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  1. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by elvenwarlord619 View Post
    On one hand, you are giving us very little substance but with the other hand trying to sell us this expansion pack. Transparency is at an all time low. All of these changes as they are put forth sound dandy but they are described very fluidly. I have a feeling there are things coming down the pipe not revealed in these diaries that I may not be a fan of.
    Beta is closed and Pre-Purchase is open. They have no incentive to give us any real information yet. If what they have to say is good they will attract buyers when Beta ends. If what they have to reveal is bad they haven't waived the chance of snookering some Pre-Purchasers to commit before the information is 100% out. The fact that they are revealing so little is probably evidence of the fact that they aren't confident in their new product release.
    Last edited by bastiat1; Sep 20 2013 at 10:09 AM.
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  2. #52
    Wow... Did I call that or what. "Still Whining Louis!"-Lestat

  3. #53
    I like the fact that the devs and some of the players, who reply to this thread, who play hunter seem to be players with mediocre skills and knowledge of the class when Bowmaster (red) trait-line is considered to be the "main" or "go-to" trait line. None of your hunters would put out the dps a well built and well played hunter who used the "go-to" Huntsman (blue) trait-line with, probably, 2 Bowmaster (red) traits added in for the 2 trait-line set bonus. Maybe you've been using strength stance since SoA as well? This is of course insulting to you, but don't get too down, it's very cute.
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  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cred.Iam View Post
    I like the fact that the devs and some of the players, who reply to this thread, who play hunter seem to be players with mediocre skills and knowledge of the class when Bowmaster (red) trait-line is considered to be the "main" or "go-to" trait line. None of your hunters would put out the dps a well built and well played hunter who used the "go-to" Huntsman (blue) trait-line with, probably, 2 Bowmaster (red) traits added in for the 2 trait-line set bonus. Maybe you've been using strength stance since SoA as well? This is of course insulting to you, but don't get too down, it's very cute.
    I've been using 4R/3B and no, never used Strength Stance. And obviously, devs can see what most people use, so if they say that bowmaster tends to be the core usage of Hunters, I'm inclined to agree with them, particularly since it's my core build as a more casual player, which is what the majority of the players are.

    Maybe if you're a min-maxer, you'll run the Huntsman line, but for the average player who wants a decent build with a more casual pace, Bowmaster is more than easy enough to do. Really, the only major difference for the more casual hunter between 4R/3B and 4B/3R is that one gives you an additional 8% reduction of induction skills/-30% Penetrating shot power usage (focus gain is useless as I'm never running out of focus with my rotation that has worked all game long) or +10% Pen. Shot Crit chance, -60 Heartseeker cooldown and +4%Ranged damage. You also choose between Improved Fleetness or Cool Burn legendary traits, neither of which I use often as the need hasn't arisen when playing the landscape.

    I prefer the Bowmaster as it fits my needs more. Something you need to learn, before you start insulting other players, is that your hardcore hunter usage and knowledge is in the minority. Most people who play aren't playing to get the absolute best out of their character. They're happy if their build works and really don't care that you can out DPS them as they aren't raiding, or doing instances or PvPing. And that's exactly why Turbine isn't spending a lot of time on raids, PvP and instances, most likely. Not enough people are playing that portion to warrant the investment.
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  5. #55
    Had to make my first post, given my similar confusion as to the "go-to" traitline being Red. Been running mainly blue since around level 55 or so, and no incentive to change yet. Most hunters (above a certain level) that I've seen seem to be doing the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by LethalLethality View Post
    (focus gain is useless as I'm never running out of focus with my rotation that has worked all game long)

    Improved Penetrating Shot.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by MonkeyFunker View Post
    Had to make my first post, given my similar confusion as to the "go-to" traitline being Red. Been running mainly blue since around level 55 or so, and no incentive to change yet. Most hunters (above a certain level) that I've seen seem to be doing the same.




    Improved Penetrating Shot.
    What about it? Just saying a skill name doesn't do anything to explain anything. Unless you're saying you're one of those people who just mashes 1 over and over again using the same skill and nothing else.

    My rotation for most battles is:
    (one or two enemies) Swift Bow, Pen Shot, Barbed Arrow, Pen Shot, Quick Shot, Pen Shot (repeat) with slight variations depending on circumstances.
    (three or more enemies) Rain of Thorns, Swift Bow, Pen Shot, Barbed Arrow, Pen Shot, Quick Shot, Pen Shot(mob usually dead by then, repeat on remaining rooted enemies, throwing a bards arrow in if needed)
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  7. #57
    It does seem like they gave us information that we already knew from the pre-order page. Also what ever happened to Kelsan? I thought that he was the Dev for the Huntes?
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  8. #58
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    Am I the only who finds these developer diaries absolutely useless? You might as well say "Yes, we're changing things" for each one. Without specifics, or even a rough outline of how the new trait trees will work, I might as well be reading the German version for all the information they actually convey.

