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  1. #26
    My problems with this class has always been that it's a trade-off class: either you have fun, or you CC & DeBuff. Back in 2008, when I started playing an LM, we had very high burst DPS and access to CC/DeBuff skills. Turbine then, when Moria came out, split off our DPS abilities and our CC abilities and made them a negative correlation - if you traited DPS, your CC abilities would be impacted and vice versa. I didn't like the change, but I was mostly a Solo player and so only needed my DPS skills, and I had a few CC abilities like roots that compensated. This dire trade-off became clear to me when I found myself raiding with my guild after RoI came out. By then the only way that I could be invited to the raid was to trait into CC/DeBuff and so my time was not spent contributing to DPS and having fun, but spent CCing, Debuffing, and getting a Fire Embers out in between the rotation. To make matters worse, Turbine never balanced our DPS right and so a DPS LM in a Raid was almost never heard of because a Hunter, Champion or Burglar would always be slotted into those roles. To put it plainly, my LM was relegated to a "Support" Role and that, for me, was never fun and I've since stopped playing the LM and now the game.

    It does not seem like this Dev Diary has gotten that issue fixed. Lore-Masters were a fun class to play in the beginning, we could contribute to our group's DPS and CC/DeBuff, but Turbine decided that that was too much for one class to be able to do and so they throttled us. But Support roles aren't fun to play for everyone, and the toll they take robs us of our enjoyment of the game. I was hoping that the devs would be able to see that and be able to integrate our Support abilities more into our other lines, but it seems that they've taken the easy way out and just created a CC/Debuff line. Turbine, please reconsider this and address the dearth of playable lines in a Raid, as it stands Keeper of Animals and Master of Nature's Fury LM's will not be asked into Raids.
    Last edited by FieldMedic; Sep 24 2013 at 08:11 PM. Reason: Spelling

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mortikus View Post
    Am I missing something, where is the crowd control?
    I wondered the same thing.

    I've said before that LotRO is becoming unrecognizable. But if there's no CC (and that's a big "if"), that'll be more literally true --from a game mechanics standpoint-- than I ever thought possible.
    Last edited by Hurin; Sep 24 2013 at 09:43 PM. Reason: had "bit" for "big"
    "Ephemeral" does not mean what I think it means.

  3. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by FieldMedic View Post
    My problems with this class has always been that it's a trade-off class: either you have fun, or you CC & DeBuff. Back in 2008, when I started playing an LM, we had very high burst DPS and access to CC/DeBuff skills. Turbine then, when Moria came out, split off our DPS abilities and our CC abilities and made them a negative correlation - if you traited DPS, your CC abilities would be impacted and vice versa. I didn't like the change, but I was mostly a Solo player and so only needed my DPS skills, and I had a few CC abilities like roots that compensated. This dire trade-off became clear to me when I found myself raiding with my guild after RoI came out. By then the only way that I could be invited to the raid was to trait into CC/DeBuff and so my time was not spent contributing to DPS and having fun, but spent CCing, Debuffing, and getting a Fire Embers out in between the rotation. To make matters worse, Turbine never balanced our DPS right and so a DPS LM in a Raid was almost never heard of because a Hunter, Champion or Burglar would always be slotted into those roles. To put it plainly, my LM was relegated to a "Support" Role and that, for me, was never fun and I've since stopped playing the LM and now the game.

    It does not seem like this Dev Diary has gotten that issue fixed. Lore-Masters were a fun class to play in the beginning, we could contribute to our group's DPS and CC/DeBuff, but Turbine decided that that was too much for one class to be able to do and so they throttled us. But Support roles aren't fun to play for everyone, and the toll they take robs us of our enjoyment of the game. I was hoping that the devs would be able to see that and be able to integrate our Support abilities more into our other lines, but it seems that they've taken the easy way out and just created a CC/Debuff line. Turbine, please reconsider this and address the dearth of playable lines in a Raid, as it stands Keeper of Animals and Master of Nature's Fury LM's will not be asked into Raids.
    I question the assertion that lms were ever on par with hunters or champs for dps. If an when burgs lose their devastate set bonus they will again be a second tier dps class as well.

    Even untraited, LMs have far superior CC abilities to champs and (untraited) hunters and burgs. You're asking to be the best CC class in the game, and at the same time tied for the best DPS, this is a non-starter. Harmony minstrels can't dps even with a hunt/burg/champ while putting out top notch heals, and a tank stance warden or guard can't survive/hold aggro while putting out hunt/burg/champ dps.

