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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Sep 2010

    Recommended progression for learning how to raid?

    Never expected her to get this far, but my teenage daughter's minstrel just hit lvl 85. We duo'd most of the quests in the game to level while I used my Guardian. Now she would like to experience raiding.

    She's never really needed to heal. She loves blowing stuff up with her AoEs in War-speech. I've never had to do much tanking obviously (most content is designed for solo and there was always two of us). My Guardian has been mostly geared towards max'ing Might for more damage and running in Overpower mode (she loved giving me grief about lousy damage and pulling my own weight. ).

    Wondering what might be a good progression for both of us to learn doing our proper roles in instances and then up to raids. I'm in a good guild which would probably give some support to neophytes. I've not done much with instances or raids myself because, until recently, my computer hadn't been able to handle them. :P Now we both have decent rigs.

    Start in 3 mans? 6 mans? Obviously we would read up on them to know ahead of time to try know exactly what we're getting into so we don't let the group down completely.

    Which instances might be the easiest place to start? Which would be the hardest and that we should avoid 'til we have more experience?

  2. #2
    I'm not a healer, but surely school and library are very easy (a bad warden soloes them without any problem), so she can make lot of mistakes.
    About 6-men, sambrog is easy as well (you can complete it without healer)

    in any case, if you make instances with kinmates, surely they'll forgive some errors

    edit: as for raids unfortunately i've very little experience and only as dps, sorry

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    New England USA
    If she hasn't been healing then I suggest she start by just healing you. Run into an orc village and pull 6-8 orcs and have her sit back and heal. There are a lot of heals that require deeds to be completed. She have to learn what to do to minimize aggro and then what to do if she's attacked while trying to heal. Good practice for you as well as a tank. Get one of the healers from your kin to tutor her as she's healing you. Then move to the 3-6 man instances and get comfortable with them before trying a raid.
    Just my two cents. Good luck and have fun.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Quote Originally Posted by iuytewtruwer View Post
    I'm not a healer, but surely school and library are very easy (a bad warden soloes them without any problem), so she can make lot of mistakes.
    About 6-men, sambrog is easy as well (you can complete it without healer)
    Hehe, the point of these instances being easy actually means that they are rather bad for learning proper group roles, as most groups tend to farm them in speed-runs, which leaves little room to understand aggro-management and get actually used to healing.
    I think Stoneheight is a better instance for getting used to basic mechanics as it's rather slow-paced, not too hard but with enemies dealing noticable damage. Also has some interesting mechanics to learn for starters instead of just run-in-and-smash-everything. Great Goblin or Iobars Peak are in a similar league. As for 6-man instances, GB Maze, Glinghant or Bells of Dale would make good learning instances.

    Another more free-form challenge could be to fight some of the big spiders/trolls/trees in Limlight Gorge, check out how much you can handle while surviving/healing. They are designed for a group of level 75 players, but are still a nice benchmark at 85.
    In any case, make sure that whoever joins you for this understands that you're still learning basic group mechanics as well as instance mechanics. Many groups by default will assume that everyone already knows how to farm a given instance (esp. Sammy/School).
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  5. #5
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Sunny SoCal, USA
    Welcome to the fun world of grouping

    If you're both looking to learn how to do it, then I think the person who recommended 'pull a village of orcs' is a great way to start. There are tons of level 83-85 orc camps and you, as the guard, work on holding 8-10 mobs and she keeps you up... both of you can learn some aggro management that way.

    As someone mentioned, you guys have tons of traits to work on (first panel that opens when you press shift + L ) that will make you more effective at your group roles.

    If you start finding that too easy or too boring, I would recommend then trying library and school, two very easy 3-mans at level 85. If you two are doing amazing there, then someone recommended Stoneheight; if you can find a DPSer to help you with that, then it will go by a little quicker and be excellent practice. You can start on t1 for that, and once you get better, push it to t2. All the while working on class deeds... might want to pick up some skill deed accelerators if you'll be doing them consistently over an hour and half :P

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  6. #6
    As Grimdi said, I think School/Lib are too easy; even if you play bad in solo, you cannot die (Lib challenge can nearly be done afk by heavy classes with some solo gear...)
    You could try first some 3-Man T2 like SH, Stoneheight, Seat of the Great Goblin, Webs of the Scuttledells, etc... then some 6-man in duo/trio (with a DPS to complete tank/healer) (although T1 are too easy also)