  9. #59
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    Yes the Bowmaster is a common build. If you want big crits for your bio.
    With a main as a guard I never liked the damage dealers coming in with big crits early in a fight - "target" lighting up with heartseekers, cool burn and improved focus.

    I imagine the dev knows nothing of "Focus Burn". Every time the class gets a tweak I test the bowmaster line and I always do more dps on huntsman, I didn't want this to change but I'll do my tests and go bowmaster if that's the way to go.

    Non trappers may not be able to lay a skill trap in combat but have always had the option of crafted traps, a triple trap down for unexpected adds works wonders.

    As with all the dev diaries we have players with six plus years experience playing their class and various builds with devs who just don't have anything like the play time and understanding.

    In their place I would like to think I would have actually made the effort to be involved in the discussion process, perhaps talked with players who choose a particular build about why they make those choices. I still haven't seen any credible reasons for making a class revamp so late into the game, all I can think is that the current devs have an equal understanding of the code as to the classes they are working on.

    Edit: About that possibility of increased range for bowmasters. Can you fix the bug after 6 years where mobs at extreme range go into anti-exploit mode
    Last edited by Macdui; Sep 20 2013 at 12:17 PM.

  10. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by LethalLethality View Post
    What about it? Just saying a skill name doesn't do anything to explain anything. Unless you're saying you're one of those people who just mashes 1 over and over again using the same skill and nothing else.
    I'm implying that having too much focus is something that should never come up, masher or no. You have an easy "focus dump" that does decent damage with no induction and extra mitigation, and therefore it makes sense to generate focus as quickly as possible. This doesn't change if you are mashing Penetrating Shot, using a varied mix of skills, or if you are going through your skills in reverse alphabetical order (centered on the third letter in each skill name).

  11. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by LethalLethality View Post
    I've been using 4R/3B and no, never used Strength Stance. And obviously, devs can see what most people use, so if they say that bowmaster tends to be the core usage of Hunters, I'm inclined to agree with them, particularly since it's my core build as a more casual player, which is what the majority of the players are.

    Maybe if you're a min-maxer, you'll run the Huntsman line, but for the average player who wants a decent build with a more casual pace, Bowmaster is more than easy enough to do. Really, the only major difference for the more casual hunter between 4R/3B and 4B/3R is that one gives you an additional 8% reduction of induction skills/-30% Penetrating shot power usage (focus gain is useless as I'm never running out of focus with my rotation that has worked all game long) or +10% Pen. Shot Crit chance, -60 Heartseeker cooldown and +4%Ranged damage. You also choose between Improved Fleetness or Cool Burn legendary traits, neither of which I use often as the need hasn't arisen when playing the landscape.

    I prefer the Bowmaster as it fits my needs more. Something you need to learn, before you start insulting other players, is that your hardcore hunter usage and knowledge is in the minority. Most people who play aren't playing to get the absolute best out of their character. They're happy if their build works and really don't care that you can out DPS them as they aren't raiding, or doing instances or PvPing. And that's exactly why Turbine isn't spending a lot of time on raids, PvP and instances, most likely. Not enough people are playing that portion to warrant the investment.
    Benefits for anyone running Blueline over red. Trait Precision, + precision crit to your melee, + crit mag to your bow, - Merciful shot and -Needful haste CD's, grab the Erebor Armor 4b/2r I think or maybe its 4r/2b. Then you if you dip DEEP into blue and pull 5 blue, trait IF and whatever else. You can get all of your induction times except HS under 1 sec, while being able to move without losing focus, gaining +1/5secs, and increasing the ability to fire while moving. While not adding artificial threat to your damage, this part is useless if you never RUN in a group.

    So tell me why hitting faster, being able to move and reset without a focus loss or decrease, and being traited to join groups without gimping your dps do to artificial threat is a bad thing?
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  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aidus View Post
    Benefits for anyone running Blueline over red. Trait Precision, + precision crit to your melee, + crit mag to your bow, - Merciful shot and -Needful haste CD's, grab the Erebor Armor 4b/2r I think or maybe its 4r/2b. Then you if you dip DEEP into blue and pull 5 blue, trait IF and whatever else. You can get all of your induction times except HS under 1 sec, while being able to move without losing focus, gaining +1/5secs, and increasing the ability to fire while moving. While not adding artificial threat to your damage, this part is useless if you never RUN in a group.

