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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mar-Evayave View Post
    I could totally see some old medieval hunter out with his dogs shouting, "Sic 'em!"
    Except that they wouldn't have, because "Sic'em" is a much more recent addition to the language -- only a hundred years old or so. Also, it has a couple different meanings. In some places it is used in the expression, "Does'nt know sic'em" and similar to indicate ignorance. (I.e. 'Doesn't know anything.')

    There are plenty of other lore and immersion breaking things in the game, so it's not the end of the world, but I'm with the 'please-change-it' crowd.

  2. #52
    Aside from the name, "sic em" seems interesting. How about something like "Natures Friends" or "One with the Pack". I understand sic em would be something you'd tell your pets but for the name of the skill it leaves something to be desired. Wish we had some more info instead of teasers. Does the skill call random pets/animals or more of a pack/flock of whatever pet you currently have out? Or none of the above?

  3. #53
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    Personally, I'm very happy that healing is now part of ancient master which is where we will find healing most useful in raids.
    LvL 100s: Beorning, Burglar, Captain, Champ, Guardian, Hunter, Lore-Master, Minstrel, Rune-Keeper
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  4. #54
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    I think that LM will be great in HD!

  5. #55

    “Sic’ em!”?

    “Sic’ em!”? Are you honestly serious? If there is more of this, I think there will be some hate storm coming after HD release.

    How is this consistent with other traits and skills names which implies that Lore-Master is man of knowledge.

    Yeah, “Sic’ em!”, "Slap him!", "Bite him!" Maybe you want to warn us that from complex class we will change to button mashing zombies with only few skills to utilise in each trait tree?

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by bibby042 View Post
    Except that they wouldn't have, because "Sic'em" is a much more recent addition to the language -- only a hundred years old or so. Also, it has a couple different meanings. In some places it is used in the expression, "Does'nt know sic'em" and similar to indicate ignorance. (I.e. 'Doesn't know anything.')
    Don't get me wrong, I'm not totally in love with the term. Something related to Radagast would seem appropriate as someone mentioned.

    The "sic 'em" as used in a derogatory way is, as you say, within the last 50 years or so. "sic" as in "such" dates to the early 1300s. "sic 'em" as in a command to attack dates back to around 1845, which is almost a hundred years before the Trilogy and Hobbit were written/published/etc. Tolkien could easily have borrowed the phrase at any time in his writings and no one would say anything about it. There are, after all, plenty of other things (such as my examples of golf and football) that probably aren't very medieval in style and seem a bit out of place in Middle-Earth, and yet Tolkien included them anyway.
    R5 105 GRD Marevayave - Leader of Riddermarked For Death
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  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by FieldMedic View Post
    It does not seem like this Dev Diary has gotten that issue fixed. Lore-Masters were a fun class to play in the beginning, we could contribute to our group's DPS and CC/DeBuff, but Turbine decided that that was too much for one class to be able to do and so they throttled us. But Support roles aren't fun to play for everyone, and the toll they take robs us of our enjoyment of the game. I was hoping that the devs would be able to see that and be able to integrate our Support abilities more into our other lines, but it seems that they've taken the easy way out and just created a CC/Debuff line. Turbine, please reconsider this and address the dearth of playable lines in a Raid, as it stands Keeper of Animals and Master of Nature's Fury LM's will not be asked into Raids.
    If you don't like to play support and prefer DPS, roll a hunter or champ. Don't complain about CC for those of us who do enjoy that.

    I'm more wondering whether there will be a *point* to traiting for CC. It sounds like blue line will have decent DPS (which makes me wonder what the real difference will be between blue and red, other than DPS coming from animals instead of lightning storms or whatever) but I would like to have a reason to trait for CC. When DPS is a viable and simple strategy, that's what people will use. Hopefully some Battles will have a use for it. We shall see.

    Overall though I'm pretty excited with the changes. I don't know how it will play out in practice but I look forward to giving it a shot!

  8. #58
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    I would have preferred to have a permanent 2nd pet summoned as capstone instead of sic'em.

    Sic'em is fine, but something tells me ii's a very limited skill, and it sounds like it is short duration enough that it isn't worth spending points for in the long run.

    Sic'em should have the same 30 second cooldown as improved sticky gourd when traited and it should do something close to the same dps/cc as improved sticky gourd (assuming imp sticky gourd will still be around).

