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Thread: The Nazgul

  1. #1
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    The Nazgul

    In one of the chapters of The Fellowship of the Ring (don't remember which one, but I think it's "The Ring Goes South"), Gandalf says that the Nazgul cannot be destroyed that way (referencing the flooding of the Ford), and that the power of their master is in them, that they stand and fall by him.

    I've always wondered if this meant that the Witch King could theoretically be brought back if Sauron had been given the chance...would that have been possible?
    I've been at the mercy of men just following orders. Never again.

  2. #2
    I don't have the books here with me, but I do recall that when the Witch-King died he let out a blood curdling scream and "his voice was never heard again in that age of the world", or words to that effect. I've always been intrigued by that, and it's always been my belief that if Sauron himself had survived he may have been able to resurrect any of the Nazgul who had fallen in combat. Perhaps Tolkien may have said something more definitive on the subject, but I don't recall ever reading anything.

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    I have nothing to back this up but my opinion.
    But as long as Sauron has the ring that was tied to the Witch King/Nazgul, It very well may be possible to bring him back. But the question would be, How much of his old strength and power of terror would he still have ? Or would he just be a shade of his formal self ?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dawnn View Post
    I have nothing to back this up but my opinion.
    But as long as Sauron has the ring that was tied to the Witch King/Nazgul, It very well may be possible to bring him back. But the question would be, How much of his old strength and power of terror would he still have ? Or would he just be a shade of his formal self ?
    I imagined him being reduced to a shade after he fell - just an evil spirit who couldn't take any sort of form. But the thing is, once the Nine Rings lost their power after the One was destroyed, shouldn't death then claim what was left of him? There'd be nothing keeping him 'neither living nor dead' any more, so it seems to me he ought to become just plain dead. But really, it's up to each of us to imagine whatever suits our imaginations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    I imagined him being reduced to a shade after he fell - just an evil spirit who couldn't take any sort of form. But the thing is, once the Nine Rings lost their power after the One was destroyed, shouldn't death then claim what was left of him? There'd be nothing keeping him 'neither living nor dead' any more, so it seems to me he ought to become just plain dead. But really, it's up to each of us to imagine whatever suits our imaginations.
    My imagination says the WK changed his name to Juan and is now happily married and living somewhere on Tenerife.
    [I]In the sea without lees standeth the Bird of Hermes.
    [/I][I]When all his feathers be from him gone, He standeth still here as a stone.
    Here is now both white and red, And all so the stone to quicken the dead[/I][I].
    The Bird of Hermes is my name, Eating my wings to make me tame.[/I]

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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    I imagined him being reduced to a shade after he fell - just an evil spirit who couldn't take any sort of form. But the thing is, once the Nine Rings lost their power after the One was destroyed, shouldn't death then claim what was left of him? There'd be nothing keeping him 'neither living nor dead' any more, so it seems to me he ought to become just plain dead. But really, it's up to each of us to imagine whatever suits our imaginations.
    I meant while Sauron still had the Ring...I know that after it was destroyed more than likely the Nine entered the world of the dead instead of being alive and dead at the same time.

    I've always just thought that, if given the chance, Sauron could've brought back the Witch King while he still had his power or if he regained the Ring. I suppose it's all up to imagination though.
    I've been at the mercy of men just following orders. Never again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BirdofHermes View Post
    My imagination says the WK changed his name to Juan and is now happily married and living somewhere on Tenerife.
    Selling dodgy timeshares, perhaps? That'd be suitably evil

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    Maybe nine Nazgul weren't directly tied to the fate of the one, they were bound to his will though.

    Im not sure if tolkien stated it, but those 9 rings Sauron had might not be destroyed in Barad-Dur and just buried.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BirdofHermes View Post
    My imagination says the WK changed his name to Juan and is now happily married and living somewhere on Tenerife.
    Well I do know another called Alberto, in Mexico city my dad...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Al. View Post
    Im not sure if tolkien stated it, but those 9 rings Sauron had might not be destroyed in Barad-Dur and just buried.
    I had never thought about that before, but wouldn't their power be lost, similarly to the power of the Three Rings? I think so.
    I've been at the mercy of men just following orders. Never again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Selebrimbor View Post
    I had never thought about that before, but wouldn't their power be lost, similarly to the power of the Three Rings? I think so.
    I don't think their power would be lost, but would be leader less.

    Afterall their power was granted by their condition. The three rings never lost their power they just went west.


    EDIT: Im not a nazgul btw
    Last edited by Al.; Sep 26 2013 at 05:11 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Al. View Post
    I don't think their power would be lost, but would be leader less.