    So tell me why hitting faster, being able to move and reset without a focus loss or decrease, and being traited to join groups without gimping your dps do to artificial threat is a bad thing?

    As I said, I'm not a min-maxer, so I'm not gonna go for Erebor armor when Hytbold Armor works fine, especially when it requires Instances and Skirmishes and such, which I don't do. I said the more casual player-base, which is the majority, not the hardcore min-maxers. Everything you've mentioned is what a hardcore player will do. You don't need any of that to complete landscape and Epic Quests (at least I haven't), and as I said in my prior post, most players aren't hardcore, which is why Turbine is moving away from raids, instances and PvP. It's not beneficial for them to spend that much time creating the content.
    Tarphindiel~Hu~100, Tolella~Mi~86, Ryeberry~Gu~80, Torfrik~Rk~80, Arindis~Be~60
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  13. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Idiotvillage View Post
    Critics should consider that trait sets can be switched out of combat. I think having trait sets is supposed to encourage switching sets based on circumstances rather than sticking with one build. Might have an aoe optimised trait set, one optimised for single target one and one for cc and movement. I am hoping the trait sets work like customisable stances.
    I hope everyone has maxed LI slots if that's the case, cuz you're looking at at least 6, plus Bridle, plus any extras you might need to be leveling for runes and relics.

  14. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by LethalLethality View Post
    As I said, I'm not a min-maxer, so I'm not gonna go for Erebor armor when Hytbold Armor works fine, especially when it requires Instances and Skirmishes and such, which I don't do. I said the more casual player-base, which is the majority, not the hardcore min-maxers. Everything you've mentioned is what a hardcore player will do. You don't need any of that to complete landscape and Epic Quests (at least I haven't), and as I said in my prior post, most players aren't hardcore, which is why Turbine is moving away from raids, instances and PvP. It's not beneficial for them to spend that much time creating the content.
    I am not sure I would consider myself a min/maxer. I have one gold drop (cloak), the rest crafted or or bartered. Even without the Regular Erebor set (which only costs seals) that trait set up will provide all the benefits identified. I ran it when I came back to the game and had crafted armor, when I got the Hybolt set, continued on with the Erebor. I think we define Hardcore players very differently. From my perspective the hardcore players have to have the best gear available at all times, spurn those who don't think the same, mock those for build outs different than theirs, etc...

    Honestly the 5 blues really not that popular a build out, but it is extremely flexible and functional.

    As far as "raiders" and content for that target group. I agree the raiders are not the largest part of the player base, but I believe they represent the cutting edge of build outs, play styles, and strategy development for dealing with situations. The fact is that completely solo players (those that "don't do instances or skirmishes") are not a majority to as well. Most players fall somewhere in the middle, and like to do some instanced content, some solo content, some crafting, etc. Without those folks who truly dig the grouped content and want to complete it better stronger faster than they have before, there would be nobody developing strategies and explaining mechanics to those people. So to keep that portion of the player base there has to be incentive for those players to remain. Just as there has to be incentives for the completely casual players to remain, and incentives for everyone in between. I am willing to bet the play styles graph is like most things in life, a bell curve. I think the thing that most people forget is that for a healthy evolving community there must be those on each end of the curve, they bring value to the community as a whole. As I believe that, I believe not incorporating some content for that segment is a mistake.

    I personally believe the instances and adding tiers (I personally would like to see 3 tiers and a challenge for each tier) is an attempt to bring that about in a more economical way than creating instance clusters and raids. I also believe Skirmishes was an attempt at that and so is the Epic Battles set up. But if the customers Turbine is targeting in that way don't believe it, it really doesn't matter. I believe that the small PVP community also deserves love and attention because again they bring value to the community.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/032020000000bd0ff/signature.png]Aidus[/charsig]

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  15. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by GrimbleGrumble View Post
    I hope everyone has maxed LI slots if that's the case, cuz you're looking at at least 6, plus Bridle, plus any extras you might need to be leveling for runes and relics.
    Back to packing Multiple Bows and now melee's it seems like.
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  16. #66
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    with the new trait set up for hunter, I could see myself having 2 bows, and 2 main-hands. however, if trapper doesn't turn out to be a fully realized class line, I probably will stick to just 1 bow and 1 main hand even if swapping between bowmaster and huntsman.