    Personally Sic'em as a word is perfectly fine in my opinion, because that is exactly what the skill does, summon multiple pets to attack a target at the same time before they disappear.
    LvL 100s: Beorning, Burglar, Captain, Champ, Guardian, Hunter, Lore-Master, Minstrel, Rune-Keeper
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  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by icicles View Post
    "Sic' Em" ... we're getting lore and naming guidance from Xbox Live now? What's next, "pwnd stat" /sad
    actually sic'em is ofc what dog handlers would call to make there animal attack. it's very Tolkien considering he came from Britain and around WW1 era when dog were used in fights (infact both wars). he probably wouldn't have questioned someone roll playing one of shire folk using the phase.

    so I see no harm in it. just a name at the end of the day and if we're going to be critical of the names rather than the actual game... I don't tolkien at all would be happy with this game for a start so the name would be the least of his concerns.
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  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mar-Evayave View Post
    Don't get me wrong, I'm not totally in love with the term. Something related to Radagast would seem appropriate as someone mentioned.

    The "sic 'em" as used in a derogatory way is, as you say, within the last 50 years or so. "sic" as in "such" dates to the early 1300s. "sic 'em" as in a command to attack dates back to around 1845, which is almost a hundred years before the Trilogy and Hobbit were written/published/etc. Tolkien could easily have borrowed the phrase at any time in his writings and no one would say anything about it. There are, after all, plenty of other things (such as my examples of golf and football) that probably aren't very medieval in style and seem a bit out of place in Middle-Earth, and yet Tolkien included them anyway.
    I think the matter of golf/football and post-medieval colloquialisms is not whether they occur in Tolkien's works at large - and they do - but in what context they occur. For example, the phrases you quoted earlier are from the "Hobbit" where they come up in mundane situations, in conversations/interactions between Bilbo and dwarves - and the narrative style there is appropriately more grounded, slapstick, and and easy-going. I have no trouble picturing hobbits playing golf in the Shire, or dwarves playing football in open courts. I can even picture an Orc camp where "sic em!" is constantly shouted (just as we have the documented Orc-spoken "Leg it!" in "Two Towers." Tolkien did actually base Orcs' gruff manner of talking on WWI soldiers from his personal war experience, as post-medieval as it gets).

    But even though golf and football and "leg it!" have their place in Middle Earth, we certainly don't hear these words in Rivendell. Or in the golden hall of Rohan. Or in the Gondorian throne room. Neither among the Elves, nor among the learned human scholars. A poignant sense of awe and wonder descends, and mundane "real-life" modern phrases and terms disappear. Context is everything... "sic em" could be a nice monster-player skill name creep-side. Perfect for a pack of nasty boggarts or pale-folk. But I simply can't picture a sage of ancient knowledge - such as the lore-master figure is - resorting to such gruff "orcish" mannerisms.
    Éala Éarendel engla beorhtast / ofer middangeard monnum sended / and sodfasta sunnan leoma, / tohrt ofer tunglas þu tida gehvane / of sylfum þe symle inlihtes.

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mar-Evayave View Post
    I respectfully disagree. There are already things that seem out of place. Such as golf and football existing in Middle-Earth (source: The Hobbit). Football, as I understand it, dates WAAAAY back, but golf was invented in the 15th Century (IIRC).
    Well, in fairness, The Hobbit has a very different style to The Lord of the Rings, and it is my understanding that Tolkien wanted to rewrite it to better fit with the mythos he created later. A lof of stuff in The Hobbit is a little out of sync with what follows, such as the ridiculous Elves, which lack the elegance of the LOTR ones. I wouldn't like the game to adopt the cheesy, childish style of the former over the grandness of the latter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mar-Evayave View Post
    So why not "sic 'em"? I could totally see some old medieval hunter out with his dogs shouting, "Sic 'em!"
    The problem is the name sounds very colloquial and modern. When we have skill names that are very arcane and grand in style, "Sic 'Em" just ruins the feel of things. A farmer with his hunting dogs might use speech like this, sure, but someone who studies lore to the extent that he/she can muster the forces of nature should be using a far more impressive command.

    It is a little thing, but Turbine is usually good at this, and I would be very disappointed if this name went live.

    So I'm not just criticising, here's an alternative name suggestion: Beacon of Beasts (since it attracts all of the animals to the selected mob).

    -Bel
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  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cerebrum_EU View Post
    Is there any ETA for the missing dev diaries about the class changes?
    Alphabetical Order
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  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belnavar View Post
    The problem is the name sounds very colloquial and modern. When we have skill names that are very arcane and grand in style, "Sic 'Em" just ruins the feel of things. A farmer with his hunting dogs might use speech like this, sure, but someone who studies lore to the extent that he/she can muster the forces of nature should be using a far more impressive command.