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    First of all congratulations on your Daughter getting to 85, always a nice achievement.
    Second though, your daughter's need to learn about grouping now that she is 85 makes me a little sad. It used to be that group content was a natural part of leveling up and the majority of people hitting the level cap would have a fair idea of how to function in a group, not just as their class but generally as a player. The sad part about it is that there is much group content still there throughout the whole game but the leveling process has now been altered so that none of it is necessary anymore. Given multiple ways of doing something, people will general take the easier path. And finding pugs for below level cap content is difficult.
    I don't want to sound like this is a slight on the parenting skills of the OP but i do feel that if/when my own children are a bit older and want to play this game that i will use my kin and network of other friends to make sure that we do group content all throughout the game so that they have the same group skills i had when i first hit level cap. I know this might be difficult if both of you are new but it is possible if you are in a good kin, indeed you say that you are. It is just sad that Turbine no longer does anything to encourage people to learn this sort of thing before the hit the 'endgame'.
    Anyway, well done and i wish you both luck and hope you enjoy grouping and do well in it.
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  8. #8
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    That's awesome you guys play together! Wish I could say the same, but I'm the only LOTR fan in this family.

    Good tanks and healers are invaluable. Plenty of brains here to pick, whether in kin or on forum. I second - er, third? - Grimdi's suggestions for Stoneheight and Limlight Gorge.

    (If I may be allowed to wax nostalgic...) I started out as a solo player, but after joining my current kin I learned how to play in a group in Foundry (Rise of Isengard level 75 6man), first on hunter then as champ tank, figuring I'd be a better DPSer if I understood tanking. A lot to learn and yes, some frustration, but overall a lot of fun. Anyways, Foundry involved a bit of everything - crowd control, situational awareness, prioritizing targets, coordination (especially the first and last bosses), distributed damage, fellowship maneuvers, positioning/line-of-sight/staying in range of healers, timing your pulls, not to mention how threat works - so for me it was a great tutorial for the RoI raids. And generally speaking, with 5 others in different roles, not just DPS+healer+tank, I learned what they were doing and how I could complement their abilities; plus we had more leeway in case the main tank/healer went down. I doubt I'd have had this experience with the currently popular instances; here's hoping Turbine scales it someday.
    Last edited by Saniko; Sep 24 2013 at 05:19 AM.
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  9. #9
    I have been raiding for a while on my hunter, but recently leveled my mini to 85 and was pretty nervous about my skills healing when entering group content, even though I had some previous experience healing 6 mans and a couple lower level raids while leveling. I found that my confidence increased quite a bit after doing a run through all four Fornost T2 instances. Fornost Fire especially is one which will require some decent heals to complete the challenge, but isn't overly difficult and is often run by kins and pugs. GB Thadur is also another interesting 6 man to do on challenge mode, because DPS will be taking considerable damage during the fight, but it also isn't extremely difficult to complete. For moving on to raids, definitely start with Batte for Erebor T1. It is still run pretty frequently by groups, the mechanics of it are fairly straightforward, and it will give you a good feel for keeping a group alive while everyone is taking a decent amount of damage. After that, you should be able to move on to some of the more difficult raids

  10. #10
    Just a quick point of terminology (not to be a smartie-pants, just to help avoid confusion).

    "Raids" and "raiding" strictly speaking refers to 12-player content. And even then, there is differentiation between skirmish raids (skraids), lair raids (single boss in a room) and multi-boss raids (several bosses, usually with 'trash' pulls between them).

    In recent months the term "raid" has been used more often to refer to any instanced group content, whether 2, 3, 6 or 12 player. Clearly this definition is the one which will become the norm, however for now when you say "raid" not everyone is going to understand the word the same way.

    That said, the biggest difference in mindest between landscape content and any instanced content is that in the latter you have to be prepared to die. A lot. Really, a lot. Bosses in instances are far tougher than anything you face on landscape and fights are often scripted such that particular events and attacks happen at particular intervals (at morale thresholds, or on a timer, or some other event). As well as learning what skills are required for different situations, you also need to understand correct positioning, be aware of environmental threats (pools, wounds/fears requiring pots, corruptions requiring removal (or not), inductions, bubbles, note what bosses say).

    While you learn all these things, you will die. You are expected to learn from what killed you and how to counter it. If you enjoy this challenge, a whole new world of gameplay awaits you. If not, you'll get frustrated and risk falling out over silly mistakes, in which case just walk away and try again another day. I actually suggest *not* reading up on them first. Walk in, pull some stuff, laugh as you get obliterated, try again. Learning is a lot of the satisfaction.

    As suggested above, pulling large numbers of landscape mobs is a good start. Duo-ing skirmishes is also entry-level. You can set skirmishes to 3-player, or tier 2 difficulty, to make them harder (you get different mobs and tougher Lieutenants in 3-player mode). After that, scaled instances like Library and School are good learning. Halls of Night is fun.