    Afterall their power was granted by their condition. The three rings never lost their power they just went west.
    The clear implication was that they did lose their power. That was the nature of Galadriel's choice: either to take up the One Ring and to become something terrible, or to let it pass so that it would go on to be destroyed and she would 'diminish'. That's the key word there, that she would lose something if the One Ring were destroyed and that can only be the power of the Ring she herself bears. The power that was preserving Lorien from the ravages of time and its people from becoming weary of the world, and without which it would fade. If the Three had kept their power she could have carried on exactly as she had before, and Lorien could have endured.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    The clear implication was that they did lose their power. That was the nature of Galadriel's choice: either to take up the One Ring and to become something terrible, or to let it pass so that it would go on to be destroyed and she would 'diminish'. That's the key word there, that she would lose something if the One Ring were destroyed and that can only be the power of the Ring she herself bears. The power that was preserving Lorien from the ravages of time and its people from becoming weary of the world, and without which it would fade. If the Three had kept their power she could have carried on exactly as she had before, and Lorien could have endured.
    Actually No. The three rings were forged by Celebrimbor for other purpose different than the nine rings or the seven. Also Galadriel choice was about the One ring if she would have taken it she would be corrupted by it. But she didn't and her diminish was of all elves in middle earth she was fading and going west...

    This is stated in the Unfinished Tales. Also Galadriel "power" to preserve was the elf-stone she carried, the ring (part of the three) cause the effect of making the land embellished.
    Last edited by Al.; Sep 26 2013 at 06:24 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Al. View Post
    Actually No. The three rings were forged by Celebrimbor for other purpose different than the nine rings or the seven.
    Their stated power was 'understanding, making, and healing, to preserve all things unstained' (FOTR, 'The Council of Elrond'). Of course the powers of the Seven and the Nine were different but that's got nothing to do with it, what matters is whether the power of the Three had become irretrievably tied to that of the One Ring when it was made.

    Also Galadriel choice was about the One ring if she would have taken it she would be corrupted by it. But she didn't and her diminish was of all elves in middle earth she was fading and going west...
    Well, duh. Didn't I just say as much? But you haven't provided any explanation at all for why Galadriel inevitably becomes 'diminished' by rejecting the One Ring. If her Ring will still work regardless, why does she need to leave Middle-earth? Why must Lorien fade? The point, as I understood it, is that for the greater good she's prepared to sacrifice her realm (since it can't endure naturally), and it's that decision that redeems her in the eyes of the Valar.

    As Elrond had put it at the Council: 'But maybe when the One has gone, the Three will fail, and many fair things will fade and be forgotten. That is my belief.' (And that firmly establishes that their power *was* somehow keeping 'fair things' from 'fading').

    This is stated in the Unfinished Tales. Also Galadriel "power" to preserve was the elf-stone she carried.
    As stated in the Unfinished Tales (and no thanks to you, seeing as you didn't bother to cite it properly):

    "Wielding the Elessar all things grew fair about Galadriel, until the coming of the Shadow to the Forest. But afterwards when Nenya, chief of the Three, was sent to her by Celebrimbor, she needed it (as she thought) no more, and she gave it to Celebrian her daughter, and so it came to Arwen and to Aragorn who was called Elessar." (UT, 'The History of Galadriel and Celeborn', 'The Elessar')

    So by that account she'd used the Elfstone to make Lorien verdant and fair in the first place but had come to rely on Nenya to keep it that way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    Their stated power was 'understanding, making, and healing, to preserve all things unstained' (FOTR, 'The Council of Elrond'). Of course the powers of the Seven and the Nine were different but that's got nothing to do with it, what matters is whether the power of the Three had become irretrievably tied to that of the One Ring when it was made.
    Dont have the book in hand, but Im certain the three rings each had different purpose

    Well, duh. Didn't I just say as much? But you haven't provided any explanation at all for why Galadriel inevitably becomes 'diminished' by rejecting the One Ring. If her Ring will still work regardless, why does she need to leave Middle-earth? Why must Lorien fade? The point, as I understood it, is that for the greater good she's prepared to sacrifice her realm (since it can't endure naturally), and it's that decision that redeems her in the eyes of the Valar.

    As Elrond had put it at the Council: 'But maybe when the One has gone, the Three will fail, and many fair things will fade and be forgotten. That is my belief.' (And that firmly establishes that their power *was* somehow keeping 'fair things' from 'fading').
    You really got it wrong, I mean Galadriel needs to leave Middle Earth firstmost because she is an elf who actually lived in Valinor and the ring make her wish it even more that is what I understood from Celeborn and Galdriel, Unfinished Tales.