    It is a little thing, but Turbine is usually good at this, and I would be very disappointed if this name went live.

    So I'm not just criticising, here's an alternative name suggestion: Beacon of Beasts (since it attracts all of the animals to the selected mob).

    -Bel
    This is my opinion as well. I don't dislike 'Sic 'em' because it is potentially lore breaking, the name just doesn't befit a legendary skill. Beacon of Beasts, or (as one person on the first page suggested) Charge of Oromë would be much more fitting.

  14. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Mar-Evayave View Post
    So why not "sic 'em"? I could totally see some old medieval hunter out with his dogs shouting, "Sic 'em!"
    But isn't it American English?
    "I think we can all agree that more options for everyone is always a positive thing." --Sapience

  15. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Macroscian View Post
    Having played Hunter through YEARS of continuous nerfs, I will get rather angry if there's no regular reaction to a class that has been op for a period: there's always a nerf headed that way. No nerf, no balance. We shall see how the LM compares with other classes on release.
    Trait trees are a de facto nerf on many classes. Especially so for LMs whose strength was in being able to combine the dps, debuffs and cc. Everyone's a hunter. Be happy.

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herwegur View Post
    I think the matter of golf/football and post-medieval colloquialisms is not whether they occur in Tolkien's works at large - and they do - but in what context they occur. For example, the phrases you quoted earlier are from the "Hobbit" where they come up in mundane situations, in conversations/interactions between Bilbo and dwarves - and the narrative style there is appropriately more grounded, slapstick, and and easy-going. I have no trouble picturing hobbits playing golf in the Shire, or dwarves playing football in open courts. I can even picture an Orc camp where "sic em!" is constantly shouted (just as we have the documented Orc-spoken "Leg it!" in "Two Towers." Tolkien did actually base Orcs' gruff manner of talking on WWI soldiers from his personal war experience, as post-medieval as it gets).

    But even though golf and football and "leg it!" have their place in Middle Earth, we certainly don't hear these words in Rivendell. Or in the golden hall of Rohan. Or in the Gondorian throne room. Neither among the Elves, nor among the learned human scholars. A poignant sense of awe and wonder descends, and mundane "real-life" modern phrases and terms disappear. Context is everything... "sic em" could be a nice monster-player skill name creep-side. Perfect for a pack of nasty boggarts or pale-folk. But I simply can't picture a sage of ancient knowledge - such as the lore-master figure is - resorting to such gruff "orcish" mannerisms.
    And...

    Quote Originally Posted by Belnavar View Post
    Well, in fairness, The Hobbit has a very different style to The Lord of the Rings, and it is my understanding that Tolkien wanted to rewrite it to better fit with the mythos he created later. A lof of stuff in The Hobbit is a little out of sync with what follows, such as the ridiculous Elves, which lack the elegance of the LOTR ones. I wouldn't like the game to adopt the cheesy, childish style of the former over the grandness of the latter.

    The problem is the name sounds very colloquial and modern. When we have skill names that are very arcane and grand in style, "Sic 'Em" just ruins the feel of things. A farmer with his hunting dogs might use speech like this, sure, but someone who studies lore to the extent that he/she can muster the forces of nature should be using a far more impressive command.

    It is a little thing, but Turbine is usually good at this, and I would be very disappointed if this name went live.

    So I'm not just criticising, here's an alternative name suggestion: Beacon of Beasts (since it attracts all of the animals to the selected mob).

    -Bel
    You both make excellent points. I guess context would have a role. Of course, things get said in the heat of battle that one ordinarily wouldn't say in peaceful gatherings. But if those peaceful gatherings are then ambushed, those same things might be heard again. So it might be scandalous to hear cruder talk in royal places or in Rivendell, but if those places were sieged, I doubt anyone would much care what is being said.

