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  1. #101
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vilan View Post
    If you don't like to play support and prefer DPS, roll a hunter or champ. Don't complain about CC for those of us who do enjoy that.

    I'm more wondering whether there will be a *point* to traiting for CC.
    WAT IS CC U NOOB LOL LM IS A DPS CLASS XD
    (c) Typical PUG.
    Forget yellow line, trait Dee-Pee-eS. We`re now AOE runekeepers.
    Last edited by Olfaran; Oct 10 2013 at 11:26 PM.
    Don't join dangerous cults: Practice safe sects!

  2. #102
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    Mar 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olfaran View Post
    WAT IS CC U NOOB LOL LM IS A DPS CLASS XD
    (?) Typical PUG.
    Forget yellow line, trait Dee-Pee-eS. We`re now AOE runekeepers.
    Thank you. I just fell out of my chair laughing.

    Glorgnorbor
    Did everyone get a bugged signature? My BB code doesn't work anymore
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  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Olfaran View Post
    WAT IS CC U NOOB LOL LM IS A DPS CLASS XD
    (?) Typical PUG.
    Forget yellow line, trait Dee-Pee-eS. We`re now AOE runekeepers.
    LM can be a DPS class.

    In fact they hold a rather unique roll there - Ranged-AOE-DPS.

    Hunter can do very limited ranged-aoe.

    Except with vary rare types of scripted encounter there really is no functional difference between CC and DPS. CC controls mobs position by holding them and not hitting them, DPS controls mobs position by hitting them and not holding them. The ONLY functional difference is can the healers keep up with the damage the DPSers are taking.

    An appropriately traited and geared Hunter has almost as much CC potential as an LM; and in contrast an appropriately traited and geared LM has almost as much DPS potential as a Hunter.

    I prefer DPS on my LM when I am soloing, and because most of the times I end up doing group stuff is when I am soloing and get asked to help out with a group run I have just learned to make-do using DPS as a CC mechanism in group content. As long as you trust your healers and can out damage the mobs it works - it may not be as pretty, or as tactically sound as genuine CC but it works.

    The thing I am most looking forward to with LMs in HD is trying out the other "builds"; but if I end up as a DPS LM I won't be losing any sleep over it.

    So far the LM Dev Diary is the only one that I consider even remotely positive.

    All The Best

  4. #104
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    Feb 2013
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    65
    Quote Originally Posted by Egilric View Post
    LM can be a DPS class.
    Only a second-tier DPS.

    In fact they hold a rather unique roll there - Ranged-AOE-DPS.
    LMs ranged DPS sucks. To do some REAL damage, you have to get close and personal - because
    1)Staff sweep`s crit. bonus.
    2) Strongest autoattack in the whole game.

    Hunter can do very limited ranged-aoe.
    Appropriately traited hunter can out-DPS a loremaster by spamming one CD-less AOE skill. Something like "Rain of arrows" - I`m from russian server, so not sure about the name.
    Also, fire RK.

    Except with vary rare types of scripted encounter there really is no functional difference between CC and DPS. CC controls mobs position by holding them and not hitting them, DPS controls mobs position by hitting them and not holding them. The ONLY functional difference is can the healers keep up with the damage the DPSers are taking.
    This is wrong on SOOOO many levels...

    An appropriately traited and geared Hunter has almost as much CC potential as an LM; and in contrast an appropriately traited and geared LM has almost as much DPS potential as a Hunter.
    Really? A hunter can lock down a dangerous mob infinitely? Because LM can do this with two mobs.
    Hunter has a rooting skill, a fear skill and a trap. LM has 2 roots, single-target mezz, multi-target mezz, AOE slow, 2 single-target stuns, AOE stun, fear and Call to Valar.

    Also, if LM can reach a hunter`s level of DPS - this hunter is bad and should feel bad.

    The thing I am most looking forward to with LMs in HD is trying out the other "builds"; but if I end up as a DPS LM I won't be losing any sleep over it.
    So, you think that turning an interesting TACTICAL class into just another damage-dealer with tactics only left in the name of type of damage he deals is OK?
    Don't join dangerous cults: Practice safe sects!

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Olfaran View Post
    Only a second-tier DPS.