    At some point you are going to need a third player though, because the range of stuff which can be duo-ed by relatively inexperienced players isn't great. Only skirmishes have a specific 2-player mode. Easier 3-player instances can be duo-ed but aren't designed for it.

    Once you have some confidence playing together, advertise for your own groups. I guarantee you that typing "Inexperienced groupers looking to learn instance play, death guaranteed but fun and progress too. Helpful veterans and willing newbies equally welcome" will see you inundated with replies. You'll gather a good friends list of reliable and fun people that way. You'll meet some idiots and some hopeless people too, but that's life (and that's what ignore list is for).

    Have fun
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  11. #11
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    your mind
    The game provides the progression for you. :-)

    Level 20ish instances (GBs) are designed to teach you the basic mechanics.

    Level 30 stuff has less tolerance.

    Level 40s teach you more, and level 50s a lot more (target selection becomes more critical).

    Moria instances teach off tanking/dual tanking among other things, like group coordination in Vile Maw.

    Dar Narbulug then incorporates all that combined knowledge in the raid.

    You need that knowledge of the level 65 In Their Absence instances too, from three-persons up through Ost Dunhoth. Same with Isengard. And Barad Guldur (which scales up to 85 now).

    So, instead of throwing her into the deep end, with a whole suite of healing skills and complete unfamiliarity, I'll suggest what I've suggested to others before, this game permits an infinite number of alts.

    She can create a second mini, and run through the instance quickly, join up and heal on the landscape content. If you pair with her, don't use a tank class, but a burg or champ or something like that which needs healing and causes her to learn how to not pull threat by heals.

    At level 20, Great Barrows Maze becomes available and teaches the basics of grouping via it's mechanics. It won't be as overwhelming as confronting all those skills now, and having no idea which ones work better in various circumstances.

    As she gets higher in level, and gains new skills, it's easier to incorporate them in her abilities exploring how each one works in various instances, it's strengths, weaknesses, etc.

    The other thing to look for would be a good kin who can help mentor along the way. It sounds like you guys have been going it on your own. There's nothing worse than jumping into an instance with strangers shouting "need heals" and feeling all that pressure (healing can be the most stressful role) and not having a base of experience to know when things go wrong, it's not your responsibility.

    (Heck, I was healing a Moria instance the other day and a guy was saying he'd bail on the group 'cause he wasn't getting heals--when we hadn't even all gotten to the boss/prepared for the fight yet!)
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  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Tell your daughter to remain calm, don't panic, it is never the Healer's fault.

    You, on the other hand, might be in trouble... it's always the Tank's fault.
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  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by RJFerret View Post
    She can create a second mini, and run through the instance quickly, join up and heal on the landscape content. If you pair with her, don't use a tank class, but a burg or champ or something like that which needs healing and causes her to learn how to not pull threat by heals.
    That sounds like a very ambitious idea. But I believe its hopeless. Who is she going to run these instances with "quickly"? She will be in her twenties and moved out mums and dads, before she finds groups for old content on-level. She might even have her own family, before she finds a group of 5X willing to run Carn Dûm. Why bother going through all that, when you can start healing easy 85+ content using 4-5 skills?

    Healing is not so much about the actual skill-set. If you can heal on a Minstrel you can also heal on RK and Cappy, in a few hours of training. Heal and support is more about learning how to view things, while playing in groups. Keeping track of peoples health bars and where they stand, than reacting quickly or pro-actively. Getting your action bars, interface and keys organized, is actually the most important bit. Having everything set-up so its easy to reach so you don't have to think or search, makes all the difference. But you can learn these things in any instance, no need to go back to level 20, memorize outdated CJs and other ancient mechanics.

    Going to agree with most people here. They should start doing easy stuff like Hall of Night and School/Library, just to get the feeling of healing and tanking. If its to easy, pull more adds on the way to the boss. After that they can do harder 3-man or easy 6-man like Sammy and OE. First raid should probably be Flight T1, its not very heavy on the healer or the tank, allows a lot of mistakes since you're out of combat half the time. Joining Skraids is also a good way to learn raiding. Even if its dead easy, you get the hang of cross healing and keeping track of 12 players (instead of 3 or 6). Tank learns how to be a step ahead of everyone else to grab the mobs. Sadly no one runs these things any more, but Flight T1 has very similar mechanics.

  14. #14
    I'm a bit bewildered by the fact that you say you're in a good kin yet you haven't been chatting, consulting or interacting with them about group play in your leveling process? It's time to talk with the raid leader/person who gets most group runs off the ground and see about some mentoring.

