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Thread: GUNS

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  1. #1
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    Lightbulb GUNS

    If its true that the game has black powder than why don't we have guns like WoW RoM? The game could even have the musketeer class!

    Like I said before, if you someone with authority could tell me whether or not you will do it than please do so. If not than please tell me.

    Thank you for listening, and feedback?
    Last edited by Sapience; Sep 23 2013 at 11:37 AM. Reason: Turned off the excessive use of exclamation marks.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miven-Lionsheild View Post
    If its true that the game has black powder than why don't we have guns like WoW RoM? The game could even have the musketeer class!

    Like I said before, if you someone with authority could tell me whether or not you will do it than please do so. If not than please tell me.

    Thank you for listening, and feedback?
    Not sure if troll thread, or serious.... This is LoTRO, unlike WoW, we have a LORE. Tolkien had no GUNS in his BOOKS, so, due to LORE, there are no GUNS in LOTRO.

    Seriously, are you trolling us?

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  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by robbie1435 View Post
    Not sure if troll thread, or serious.... This is LoTRO, unlike WoW, we have a LORE. Tolkien had no GUNS in his BOOKS, so, due to LORE, there are no GUNS in LOTRO.

    Seriously, are you trolling us?

    Glorgnorbor
    Just because WoW has guns doesn't mean it doesn't have lore. Your arrogance blinds you.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by bamatram View Post
    Just because WoW has guns doesn't mean it doesn't have lore. Your arrogance blinds you.
    Really? Never heard of anyone who wrote a WoW book stating exactly what happened. *shrug*
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  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by robbie1435 View Post
    Really? Never heard of anyone who wrote a WoW book stating exactly what happened. *shrug*
    What do you mean what happened?

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by bamatram View Post
    What do you mean what happened?
    Well, Tolkien wrote a book(Which is the lore to follow), explaining the story of Middle-Earth, and the path we are taking(Following the Fellowship).
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  7. #7
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    No guns! The closest thing to guns they had was the dynamite stuff Saruman used to breach Helm's Deep, and the Ents were really pissed off with it. Dwarfs might have used explosives for mining, but I'm not sure. You use Powder Kegs in game though...

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by robbie1435 View Post
    Not sure if troll thread, or serious.... This is LoTRO, unlike WoW, we have a LORE. Tolkien had no GUNS in his BOOKS, so, due to LORE, there are no GUNS in LOTRO.

    Seriously, are you trolling us?

    Glorgnorbor
    Lore is one of the main reasons that turbine cant put guns in lotro, not only that, but, if they stray to far from the "Lore" of lotro warner brothers can sue them, thus getting lotro shut down

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barney1119 View Post
    Lore is one of the main reasons that turbine cant put guns in lotro, not only that, but, if they stray to far from the "Lore" of lotro warner brothers can sue them, thus getting lotro shut down
    So could Tolkien Estate.
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  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by robbie1435 View Post
    Not sure if troll thread, or serious.... This is LoTRO, unlike WoW, we have a LORE. Tolkien had no GUNS in his BOOKS, so, due to LORE, there are no GUNS in LOTRO.
    Glorgnorbor

    Having read The Silmarillion, The Hobbit, The Lord Of The Rings, Unfinished Tales and parts of the History Of Middle Earth I am struggling to find any reference to Rune-Keepers or Riding Goats, or Wardens, Pumpkin Masks, Pirate Festivals, etc.

    Perhaps you could point me to the LORE that deals with those aspects of the game.

    Thanks.

    For the record I think guns is a big no-no, for rather obvious reasons.

    But an appeal to "LORE" is not sufficient reason in and of itself given how far Turbine/WB have deviated from LORE so far.

    All The Best

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Egilric View Post
    Having read The Silmarillion, The Hobbit, The Lord Of The Rings, Unfinished Tales and parts of the History Of Middle Earth I am struggling to find any reference to Rune-Keepers or Riding Goats, or Wardens, Pumpkin Masks, Pirate Festivals, etc.

    Perhaps you could point me to the LORE that deals with those aspects of the game.

    Thanks.

    For the record I think guns is a big no-no, for rather obvious reasons.