    As stated in the Unfinished Tales (and no thanks to you, seeing as you didn't bother to cite it properly):

    "Wielding the Elessar all things grew fair about Galadriel, until the coming of the Shadow to the Forest. But afterwards when Nenya, chief of the Three, was sent to her by Celebrimbor, she needed it (as she thought) no more, and she gave it to Celebrian her daughter, and so it came to Arwen and to Aragorn who was called Elessar." (UT, 'The History of Galadriel and Celeborn', 'The Elessar')

    So by that account she'd used the Elfstone to make Lorien verdant and fair in the first place but had come to rely on Nenya to keep it that way.
    You forgot to add they wore both at the same time, when the events of the third age happened, she only gave the elf-stone to Aragorn when he became King of the United Kingdom.

    Elf stone made all things to retain they "ever green" nature. The Ring made Lorien embellished thats it, after she went west Lorien stopped been green and immortal place...

    There is no contradiction between the elf stone and Nenya, also Nenya never went to aragorn you meant the elf stone right?
    Last edited by Al.; Sep 26 2013 at 07:55 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Al. View Post
    Dont have the book in hand, but Im certain the three rings each had different purpose
    That was a direct quote, that's how Elrond describes them. So while they may differ in some respects (although it's never stated in precise terms), they evidently all have that in common.

    You really got it wrong, I mean Galadriel needs to leave Middle Earth firstmost because she is an elf who actually lived in Valinor and the ring make her wish it even more that is what I understood from Celeborn and Galdriel, Unfinished Tales.
    You're missing something: until she'd earned forgiveness she wasn't allowed to leave, as she was an Exile. She had to show contrition, that she no longer sought power for its own sake (which was why she'd originally left Valinor, she'd wanted a realm of her own to rule badly enough that she was prepared to defy the Valar) and she did that by rejecting the One Ring even though it also meant the end of Lorien.

    You forgot to add they wore both at the same time, when the events of the third age happened, she only gave the elf-stone to Aragorn when he became King of the United Kingdom.
    That was another direct quote. Something you may not have realised is that it's 'Unfinished Tales' for a reason, in some ways they sometimes differ from LOTR's account. You can't just borrow the bits you like.

    Elf stone made all things to retain they "ever green" nature. The Ring made Lorien embellished thats it, after she went west Lorien stopped been green and immortal place...
    That's just you assuming something that is never stated. I quoted you what Elrond says, that he thought the Three Rings would lose their power when the One was destroyed, leading to many fair things fading and that's exactly what happens.

    There is no contradiction between the elf stone and Nenya, also Nenya never went to aragorn you meant the elf stone right?
    Sorry, what? That's a quote. It says she gave up the Elessar because she could use Nenya instead, or so she thought (i.e. that worked great until the Three lost their power).

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    A quote on the rings power:


    • "The chief power (of all the rings alike) was the prevention or slowing of decay (i.e. 'change' viewed as a regrettable thing), the preservation of what is desired or loved, or its semblance - this is more or less an Elvish motive. But also they enhanced the natural powers of a possessor - thus approaching 'magic', a motive easily corruptible into evil, a lust for domination. And finally they had other powers, more directly derived from Sauron... such as rendering invisible the material body, and making things of the invisible world visible."
      [The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien #131]





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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    That was a direct quote, that's how Elrond describes them. So while they may differ in some respects (although it's never stated in precise terms), they evidently all have that in common.
    Check the quote on tolkien letter I posted earlier. It says they do sustain but have different powers too.

    You're missing something: until she'd earned forgiveness she wasn't allowed to leave, as she was an Exile. She had to show contrition, that she no longer sought power for its own sake (which was why she'd originally left Valinor, she'd wanted a realm of her own to rule badly enough that she was prepared to defy the Valar) and she did that by rejecting the One Ring even though it also meant the end of Lorien.
    Yes I agree thats part of the story too, she sacrifices lorien by not accepting the ring. I know she wasn't allowed to leave because of the Curse of Mandos. But you missed she already was planning to ask the pardon of the Valar before the ring was destroyed.

    That was another direct quote. Something you may not have realised is that it's 'Unfinished Tales' for a reason, in some ways they sometimes differ from LOTR's account. You can't just borrow the bits you like.


    That's just you assuming something that is never stated. I quoted you what Elrond says, that he thought the Three Rings would lose their power when the One was destroyed, leading to many fair things fading and that's exactly what happens.
    Yes Elrond did say it also backed up by Galadriel, but yet the rings went west...



    Sorry, what? That's a quote. It says she gave up the Elessar because she could use Nenya instead, or so she thought (i.e. that worked great until the Three lost their power).
    Please source of it, Its not in the unfinished tales. Galadriel used both elf-stone to make green, and Nenya to make immortal.
    Last edited by Al.; Sep 26 2013 at 08:30 PM.

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    Elrond says in "The Council of Elrond" chapter that the elves were willing to sacrifice their power so that the One Ring could be destroyed. Of course the Three Rings were made for different purposes than the One, the Seven, and the Nine. However, the fate of those rings became tied with the fate of the One Ring.