    We have primary tank classes, primary healing classes, primary dps classes, and primary support classes. Its a problem, not a good thing, when a single class can be 'top tier' in 2 of these classes at once. For what its worth, there is a long line of classes who can't keep up with hunters/burgs/champs for dps, but still do enough to fill the role in most any situation, LMs have plenty of company.
    [center][img]http://i58.tinypic.com/2wrm5ja_th.jpg[/img][/center]
    [center]Let our actions speak for themselves. Jinjaah has been pouring over every post in the Bullroarer forum. Please keep in mind that any experiences with previous LOTRO teams are not reflective of the current team, give us a chance[/center]

  4. #29
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    The dev diary for LM looks interesting, if a bit brief.

    I'd like to see the other diaries be a bit more meaty. This looks like a promo overview of the class that should have been released months ago, with zilch for real solid details.

    I also noticed that it said...

    As always, everything mentioned here is subject to change as we continue to re-work, balance, and refine these classes. Please feel free to comment and discuss. Thanks so much for reading, and we hope you enjoy when all of this goes live!
    This quote is encouraging.

    I do sincerely hope that feedback from people in the beta is being very seriously listened to and considered. And not just the good stuff like was prevalent during the RoR beta that I was a part of. You didn't listen very well then, and it wasn't the first time. Sometimes, just sometimes, the customer knows what they really want, despite what you think they should have. It's generally a good idea to give it to them.

    Really and sincerely LISTEN to the feedback, and make appropriate changes so that we don't end up with a gawdawful mess. From what's been released it looks like all the classes are going to be massively revamped, and that''s either going to be well received or sink like a lead ballon. I reckon you'll have ONE chance to get this right. Make it count.
    Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar, tenn’ Ambar-metta!

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mortikus View Post
    Am I missing something, where is the crowd control?
    Why do you need crowd-control when you have:

    "One skill to strike them all,
    One skill to burn them,
    One skill to freeze them all,
    With an Ent's stomp, crush them"

    Joking aside, the current end-game content has very little use for CC. A few specific raid may require CC, but that's all. And I think this trend will continue in even further updates and expansions.

    These changes make me want to re-roll as a lore-master, though : P

  6. #31
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    I saw Facebook comments about how this is the worst diary and did not give justification to changes.
    >Hunter dev diary

    OT: Even more DPS. Meh. I mean, I play a LM, I would love to contribute more DPS to the group, and the new skills certainly sound interesting, but that wasn't the main idea when the class was first created. LMs get to CC, debuff, offheal, do... stuff with his pet(s), and now (seemingly) greater DPS - what will Champions and Hunters do aside from offtanking and do a bit of CC (respectively), when LMs can offer more?

    Also, would Coordination provide us with the ability to heal the group with a flank heal, or is it just a hidden bonus of the Hytbold KoA set?
    "Sic'em!" meh. I would like to see it changed, please.
    "A name like say, Charge of Oromë (he was a hunter of the fell beasts of Melkor), would fit better." Agreed.
    [COLOR="#669966"][center][size=1]Mildford - R9 Hunter • Support - R7 LM
    The Storm Crusaders • Gladden[/size][/center][/COLOR]

  7. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by FieldMedic View Post
    My problems with this class has always been that it's a trade-off class: either you have fun, or you CC & DeBuff. Back in 2008, when I started playing an LM, we had very high burst DPS and access to CC/DeBuff skills. Turbine then, when Moria came out, split off our DPS abilities and our CC abilities and made them a negative correlation - if you traited DPS, your CC abilities would be impacted and vice versa. I didn't like the change, but I was mostly a Solo player and so only needed my DPS skills, and I had a few CC abilities like roots that compensated. This dire trade-off became clear to me when I found myself raiding with my guild after RoI came out. By then the only way that I could be invited to the raid was to trait into CC/DeBuff and so my time was not spent contributing to DPS and having fun, but spent CCing, Debuffing, and getting a Fire Embers out in between the rotation. To make matters worse, Turbine never balanced our DPS right and so a DPS LM in a Raid was almost never heard of because a Hunter, Champion or Burglar would always be slotted into those roles. To put it plainly, my LM was relegated to a "Support" Role and that, for me, was never fun and I've since stopped playing the LM and now the game.