    But an appeal to "LORE" is not sufficient reason in and of itself given how far Turbine/WB have deviated from LORE so far.

    All The Best
    rune keepers- i agree, but turbine had to add some class. adding another warrior or archer would be boring, so they added another magic class, things which MMOs pretty much require. it's not that bad like guns.
    goats, wardens, pumpkin masks, pirate- it's not that impossible; goats can be tamed and maby ridden on if they are big enough, it's not that anti lore. wardens are just javeling throwing soliders, what's the problem? pumnkin masks, again, isn't something bad. we got to have festivals, also for holidays, it's like that in all online games. pirate is pretty anti lore, but not as bad as guns. it's silly, but ok. if this things aren't spesificly written in the books, it doesn't mean that they don't exist.

  12. #12
    Lore discussions are alot like law discussions. You have the letter and you have the spirit. No one except for Tolkien himself (and even then not all the time) was able to match the letter of the lore. Every iteration, from LotRO to Jackson to Bakshi have all added their own touches to what Tolkien wrote. You pretty much have to, because it is impossible to fully realize a massive book to any other medium going word for word.

    In the spirit of the lore, I think Turbine has done a good job. Rune Keepers and Lore Masters are not specifically mentioned in Tolkien, but they came about because people wanted a "wizard" class. Now as we know there were five wizards in Middle Earth. Turbine knew people wanted magic and gave them a "lesser magic" that could sell the product without destroying the lore. Goats were the same thing. You needed a mount in Moria, but Tolkien specifically says that horses won't enter the mine. It took me quite a while to wrap my head around goats... in fact, I still choose to run in Moria, but it is within the realm of possibility. After all people have historically ridden everything from oxen to elephants; I don't see why some form of primordial goat couldn't have been domesticated in the same way. Pumpkin masks? There were much stranger festivals in our real Middle Ages that could have been added in. Pirates? A stretch, but for a couple days a year... could be much worse.

    All this, however, is beside the point. Guns are not in the spirit of the lore. They never have been and never will be, not just in LotRO, but in anything that had anything to do with Tolkien.
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  13. #13
    While I agree that guns in Middle Earth just don't seem to fit, there is much more precedence for a primitive gun being used by a person in Middle Earth than something like dwarves running around shooting Sith lighting out of their fingers.

    There is a clear and established precedent for black powder being used as a propellant in Middle Earth. (Fireworks)

    In real history, primitive firearms were used much earlier than a lot of people usually realize. There is some evidence showing the Chinese may have been using some type of "hand cannon" in the 1100s or before. It is thought some Mongols may have been armed with primitive chinese firearms and black powder bombs "grenades" in the 1240s. There is documentation from the 14th century of Muslims using some sort of hand held cannon in battle, and there have been some big cannons found from the 14th century as well.

    No doubt there would have been people in Middle Earth experimenting with the chemicals and elements found in the ground. We know Saruman did and came up with some sort of Blasting Powder. Whether or not Tolkien intended it to be black powder or not, I don't think anyone knows but the similarities are enough.

    Something similar would have been used for Gandalf's fireworks. We know ME to be a "low magic" type of place. Nothing to overt. Gandalf and Saruman seemed to me to be much more akin to an alchemist than a wizard in many respects, when comparing to "Wizards" from other story universes.

    History shows us that the Chinese and others were relatively (in the grand scheme of things) quick to go from discovery of black powder, to being able to fire a projectile using it as a propellant. One would think the lore masters of Middle Earth would come to the same conclusions and possibilities.
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  14. #14
    It's also worth noting that the only person that used something that could be construed as black powder for the purpose of weaponry was evil. The Third Age alone was over three thousand years long. In our history that would be going from Homeric combat to nuclear weapons and everything in between. Tolkien, however, mentions the same arms and armor from the First Age battles of the Silmarillion all the way to the end of his writings. Glamdring was around six and a half thousand years old when Gandalf found it.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sigram View Post
    While I agree that guns in Middle Earth just don't seem to fit, there is much more precedence for a primitive gun being used by a person in Middle Earth than something like dwarves running around shooting Sith lighting out of their fingers.
    No, in point of fact there's precedent for neither.