    Hunter just isn't diverse enough to have any significant benefits to multiple LIs. not like all the other classes where you want 3 full sets of LIs. hunters still will be easy mode in that capacity.

    However, I'll probably build a CC/trapper bow next expansion just for fun since its something different.
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  17. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Leixy View Post
    with the new trait set up for hunter, I could see myself having 2 bows, and 2 main-hands. however, if trapper doesn't turn out to be a fully realized class line, I probably will stick to just 1 bow and 1 main hand even if swapping between bowmaster and huntsman.

    Hunter just isn't diverse enough to have any significant benefits to multiple LIs. not like all the other classes where you want 3 full sets of LIs. hunters still will be easy mode in that capacity.

    However, I'll probably build a CC/trapper bow next expansion just for fun since its something different.
    It will really boil down to if the Legacies are really tuned to trait lines. IE +range in red line or Plus Crit Mag in Red line, -induction or increase focus in Hunts, etc. If they really rework the trait lines to maximize the LI's effect in a trait line I could see running six. If it doesn't change much then 4 max I would think.
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  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leixy View Post
    with the new trait set up for hunter, I could see myself having 2 bows, and 2 main-hands. however, if trapper doesn't turn out to be a fully realized class line, I probably will stick to just 1 bow and 1 main hand even if swapping between bowmaster and huntsman.

    Hunter just isn't diverse enough to have any significant benefits to multiple LIs. not like all the other classes where you want 3 full sets of LIs. hunters still will be easy mode in that capacity.

    However, I'll probably build a CC/trapper bow next expansion just for fun since its something different.
    I agree with basically everything you said. If ToF turns out to be worthwhile, I may end up with multiple LI setups as well. Worthwhile is the key word here.

    However, the thought of running multiple LI's a while ago never came to pass for me. I thought of making a solo bow (max dmg) and a group bow (threat down), but ultimately out of laziness I just added threat down legacies on my main bow, making my threat issues mostly OK. I just don't bother self-buffing with needful haste/burn hot in groups that don't contain an experienced tank.

  19. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthil View Post
    I'm just hoping they're just not quite finished and are simply giving us the general ideas while they work out the specifics. However, I'll agree that it was kinda short; diaries for most other classes have been more detailed. Hopefully we'll get another round of these in the next couple months that will give us the nitty gritty details, showing at least as much as simply telling.
    Helm's Deep is scheduled to be released in November (the 18th, I believe). Anything not completed by this time probably would not be in the update.

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by BackAgainAndThere View Post
    I agree with basically everything you said. If ToF turns out to be worthwhile, I may end up with multiple LI setups as well. Worthwhile is the key word here.

    However, the thought of running multiple LI's a while ago never came to pass for me. I thought of making a solo bow (max dmg) and a group bow (threat down), but ultimately out of laziness I just added threat down legacies on my main bow, making my threat issues mostly OK. I just don't bother self-buffing with needful haste/burn hot in groups that don't contain an experienced tank.
    you actually make a good case of building two different bows based upon whether you are with a good tank or not. I'll consider this going forward.

    one with max DPS and one with reduced threat. Given that server population on brandywine depends on the time of day, sometimes I can find good tanks, other times no. However, they alluded to changes to threat that might make this concern negligible if they make threat easy mode for tanks.
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  21. #71
    As i have said before, I say again, Do you even know what the hunter class wants?
    The end of an age has come and the wheel of time turns on. We will meet again when the wheel allows it.

  22. #72
    Ha, seems like the devs had their work cut out for them with all the opinions out there. Can't make everyone happy. I've learned a lot about my class in threads like this (I'm a very casual player that dips into every part of the game I can when I have time which has been less and less ). The idea to revamp the classes is good and they will undoubtedly update the changes with time, most likely for the better. The direction they are going is good I think. Distinction and relevance of the trait sets are the way to go. Same with the classes.

    Being the person I am, I look forward to trying different builds. It will be cool to see traps be more useful. I always thought they were a cool idea that weren't implemented as well as they could be.

    Also, I may be different here but I would like to kite with my hunter, just can't do it well with the stop and go method, lol. Therefore I go to lower level places and run around pegging enemies with the basic attack. *pew pew pew* makes me feel cool, and isn't that of primary import when playing a game! also using elvish words. < very cool

    Over all the point is to increase the fun level. So far Turbine has done just that. Maybe not perfectly at all times, but who's perfect eh?