    It does not seem like this Dev Diary has gotten that issue fixed. Lore-Masters were a fun class to play in the beginning, we could contribute to our group's DPS and CC/DeBuff, but Turbine decided that that was too much for one class to be able to do and so they throttled us. But Support roles aren't fun to play for everyone, and the toll they take robs us of our enjoyment of the game. I was hoping that the devs would be able to see that and be able to integrate our Support abilities more into our other lines, but it seems that they've taken the easy way out and just created a CC/Debuff line. Turbine, please reconsider this and address the dearth of playable lines in a Raid, as it stands Keeper of Animals and Master of Nature's Fury LM's will not be asked into Raids.
    The red line sounds pretty and has some neat mechanics. But I agree! I liked how ancient craft worked in tandem with lightning. Little trade off for the big dps and a debuff in any event. It depends on how useful it is to mix trees, since flexible multitasking gameplay is the lifeblood of LMs! I like that as a dps traited LM I can assist in healing and CC quite easily. I really enjoy playing blue line with a bog lurker but not so desired in group settings, maybe this will fix that? Or maybe it will dumb it down so I dont have that kind of fun balancing act. I'm reserving judgment but I'm concerned.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0c2140000000105d2/01008/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by xandervix_tog View Post
    "Sic' em" sounds very un-Tolkien. Please don't go with the name "Sic 'em" when HD goes live

    Otherwise this sounds like a huge improvement

    Yeah, sic' em just isn't lore friendly.

    Maybe something with "Pack" in the name. I don't know if the animals that are summoned are random or a mixture of different animals, but I'd prefer something like "Pack Mentality", "Summon Pack" or something like that.
    Tarphindiel~Hu~100, Tolella~Mi~86, Ryeberry~Gu~80, Torfrik~Rk~80, Arindis~Be~60
    Meleras~Wd~50, Minethril~Ca~49, Diorwen~Ch~44, Indiria~Lm~38, Alanda~Bu~32
    And Fourteen Other Alts
    Founder of Gladden's "The Fellowship of the Ping"

  9. #34
    We don't know what lms will lose through skill consolidation. As I recall we have almost 50 skills not including pet summons. The justification for the lm having such a vast array of skills is that our healing and damage dealing is second tier thus making primary healers and damage dealers the preferred choices in those roles. While the dps changes look well and good what other utility will we be able to bring at the same time? If all we can do while traited for dealing damage is deal damage, with no debuffs, cc or healing the class is in trouble unless the changes mean the lm can fill a primary damage dealing or healing role.

    Fairly concerned by the extent of the skill "pruning". Across all 3 skill trees how many skills will we have access to (I realise not all at the same time). Do devs still see classes as belonging to tiers such as damage dealing and healing or does the revamp mean there aren't primary and secondary tiers anymore.

  10. #35
    What is the substantive difference between Keeper of Animals and Nature's Fury? Obviously the actions will look different and it will feel different, but what is the real difference?
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0c2140000000105d2/01008/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belnavar View Post
    I agree that the name needs to change. It sounds very inappropriate for a Tolkien title, not to mention inconsistent with other names Turbine has been using to date.

    Hopefully it's just a placeholder name.

    -Bel
    I respectfully disagree. There are already things that seem out of place. Such as golf and football existing in Middle-Earth (source: The Hobbit). Football, as I understand it, dates WAAAAY back, but golf was invented in the 15th Century (IIRC). But neither really seem like they fit in with the spirit of Middle-Earth, and they they do anyway. So why not "sic 'em"? I could totally see some old medieval hunter out with his dogs shouting, "Sic 'em!"