    There is a clear and established precedent for black powder being used as a propellant in Middle Earth. (Fireworks)
    Yes, by Gandalf. But he's a Wizard, you know? Knows lots of clever stuff. That doesn't mean it's going to be common knowledge even among loremasters. (No more than it was in Europe in Roger Bacon's time).

    In real history, primitive firearms were used much earlier than a lot of people usually realize. There is some evidence showing the Chinese may have been using some type of "hand cannon" in the 1100s or before. It is thought some Mongols may have been armed with primitive chinese firearms and black powder bombs "grenades" in the 1240s. There is documentation from the 14th century of Muslims using some sort of hand held cannon in battle, and there have been some big cannons found from the 14th century as well.
    Middle-earth's got a persistent 'Dark Ages' Western European ambience - hence, for example, the lack of crossbows in the books - and that means no firearms, either. Out of context. Too early.

    No doubt there would have been people in Middle Earth experimenting with the chemicals and elements found in the ground. We know Saruman did and came up with some sort of Blasting Powder. Whether or not Tolkien intended it to be black powder or not, I don't think anyone knows but the similarities are enough.
    Saruman isn't 'people', he's another Wizard, a Maia of Aulë and that's why he has a thing for technology (just as Sauron does - he used to be one of Aulë's folk, too). And as I said earlier, the use of such technologies in war is portrayed as something evil which is why it's firmly limited to the bad guys. So plot-wise there is no real scope for any of the good guys to be weaponising it.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Egilric View Post
    Having read The Silmarillion, The Hobbit, The Lord Of The Rings, Unfinished Tales and parts of the History Of Middle Earth I am struggling to find any reference to Rune-Keepers or Riding Goats, or Wardens, Pumpkin Masks, Pirate Festivals, etc.

    Perhaps you could point me to the LORE that deals with those aspects of the game.

    Thanks.

    For the record I think guns is a big no-no, for rather obvious reasons.

    But an appeal to "LORE" is not sufficient reason in and of itself given how far Turbine/WB have deviated from LORE so far.

    All The Best
    The Rune keeper was a little to far from lore for me...but what ever...

    but the pumpkin festival mask? a random hobbit could have made a mask shop and sold fun masks for hobbit children... the warden is a guy with a shield and weapon and throws javelins...that`s VERY similar to the riders of Rohan actually

    A goat is a bit weird...as I have NEVER heard of a giant goat but I never read the simirlian and I don`t even know how it`s spelled...lol

    and the pirate festival? there WERE pirates in middle earth known as the Back Corsairs and they were GOING to attack minas tirith but the king of the dead showed up.

    So the only lore breaking thing that I worry about are the Rune Keepers

    as for what this post is about with guns? if they added that I would stop playing as it would be WAY beyond breaking lore for me...

    Maybe I`m too mouthy about my opinion as it does NOT rule the world.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Miven-Lionsheild View Post
    If its true that the game has black powder than why don't we have guns like WoW RoM?
    Black powder was discovered in 9th century China. Fireworks were invented soon after, but it took almost 400 years for the Chinese to develop the first, primitive firearms.

    The Lord of the Rings pulls from many periods in history, with each "nation" operating at a different technological level. Black powder essentially serves as a "future technology", introduced by one mad wizard to tip the balance in his own favor. As a general rule of siege warfare, the attacker must outnumber the defender ten to one to achieve victory. Castles and similar fortifications thus afford great strategic advantage to the holder. If you add up the numbers, orcs lack such a massive numerical advantage at Helm's Deep. Saruman cheats--uses black powder--to tip the scales to his advantage.

    In summation, the author uses gunpowder as a surprise element, not a technology in general use. Adding firearms and related warfare would dramatically change the historical setting and undermine the author's purpose.

  18. #18
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    *grumbles something about being too late, and therefore being not a wizard at all*
    Last edited by Rainothon; Sep 24 2013 at 03:36 AM. Reason: missed OP's last post. Need coffee now.

  19. #19
    I predict there will be catapulted goblin sappers and trolls with hand held slings firing goblin sappers at HD BBs - the days of 'guns' in LOTRO may be coming soon. I don't think the free peoples will get them tho.

 

 

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