    Elrond states that there are two beliefs of what will happen if the One were to be destroyed:

    1. The Three will be free and the Elves will continue on mending the land and making things fair.
    or
    2. The Three will diminish and many things that were once fair will be fair no more.

    He also stated that he believed the latter would be true.
    I've been at the mercy of men just following orders. Never again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Selebrimbor View Post
    Elrond says in "The Council of Elrond" chapter that the elves were willing to sacrifice their power so that the One Ring could be destroyed. Of course the Three Rings were made for different purposes than the One, the Seven, and the Nine. However, the fate of those rings became tied with the fate of the One Ring.

    Elrond states that there are two beliefs of what will happen if the One were to be destroyed:

    1. The Three will be free and the Elves will continue on mending the land and making things fair.
    or
    2. The Three will diminish and many things that were once fair will be fair no more.

    He also stated that he believed the latter would be true.
    Yet they took them to the west.

    Either

    1. they are powerless
    2. they have some power left.

    Now my question, elves left middle earth just as magic left middle earth, the rings were part of that magic so in my beleif they did have some power left or future use.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Al. View Post
    Yet they took them to the west.

    Either

    1. they are powerless
    2. they have some power left.

    Now my question, elves left middle earth just as magic left middle earth, the rings were part of that magic so in my beleif they did have some power left or future use.
    Letter 144
    "Hence the making of the Rings; for the Three Rings were precisely endowed with the power of preservation, not of birth. Though unsullied, because they were not made by Sauron nor touched by him, they were nonetheless partly products of his instruction, and ultimately under the control of the One. Thus, as you will see, when the One goes, the last defenders of High elven lore and beauty are shorn of power to hold back time, and depart."
    Again more evidence from Tolkien that the destruction of the One rendered the Three powerless.
    As for them being taken west, I am at a loss as to how this can be seen as evidence that they still possessed power.


    In addition the relevant quote from Galadriel from FotR:
    He suspects, but he does not know – not yet. Do you not see now wherefore your coming is to us as the footstep of Doom? For if you fail, then we are laid bare to the Enemy. Yet if you succeed, then our power is diminished, and Lothlórien will fade, and the tides of Time will sweep it away. We must depart into the West, or dwindle to a rustic folk of dell and cave, slowly to forget and to be forgotten.'
    Frodo bent his head. `And what do you wish? ' he said at last.
    `That what should be shall be,' she answered. `The love of the Elves for their land and their works is deeper than the deeps of the Sea, and their regret is undying and cannot ever wholly be assuaged. Yet they will cast all away rather than submit to Sauron: for they know him now. For the fate of Lothlórien you are not answerable but only for the doing of your own task. Yet I could wish, were it of any avail, that the One Ring had never been wrought, or had remained for ever lost.'
    Last edited by Ceredig; Sep 26 2013 at 11:59 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Al. View Post
    Check the quote on tolkien letter I posted earlier. It says they do sustain but have different powers too.
    Where did I say otherwise? With regard to what I was saying, though, it confirms that they all had the power to preserve. Whatever other powers they might have had (like the Red Ring's apparent ability to 'rekindle' lost hope and courage) don't change what I said.

    Yes I agree thats part of the story too, she sacrifices lorien by not accepting the ring. I know she wasn't allowed to leave because of the Curse of Mandos. But you missed she already was planning to ask the pardon of the Valar before the ring was destroyed.
    Asking isn't getting. Fate obviously had other plans, and that's essentially the will of Iluvatar made manifest. She realises that the One Ring being brought before her was a test.

    Yes Elrond did say it also backed up by Galadriel, but yet the rings went west...
    With their bearers. Gandalf's job was done, and it was time for the other two to leave as well; they no longer had the power to stave off the effects of time or the weariness of the world.

    Please source of it, Its not in the unfinished tales. Galadriel used both elf-stone to make green, and Nenya to make immortal.
    It's there all right - I typed that word for word last night with the book in front of me. Don't make me go to the trouble of looking something up and then try to tell me it's not there. Having referred you to it already the only further help I can give you in finding it is to tell you it's about a third of the way down page 325 in my paperback edition of UT, which may not be the same as yours. And again, you have to be wary of UT's 'unfinished' nature.

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    Ok I agree, the three rings loosed their power.

    Anyway Im stoked noone asked me a pic of a real life nazgul, afterall its my dad I have pics of him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Al. View Post
    Ok I agree, the three rings loosed their power.

    Anyway Im stoked noone asked me a pic of a real life nazgul, afterall its my dad I have pics of him.
    And the thread train starts to take a rather odd and unsettling detour...Choo choo!
    Today is a good day for Pie.

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    Lol...ok then...

    Thanks all for the replies!
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