the Angmar and Isengard epics. There are also really enough one-shot instances and session plays available to discredit the idea that you cant have parallel but incompatible versions of the same spaces because of server load or whatever.

As to the access right handling, the system seems to be pretty seamlessly integrated. When you buy access to an instance in the store, you can virtually instantly enter it. If you lose your VIP, you instantly and seamlessly lose access.

Yes, but remember the end of V2 where there's this whole climax about getting ready to get the mithril axe and fight Gorothul. You end up getting the axe, but wait Gorothul is part of Mirkwood and you don't have to play it/can't if you didn't buy it. I don't get why T cant just do something like this and make the BB a climax that some players just don't take part in. If the epic is going to make you run the same BB many times I get that but if its just at the end T could easily just make the epic free

[Grimdi]

Yes, but remember the end of V2 where there's this whole climax about getting ready to get the mithril axe and fight Gorothul. You end up getting the axe, but wait Gorothul is part of Mirkwood and you don't have to play it/can't if you didn't buy it. I don't get why T cant just do something like this and make the BB a climax that some players just don't take part in.

A dev said a while ago (I think in context of Wildermore Ranger interludes) that people were confused about this "optional quests" setup and reactions were pretty negative back then, so they didn't want to take that route again.
Honestly I don't see the huge issue people make of this. Sure, Turbine had a change of heart and maybe even broke their promise (wasn't around when/if they made that promise, so no judgement from me), but that's hardly the first time they've done this (store p2w advantages, PvMP map, ...). On a practical level, the Epic Story will not catapult you to level 95, so if you want to reach level cap >95% of people will get HD anyway. And if you're in it for the story then you surely want to see the whole story and not see a stop-sign before the defining final (this is quite different from the situation in Vol2 where the rescue of Bori was the defining moment, the fight against Gorothul was just a nice extra in the "extended edition").

[commodore1]

A dev said a while ago (I think in context of Wildermore Ranger interludes) that people were confused about this "optional quests" setup and reactions were pretty negative back then, so they didn't want to take that route again.
Honestly I don't see the huge issue people make of this. Sure, Turbine had a change of heart and maybe even broke their promise (wasn't around when/if they made that promise, so no judgement from me), but that's hardly the first time they've done this (store p2w advantages, PvMP map, ...). On a practical level, the Epic Story will not catapult you to level 95, so if you want to reach level cap >95% of people will get HD anyway. And if you're in it for the story then you surely want to see the whole story and not see a stop-sign before the defining final (this is quite different from the situation in Vol2 where the rescue of Bori was the defining moment, the fight against Gorothul was just a nice extra in the "extended edition").

I'm confused here. Are you saying because they lied once or twice previously and got away with it, it's okay to lie again? Just a question.

[Arphil]

So the big battle is going to cost and will not be the same expansion?

[Elrantiri]

Currently, as everyone knows, Turbine will be selling the expansion with the Epic Questline as part of it.

In my opinion, another good way to implement this into the store would be:

Helm's Deep-Road to War Cluster

-Access to the Epic Storyline throughout the Helm's Deep Expansion
-One time usage of the Epic Battles required to complete the Epic Storyline*

*The "One time" usage does not off any rewards(Meaning people will still have to get Epic Battles) and the limit is not taken off until the battle is completed.

This means that players can still complete the epics for a cheaper price(900tp, anyone?), and it might even lead to them eventually buying the expansion, if they like the little taste of Epic Battles provided.

Thank you for your time,
Glorgnorbor

If Turbine were able to implement the "One Time" usage, dont you think they would have done so and included the Epics for free? I'm 99.99% sure their inability to make such a feature is a primary reason that Epics won't be free in HD.

[Danchir]

If Turbine were able to implement the "One Time" usage, dont you think they would have done so and included the Epics for free? I'm 99.99% sure their inability to make such a feature is a primary reason that Epics won't be free in HD.

I find it a bit naive to point exactly this as the 'primary reason'. Especially since there are other, much better candidates for the position.

[warthogonfire]

A dev said a while ago (I think in context of Wildermore Ranger interludes) that people were confused about this "optional quests" setup and reactions were pretty negative back then, so they didn't want to take that route again.
Honestly I don't see the huge issue people make of this. Sure, Turbine had a change of heart and maybe even broke their promise (wasn't around when/if they made that promise, so no judgement from me), but that's hardly the first time they've done this (store p2w advantages, PvMP map, ...). On a practical level, the Epic Story will not catapult you to level 95, so if you want to reach level cap >95% of people will get HD anyway. And if you're in it for the story then you surely want to see the whole story and not see a stop-sign before the defining final (this is quite different from the situation in Vol2 where the rescue of Bori was the defining moment, the fight against Gorothul was just a nice extra in the "extended edition").

1. Just because reaction to Turbine not giving Gorothul quest to f2p was bad doesn't mean that they have to take everything out, that's really not the answer.
2. Actually, if they had the epic free and I liked the region and the epic story, I might buy the expansion or just the battle. Now I have absolutely no way of knowing whether the expansion is worth buying at all

[Elrantiri]

I find it a bit naive to point exactly this as the 'primary reason'. Especially since there are other, much better candidates for the position.

Not 'the' primary reason, 'a' primary reason. Surely there's other issues to be handled as well.