    If you have ever seen a dragon in a pinch, you will realise that this was only poetical exaggeration applied to any hobbit, even to Old Took's great granduncle Bullroarer, who was so huge (for a hobbit) that he could ride a horse. He charged the ranks of the goblins of Mount Gram in the Battle of the Green Fields, and knocked their king Gol-firnbul's head clean off with a wooden club. It sailed a hundred yards through the air and went down a rabbit hole, and in this way the battle was won and the game of Golf invented at the same moment.
    -Chapter 1: An Unexpected Party

    "This won't do at all!" said Thorin. "If we don't get blown off or drowned, or struck by lightning, we shall be picked up by some giant and kicked sky-high for a football."
    -Chapter 4: Over Hill and Under Hill

    To the fattest of these bundles the spider went--"It is poor old Bombur, I'll bet," thought Bilbo - and nipped hard at the nose that stuck out. There was a muffled yelp inside, and a toe shot up and kicked the spider straight and hard. There was life in Bombur still. There was a noise like the kicking of a flabby football, and the enraged spider fell off the branch, only catching itself with its own thread just in time.
    -Chapter 8: Flies and Spiders

    Quote Originally Posted by Ithrien View Post
    On the revitalize your role page: the Lore-master can specialize in crowd control, healing and support, or damage dealing.

    Diary says "The Ancient Master also has the ability to restore the Morale and Power of allies" in the introductory paragraph but neither the KoA nor the AM information talked about healing (just a group Power share on a DPS skill crit) at all.

    So does pet line offer healing and support too? Or is yellow CC heal and support?
    I am also concerned about this! One big group skill that people could depend on from LMs is the ability for LMs to restore power (even if only to one person at a time). Please tell us that any LM, regardless of spec, will have at least some restoration abilities! Not just in regards to their pets!
    R5 100 GRD Marevayave - Leader of Riddermarked For Death
    R8 100 MNS Fayah/100 LM Siennah/100 HNT Dinenol/100 RK Dhurik
    100 CHN Alachas/85 CPT Dinfaerien/60 BUR Dhax/35 WDN Godoric
    R9 100 MNS Fayeh (alt Wilya) - Lonely Mountain Band @ Landroval

  12. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Crispian View Post
    What is the substantive difference between Keeper of Animals and Nature's Fury? Obviously the actions will look different and it will feel different, but what is the real difference?
    MoNF will have a lot more damaging skills, like Lightning Storm and the new Nature's Fury cyclone thingy. KoA is more about buffing your pets, so you will probably have less damaging skills to use.

    More generally, I can't even bother to get excited or disappointed about these things anymore. The amount of info is so sparse that it just isn't worth it. I thought that we were going to get Developer Diaries, not Developer Teasers.

  13. #38
    Eventhough the changes sound really lovely I can't help but wonder why each and every class has significantly increase AoE potential... I shiver at the thought of being in a 'big battle' with a dozen other people each and every one of us throwing AoE skills as if there were no tomorrow. I like this game for it's relatively slow pace, for it's peace and quiet, for it's laidback playstyle.

    Oh well.

  14. #39
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    Keeper of Animals DPS

    My primary concern with keeper of animals is the poor dps of current pets, even when fully traited at 85, a lynx on a crit will only eliminate about 30% of an 85 normal mob from stealth. back when you get a lynx at lvl 30, it did enough damage for 50-60% of a normal, at level, mob's morale.

    LM pets at 85, fully traited, should be doing at minimum, 750 dps fully traited KoA to make up for the loss to damage from not traiting Nature's Fury.

    Also, please make sure bear pet with threat / armour food produces the same threat as a top geared guard with max LI threat legacy. This will restore bears to their proper status as single target tank when traited correctly.
    LvL 100s: Beorning, Burglar, Captain, Champ, Guardian, Hunter, Lore-Master, Minstrel, Rune-Keeper
    LvL 85: Warden, Minstrel
    All my forum posts are my opinions and may not even be that. Also On Twitter: @leixicon

  15. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by FieldMedic View Post
    But Support roles aren't fun to play for everyone, and the toll they take robs us of our enjoyment of the game
    If you don't like Support roles, don't play one; the decision is entirely yours. I am not a fan of everyone being able to do almost everything. That just makes for a game full of clones. It be a boring world if we all be the same.......I am happy that common sense prevails.

    Role another class if you want to DPS in raids.

    Quote Originally Posted by Leixy View Post
    My primary concern with keeper of animals is the poor dps of current pets, even when fully traited at 85, a lynx on a crit will only eliminate about 30% of an 85 normal mob from stealth. back when you get a lynx at lvl 30, it did enough damage for 50-60% of a normal, at level, mob's morale.

    LM pets at 85, fully traited, should be doing at minimum, 750 dps fully traited KoA to make up for the loss to damage from not traiting Nature's Fury.