    LMs ranged DPS sucks. To do some REAL damage, you have to get close and personal - because
    1)Staff sweep`s crit. bonus.
    2) Strongest autoattack in the whole game.


    Appropriately traited hunter can out-DPS a loremaster by spamming one CD-less AOE skill. Something like "Rain of arrows"
    On my Level 85 LM I can do:

    Ents Go To War (15m Range, 5m CD) - I am regularly hitting 5 Targets for 6k+ Damage, + 6 Sec Stun.
    Improved Sticky Gourd (25m Range, 30s CD) - I am regularly hitting 5 Targets for 5k+ Damage, + 500+ Dam, every 4s for 26s.
    Cracked Earth (25m Range, 10s CD) - I can hit 5 Targets for 3k+, and with a 30s Root if the Target is still alive (it usually isn't).
    Lightning Storm (25m Range, 5m CD) - I hit 5 Targets for 7K to 13k a time.
    Gust Of Wind (40m Range, 10s CD) - Hits 6 Targets for 1k - 1.5k.

    On my level 85 Hunter, with similar gear for Ranged AOE I have:
    Rain Of Arrows (40m Range, 10s CD) - 5 Targets - 1.2k Damage.
    Split Shot (40m Range, 10s CD) - 2 Targets - 1k Damage.
    Rain Of Thorns (40m Range, 3m CD) - 5 Targets - 1.4k Damage - 30s Root.

    Now, do you REALLY want to claim that Hunters do more sustained and higher Ranged-AOE DPS than Loremasters?

    All The Best

  6. #106
    Eh, you’re both right. LM dps can be either first tier or second tier depending on the pull’s size and funk.

    Size, one or two mobs, give me a Hunt. Three, I’ll flip you for it. Four, starting to lean the other way. Five plus, color me red LM. The more plus, the more I'll take LM over any class simply because of how ISG works. Saaay... the second boss in Fornost Fire? Hard to argue any class is better suited for it than a red LM. ISG alone will get you absurd dps numbers. That's cherry-picking the best example of course, but any 3-man zerg, SG's last fight, LT, and Sammy are all places where LM dps will rank near the top.

    Well, depending on your group's funk-o-meter. You keeping mobs stationary and clumped? Good. Kiting them in very, very small circles but still clumped? Suh-weet. Kiting them in large circles like Wardens do on occasion or simply moving them around a lot like in BoD? No joy. Cracked Earth’s root works against you, ISG’s DoT doesn’t do nuttin’, Staff-sweep is tough to utilize. Heaven forbid you fire a skill off at the wrong time on the wrong mob, too, because those long cooldowns magnify the cost of a miss. Which can get tricky because…

    Unlike Champion or Guard AoE skills which are centered on your character, LM AoE skills are centered on whichever mob you currently have targeted, sans ISS. Sometimes that’s quite helpful, sometimes that’s horribly not especially without a well-centered mob to target.

    Plus inductions. If the mobs don’t have much health… or the group leader goofed and thought you’d make a good TA… or your group includes a somewhat decent Champ, then you might see a lot of:

    “The target is already dead.”
    “You need a valid target.”
    “The target is already dead.”
    “You need a valid target.”
    “You cannot do that while moving.”
    “The target is already dead.”

    Bummer.



    I complain too much; it’s really not that bad. The real point, though, is LM dps is extremely dependent on a pull's mechanics and luck. Maybe more so than any other class, simply because of how our skills work and not necessarily their magnitude. I've both comfortably sat in the mid 3ks and struggled to reach the mid 1ks on the exact same pull because of group make-up, induction whiffs, and how our group was going about things. All that means is the complexities caused by the square peg, round hole evolution of LM damage skills can sometimes make Olfaran correct. But, the fact that ISG's DoTs are hotspots plus ISS+FireSkillsCritMultiplier's synergy with burst dps skills can sometimes make Egilric correct. Yay, everybody wins!

    Of course, in one month all the verbs I’ve used so far will turn from present tense to past tense so… who cares!
    Last edited by kriskrosed; Oct 09 2013 at 11:46 PM.

  7. #107
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
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    Texas
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    427
    Quote Originally Posted by Gandolf_TheOld View Post
    I know this response is a little late, but...