    But yes, you both do have good points, and in that light I would be inclined to agree. I don't find "Sic 'em" to be un-lore-ish and it sounds kinda cool (considering what the skill actually does) but I wouldn't say it's the best name that could be used. I must say, though, Bel. that I thought that said Bacon of Beasts. I had a moment of O.o and had to take second look before I finally read it properly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thoroval View Post
    But isn't it American English?
    It depends. "sic" as in "such" is generally Scottish. Not sure on the origin of the derogatory term. As for "sic 'em", it is not really from anywhere in particular, from what I understand. It's actually just a slurred version of "seek them/him" and sometimes is misspelled as sickum. I've been unable to find the origin -- just that the term dates back to the early 1800s.
    R5 105 GRD Marevayave - Leader of Riddermarked For Death
    R8 105 MNS Fayah/100 LM Siennah/105 HNT Dinenol/100 RK Dhurik
    100 CHN Alachas/85 CPT Dinfaerien/60 BUR Dhax/62 WDN Godoric
    R9 105 MNS Fayeh (alt Wilya) - Lonely Mountain Band @ Landroval

  17. #67
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    Question

    Eeeeh... no thanks to that pet skill name, be more creative, please. Also it doesn't mention anything whether KoA/blue will affect our morale healing skills-- inner flame, beacon, water-lore, wisdom.

    But I am curious as to how the ember spread works, does it apply 1? Would it apply more than 1 if target has 3 max stacks? Would target have to be hit again to apply stack 2, and another hit for stack 3 to others?
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  18. #68
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    How you know dev diaries didn't deliver anything substantial: When the most talked about topic is the NAME of a skill...

    I'm just at a lack of words (not at the community but at Turbine for delivering diaries like these). It would be so much faster just to sum up all diaries in the following all-class diary:

    "We're changing all classes. You'll get three trees that does slightly different compared to each other. Some skills will change and other might remain the same. All information in this diary is ofc subject to change without any prior notice."
    [SIZE=3][COLOR=#008000]If it moves, kill it - Then look for more things to kill[/COLOR][/SIZE]

  19. #69

    Loremaster in Helms Deep!

    These changes make me definitely want to play my LM thoroughly again! I cannot wait!
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  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fralin View Post
    How you know dev diaries didn't deliver anything substantial: When the most talked about topic is the NAME of a skill...

    I'm just at a lack of words (not at the community but at Turbine for delivering diaries like these). It would be so much faster just to sum up all diaries in the following all-class diary:

    "We're changing all classes. You'll get three trees that does slightly different compared to each other. Some skills will change and other might remain the same. All information in this diary is ofc subject to change without any prior notice."
    My thoughts exactly.
    The only thing I know after all these diaries is that every class gets 3 builds:
    - dps
    - solo/survival
    - specialist.
    New skills are mentioned, but based on the information given you really cannot say anything about them yet.

    These dev diaries could do with some more in-depth information and screenshots. The current dev diaries look like rough early sketches rather then a nearly finished product.
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  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalderic View Post
    My thoughts exactly.
    The only thing I know after all these diaries is that every class gets 3 builds:
    - dps
    - solo/survival
    - specialist.
    ...
    I was thinking the same. And honestly, I don't see much of a ''change'' there.

    I was hoping for real strong CC (and of course the appropriate content/raids for its uses).

    Playing a Red skilled LM feels like playing a DPS class.
    I hope the changes make each class feel unique again.
    My opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I am right.

    I was not lying. I said things that later on seemed to be untrue.

  22. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Crell_1 View Post
    ...It's the attention to details about our EXISTING classes that's going to help it continue to feel more like the character we've leveled up than a new one entirely.
    This to me is key. What about continuity in a character's development? After the changes in HD, will it still feel like the same character? (You know the old philosophical puzzler: if you dismantle a boat made of wooden boards piece by piece, and reassemble it -piece by piece - using new boards, is it the same boat?)

  23. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by bohbashum View Post
    actually sic'em is ofc what dog handlers would call to make there animal attack. it's very Tolkien considering he came from Britain and around WW1 era when dog were used in fights (infact both wars). he probably wouldn't have questioned someone roll playing one of shire folk using the phase.

    so I see no harm in it. just a name at the end of the day and if we're going to be critical of the names rather than the actual game... I don't tolkien at all would be happy with this game for a start so the name would be the least of his concerns.
    Hmm. Makes me wonder. Now that you mention it... Didn't Farmer Maggot use this phrase at some point?

  24. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Belnavar View Post
    Beacon of Beasts (since it attracts all of the animals to the selected mob).

    -Bel
    ...ooooo... now that's interesting! Or how about, Pack Mentality. Or, Stampede.

  25. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Atheling View Post
    Trait trees are a de facto nerf on many classes. Especially so for LMs whose strength was in being able to combine the dps, debuffs and cc. ....
    This is what I was starting to wonder, after reading the (attractively packaged) developer's diaries on LM. There are some nice new abilities... but wait, my old LM could do a lot of these things, at will, before...

 

 
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