    Also, please make sure bear pet with threat / armour food produces the same threat as a top geared guard with max LI threat legacy. This will restore bears to their proper status as single target tank when traited correctly.
    I thought this is what they have addressed. At least this is what I glean from the Dev diary.......
    Last edited by Froop; Sep 25 2013 at 01:43 AM.

  16. #41
    Is there any ETA for the missing dev diaries about the class changes?

  17. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Mortikus View Post
    Am I missing something, where is the crowd control?
    I reckon CC is covered by "Ancient Master" (emphasis mine) :

    Quote Originally Posted by Deviled_Egg
    The Ancient Master’s ability to control and support a fight takes many forms.
    ...
    For example, the trait “Disable” significantly increases the duration of stuns.
    Now pl[b]a[/b]ying : Br[b]a[/b]hmiel, Level 100 Elf LM and so h[b]a[/b]ppy my pet lets me t[b]a[/b]g [b]a[/b]long !
    Olmfred, Level 86 M[b]a[/b]n W[b]a[/b]rden - boring | V[b]a[/b]bo, Level 85 Hobbit Minstrel - meh
    Svell[b]a[/b], Level 61 Elf Hunter - retired | Crome[b]a[/b], Level 58 M[b]a[/b]n C[b]a[/b]pt[b]a[/b]in - retired
    Free-del[b]a[/b]s !

  18. #43
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    So in the Moors the LM is either a dmg dealer or cc-group player.
    What about small groups where lm needs to be both. Is this still possible with HD?
    I mean stun-immunity, root, stunning, slowing (sticky tar)?

  19. #44
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    Well these are the 1st lot of class changes with HD that i havent read and thought OMG what the **** are turbine doing.

    Captain changes, from the sounds of em mean i wont be playing my captain any more, nerf after nerf
    Champ - red-line only
    Grd - suppose not that bad, but the fighter of shadow line sounds pointless

    Now comes the lm, and im quite happy. I like the idea of different skills changing what debuff is applied, and well done on placing the healing skills outside the blue line, i had nightmares of water-lore only being available in the blue-line tree...hence having to put points into that tree to do so, something wihch i didnt want to do.

  20. #45
    I would have liked healing as a part of the blue line, not yellow

    Increased flanking, flank heals healing more and AoE, decreased CD of Beacon of Hope

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mar-Evayave View Post
    So why not "sic 'em"? I could totally see some old medieval hunter out with his dogs shouting, "Sic 'em!"

    But Mar, a Lore-master is not a hunter...
    Éala Éarendel engla beorhtast / ofer middangeard monnum sended / and sodfasta sunnan leoma, / tohrt ofer tunglas þu tida gehvane / of sylfum þe symle inlihtes.

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herwegur View Post
    But Mar, a Lore-master is not a hunter...
    In this game, the Hunter class does not have pets. In real life a medieval hunter would have hounds, maybe hawks, etc. In this game the Hunter has none of them. A Lore-master type person does not exist in real life so there isn't a good comparison of that class with anyone in RL. But the LM controls pets the same way a RL medieval hunter would control pets. The emphasis isn't on the CLASS, but on the existence of the pets themselves and how any person, regardless of who they are, would deal with these situations. A medieval hunter and a LOTRO LM both control their hounds, hawks, etc. For the Medieval hunter to tell his hounds to "Sic 'em" is no different than an LM giving his pets the same exact command.
    R5 100 GRD Marevayave - Leader of Riddermarked For Death
    R8 100 MNS Fayah/100 LM Siennah/100 HNT Dinenol/100 RK Dhurik
    100 CHN Alachas/85 CPT Dinfaerien/60 BUR Dhax/35 WDN Godoric
    R9 100 MNS Fayeh (alt Wilya) - Lonely Mountain Band @ Landroval

  23. #48
    Why not call it Knowledge of Radagast, since Radagast is an expert in talking to animals and having them help him

  24. #49
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    I really hope we get a perma mez available to KoA line. Between the pet and permamez I feel like I can play almost as reckless on my LM as I do on my warden.

    I hope we don't lose ents, aoe sticky gourd and wisdom of the council.

    I agree "Sic' em" is a silly name for a lore master skill.

  25. #50
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    Having played Hunter through YEARS of continuous nerfs, I will get rather angry if there's no regular reaction to a class that has been op for a period: there's always a nerf headed that way. No nerf, no balance. We shall see how the LM compares with other classes on release.

 

 
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