    As for trashing Water Lore, speak for yourself. As a soloing LM, WL is a critical part of my play and I use WL frequently in groups and raids. Additionally, a few updates ago, when Water Lore was introduced, it was done so we could heal a Small Fellowship (as support we are also patch healers), when traited and with our spirit pets. I have done this. Also, we have never stopped being a support class, we just gained some support skills allowing us to spread our goodness around in a larger circle.

    I was solo healing small groups, as in 3 mans, before water lore and the spirit pet. (AND no, there was no warden tanking.) We have stopped being a support class due to the fact cc isn't really needed anymore. Most lm's never trait anything other than red and run around just spamming WL. WL is op, a crutch, and we didn't need it in the first place period. We already had 3 self heals. All it does is make the class ez mode and we aren't suppose to be that.

  8. #108
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    354
    Quote Originally Posted by Kate00 View Post
    I was solo healing small groups, as in 3 mans, before water lore and the spirit pet. (AND no, there was no warden tanking.) We have stopped being a support class due to the fact cc isn't really needed anymore. Most lm's never trait anything other than red and run around just spamming WL. WL is op, a crutch, and we didn't need it in the first place period. We already had 3 self heals. All it does is make the class ez mode and we aren't suppose to be that.
    I mostly solo on my Lore-master and I find Water Lore essential--at least, very beneficial. Yes, it made the class a bit easier but I find I need very well-thought out crowd control and water-lore in a number of situations, like solo skirmishes, certain instances, and where there is a group of mobs. I think our other heals are very weak or have too-long cooldowns. I tend to agree more with the person you are responding to above. I don't consider it a crutch, as it came to me so late in the game. Once I got it, the game became more fun for me.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by VeryBeary View Post
    I mostly solo on my Lore-master and I find Water Lore essential--at least, very beneficial. Yes, it made the class a bit easier but I find I need very well-thought out crowd control and water-lore in a number of situations, like solo skirmishes, certain instances, and where there is a group of mobs. I think our other heals are very weak or have too-long cooldowns. I tend to agree more with the person you are responding to above. I don't consider it a crutch, as it came to me so late in the game. Once I got it, the game became more fun for me.
    I agree with all you said. Water Lore is essential for me also. It improved my game play a lot and made it a heck of a lot more fun.

  10. #110
    pre water-lore you had to really think about the fight (solo) and how you wanted it to go down. WotC was the big OH NO! heal and I used it sparingly. Once WL became the very handy "I'm Immune to (nearly) Everything" Skill - yeah it got a lot easier to just wade-in without any plan at all.

    It wasn't essential before but it made it easier for those who don't like to set up the fight, to not have to worry too much if things went side-ways. WL is there to the rescue.
    Whoever says “I” creates the “you.” Such is the trap of every conscience. The “I” signifies both solitude and rejection of solitude. Words name things and then replace them. Whoever says tomorrow, denies it. Tomorrow exists only for him who does not seek it. And yesterday? Yesterday is Kolvillàg: a name to forget, a word already forgotten.

    The Oath: A Novel by Elie Wiesel

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Kate00 View Post
    I wish there was more on the yellow line but I've always been fond of that one. I'm so glad the pets are getting attention, they have needed it for awhile now! If its a pure pet line it will be interesting to see how it works.
    WHAT I REALLY WANT TO SEE HAPPEN, is LM going back to being a support class. Not a dps class, not a healing class. And for goodness sakes trash wl already! we didn't need it in the first place and its way too op as it is.
    I agree with most of this. But I still doubt Big Battles will require that many devoted support classes. I don't think you need to debuff and cc all those storming uruk-hais, while keeping people anti-stunned and dropping tar down to slow enemies. Will probably be enough with tank + healer and zerg AoE, while others finish the battle objectives.

    Only content appreciating a yellow/AM traited LM at this point is BfE/Flight T2C. My LM would have been unemployed, had it not been for Improved Sticky Gour, off-healing and red-line pewpew. Making us a pure support class again, might also make us a waste of space in a group and slowpokes when soloing.

    Revamps and class designs has to be created to match the content.

  12. #112
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Wales, UK
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    69
    So I've skimmed through the comments, and I don't recall seeing anyone mention this (I'm relatively new to the class, so apologies if the reason for this is just plain ignorance): "For all Lore-masters, the skill “Gust of Wind” now has a chance to spread Burning Embers from one target to nearby foes. The trait “Mighty Wind”, increases the chance of this happening."