    Alámenë
    ^
    see, very cool.
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  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gwuryn View Post
    Wow! I was just about to post a reply almost verbatim to yours because I noticed the exact same thing about each line being unique and having a distinct feel, but we're able to experience all lines by adding points to them. Gee, thanks for stating the obvious in the diary and completely contradicting the initial statement.
    One wonders if the Devs have tried these Trait Trees with characters NOT at the level cap.

    And as for each line being unique -- yes that is true. It means that a character is LOCKED into one line or another.
    Last edited by Valamar; Sep 22 2013 at 11:22 AM.
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  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leixy View Post
    This game would stink if I couldn't kite around on my hunter when needed, its fun, I enjoy it immensely on my hunter when the opportunity affords. For example, ToO, fire and frost, the tank gets punted around the room and the Grimms chase after the tank. if you can't kite away, you're probably going to die from grimm AoE. Another example, IP t2c, kiting is basically required, no matter the class to make sure you kill the keg-masters before they reach the egg. So again, don't assume hunters never kite or don't enjoy it.

    Also it sounds like they are enhancing the capstone on huntsman to allow for induction based attacks while also kiting which would be huge.



    If you can't generate focus well while moving, you must never be traited fleetness or precision not to mention +focus on crit.



    This part I can agree with, also, an improved split shot would have been nice to apply bleed or debuff to make it relevant, or maybe they just got rid of it all together.

    P.S. there's an agile rejoinder heal legacy that makes the heal very relevant at end-game.
    Thanks, I tried any and everything on hunter past few years. I am aware that I do generate focus running but not very well. Thank you for telling me about the agile rejoinder.

    No, sorry, I drop the sarcasm!

    With 8k morale, aglie rejoinder works very well in the new version as long as some parry slotted and use of the occasional swift stroke if in dire need. The beef has been with the largely unused Press Onward, which suffers from a crippling(ly) slow and interruptable induction (I have not used it in perhaps two months, it could have become can't be interrupted).
    I made a craft character to caplevel 85 (for rep gated recipes) and took the chance to find out what the current game is like for a hunter blowing through the levels with the new version of the stat Fate. At cap it had 4.8k morale and for this amount, Press Onward worked very well. It filled up nicely.
    On my capped hunter rolled on alt server (to see what the LOTRO game is like if you start with nothing), Press Onward already felt like a pointless extra as morale bumped into the 6.5k range.
    On the capped hunter I've played the longest, something of a completionist (but still in cash as the economy was around xmas, after which I had a long break, meaning it has no first agers and only a couple of gold items and runs around in Hytbold gear), Press Onward seems inadequate, slow and entirely pointless - the way it currently works.

    I'm saying that Press Onward (this epically epic specially earned and deliberately slotted skill) has been a frequent topic in the Hunter section of the forums yet it's not mentioned in the dev diary.

  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Macroscian View Post

    I'm saying that Press Onward (this epically epic specially earned and deliberately slotted skill) has been a frequent topic in the Hunter section of the forums yet it's not mentioned in the dev diary.
    Yes, and it is conspicuous in its absence. As is the lack of information about stances. The trait lines appear to be replacing stances, the champ diary alludes to them being dropped so does the burglar, ours doesn't give them a passing mention.

    Other's have criticised the dev's credibility for saying the bowmaster is what the hunter is all about. I think he meant that the spirit of the hunter class is that its supposed to be a bowmaster rather than everyone traited red in the bowmaster line. i.e. hunter = that guy with the bow, not no-one traits blue. Although I may be wrong because he did say other lines used to supplement it..... eeek.

    I feel that some major details have been left out of this diary, brevity has been chosen over clarity and transparency which for me is a shame. We are interested in what's happening to our class, we dont mind a long post! details are good!

    Outstanding questions I think we need answering are;

    1. Are stances going the way of the Dodo? and/or the benefits being linked to traitlines.
    2. Range changes between bowmaster and huntsman, are these fixed or is it an early trait in bowmaster to increase range to 40? Or perhaps fleetness a huntsman trait near the top of the tree which decreasses range but allows inductions on the move? (i'm brainstorming here) Give us the details please
    3. Is Press Onward inductionless? Have its morale increase scaled to level? a % of morale would be nice.
    4. Has heartseeker changed? Has its damage been scaled to level? or has it been scrapped in favour of this new skill from https://www.lotro.com/en/content/revitalize-your-role upshot? (seems like a replacement for merciful shot to me but maybe both?)

    Atleast those are the ones weighing in my mind at the moment. If only one had a beta invite, sigh.
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