    I've been around for awhile and doing raids since the Rift, but when I've leveled an alt, I often had an 'Aha' moment when I read a skill description and I finally saw what it really did, or I simply asked under what circumstances I would use a skill that was obviously geared towards group play. I bugged one of the experienced people about legacies, about skill rotations or how a particular piece of gear impacted my build. That was before even setting foot in an instance with my new class.

    Going forward, there are good suggestions here, from various on level instances to running under leveled stuff too - sometimes the mobs still hit hard, or you need to learn a mechanic such as watching for debuffs (besides the virtues that you can attain in some instances). Don't underestimate the learning experience of running something like Skumfil to start practicing your group skills, even if it's just the 2 of you.

    Grouping is a lot of fun, I hope you work your way through many that the game offers; it's a great satisfaction to beat something that gave you a challenge, and a challenge can come in many forms.

  15. #15
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    WBS is offline Weatherstock Wayfarer
    Destroyer of Worlds
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Quote Originally Posted by Namesse View Post
    I'm a bit bewildered by the fact that you say you're in a good kin yet you haven't been chatting, consulting or interacting with them about group play in your leveling process? It's time to talk with the raid leader/person who gets most group runs off the ground and see about some mentoring.
    These were my thoughts exactly.

    Ask people in your Kinship to help you learn, it's by far and away the best way.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Something you may want to consider would be Grand Stair (Moria). It has multiple bosses and trash mobs to practice with, you do not need a full group to kill things in there, and there is a high demand for it (at least on my server) because it has tons of deeds. I second the suggestions to look for some other ways for her to practice healing just you first (Limlight Gorge is great for this), then take a few higher-level friends/kinnies into Grand Stair so she gets a feel for how it works, and finally go in with a group that is closer to the level of the instance (56 if I recall correctly?) so she can put her healing skills to the test.

    Then again, if what she enjoys best is blowing things up in warspeech, there isn't any reason she can't do that in a group. There's obviously less demand for it, but if you have a group of friends or kinnies who don't fuss too much over the perfect combination, she can still see many instances while playing the way she likes most. As she progresses in raid level, however, she will certainly be asked to heal and be expected to do so competently, so she should be working on that if she wants to get into the more challenging 12-mans eventually.

    Btw, what server are you two on? I bet you'll find some folks on the forums willing to do some practice runs. Finding the right people to do this with is important, because sadly there are a few folks out there that aren't terribly tolerant of those who are new. Pick your fellows carefully and make sure they understand your level of experience and desire to get practice and advice.

    Good luck!

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    your mind
    Quote Originally Posted by clarabelle View Post
    That sounds like a very ambitious idea. But I believe its hopeless. Who is she going to run these instances with "quickly"? She will be in her twenties and moved out mums and dads, before she finds groups for old content on-level.
    It only takes a couple hours to get a character into the 20s.

    There are TONS of new players, check Bree (perhaps not at the hours you play?). Folks will join GBs, or skirms, at any level. I used to keep a character camped at level 24 just to join the newbie runs. Now it's Moria level.

    I agree, certainly not CD, I never suggested CD, people solo CD.

    I'll also disagree about learning healing skills. Yes, it's technically possible to learn all the healing skills at once, but it's overwhelming. Also people teaching that way typically gloss over important info.

    The first time I healed an instance, I learned immediately to not use the skills I was. I was out of power. (This was a long time before the revamp and before power was made moot.) That experience showed that other skills, moderate heals, were efficient. The same thing still applies, only now it's a matter of time, for heals per second. Legacies on legendaries affect that too, such that different skills will be more useful. So another player's suggestion of just spamming X skill might not be effective.

    Well, limitedly effective to get through a specific instance with overpowered players that don't need heals in a Sambrog. But to actually heal? Not so much.

    The other factor is traiting, as different healers have different styles. So trying to learn on the fly from multiple sources can be conflicting. There's also the mental factor of the person, more reactive thinking style or proactive? Trying these things for oneself is insightful.

    PS: And of course one would play both, the high level character if nobody's available for low level runs, and vice-versa. It's not like you only play the lower level until you feel ready for the high, but mix it up.
    Last edited by RJFerret; Sep 26 2013 at 02:24 PM.
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  18. #18
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Getting your traits you need for healing/tanking would be the first thing you should start working on. Next make yourself familiar with all the "panic" skills you have (fears etc. when things go wrong)
    Third step would be working on Li's that make healing/tanking easier for you, I'ed suggest either have a look how other people built their Li's or simply ask other players if they have some special tactics or tricks they could share with you.



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