    It's my understanding that there exsists a base probability of the spreading of Burning Embers, after using Gust of Wind, even without spending trait points. Wouldn't this be problematic in fights where multiple mobs need to be CC'ed, and dps'ed in close proximity (think Tower of Orthanc wings)? I've not played LM at endgame, but I would imagine that an AM traited LM would at least sometimes use Burning Embers on the dps target? So the options are to avoid Gust of Wind, or avoid using Burning Embers - sort of a trade off?

    Thoughts?

  13. #113
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
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    18
    Quote Originally Posted by Dirathalad View Post
    So I've skimmed through the comments, and I don't recall seeing anyone mention this (I'm relatively new to the class, so apologies if the reason for this is just plain ignorance): "For all Lore-masters, the skill “Gust of Wind” now has a chance to spread Burning Embers from one target to nearby foes. The trait “Mighty Wind”, increases the chance of this happening."

    It's my understanding that there exsists a base probability of the spreading of Burning Embers, after using Gust of Wind, even without spending trait points. Wouldn't this be problematic in fights where multiple mobs need to be CC'ed, and dps'ed in close proximity (think Tower of Orthanc wings)? I've not played LM at endgame, but I would imagine that an AM traited LM would at least sometimes use Burning Embers on the dps target? So the options are to avoid Gust of Wind, or avoid using Burning Embers - sort of a trade off?

    Thoughts?
    Likely implementation: Targets hit with Gust of Wind have a chance of being inflicted with the dot from Burning Embers if the primary target has active Burning Embers dot.

    I.e. any controlled mobs would have already been broken from control if you hit them with Gust of Wind, so the chance of the dot spreading would be a non issue.

  14. #114
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    Jun 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirathalad View Post
    So I've skimmed through the comments, and I don't recall seeing anyone mention this (I'm relatively new to the class, so apologies if the reason for this is just plain ignorance): "For all Lore-masters, the skill “Gust of Wind” now has a chance to spread Burning Embers from one target to nearby foes. The trait “Mighty Wind”, increases the chance of this happening."

    It's my understanding that there exsists a base probability of the spreading of Burning Embers, after using Gust of Wind, even without spending trait points. Wouldn't this be problematic in fights where multiple mobs need to be CC'ed, and dps'ed in close proximity (think Tower of Orthanc wings)? I've not played LM at endgame, but I would imagine that an AM traited LM would at least sometimes use Burning Embers on the dps target? So the options are to avoid Gust of Wind, or avoid using Burning Embers - sort of a trade off?

    Thoughts?
    I think it means that only mobs who are actually hit by Gust of Wind have a chance to receive the Burning Embers dot. So it doesn't really matter, a dazed mob would've woken up from Gust of Wind damage anyway if you had used it.

  15. #115
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
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    439
    Gust of Wind is no longer an AOE damaging skill, it has one target. Targets within its radius will have a chance to receive BE if the casted-on target has BE ticking - haven't tested this much, don't know about number of stacks spread, assuming just 1 per mob who procs the "spread" regardless of number of stacks main target had.

  16. #116
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    Sep 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by k3nn3th View Post
    Gust of Wind is no longer an AOE damaging skill, it has one target. Targets within its radius will have a chance to receive BE if the casted-on target has BE ticking - haven't tested this much, don't know about number of stacks spread, assuming just 1 per mob who procs the "spread" regardless of number of stacks main target had.
    Maybe true, but,, you are answering in a month old thread. The LM class discussion on the info out of Beta is here.

    https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...ry-Lore-master

  17. #117
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    Jun 2011
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    48
    Quote Originally Posted by Crell_1 View Post
    Lightning Storm is ALREADY an AOE skill, with 5 targets. Is it gaining additional targets? What about the change skill makes it more an 'AoE' than it IS now?

    It's the attention to details about our EXISTING classes that's going to help it continue to feel more like the character we've leveled up than a new one entirely.
    Lightning storm does not require ancient craft. Before, if an enemy died before LS induction was finished you would have 4 (5-1) targets taking damage. Now, LS just hits whatever 5 mobs get in the way.

    Ancient craft also does bonus damage for lightning attacks.

 

 
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