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  1. #1
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    Spider tweaking and wishlist

    Weaver wishlist:

    ok, so I love the weaver class, and i've been dying to know what (if any) new toys we might get for a 10 level increase. I think 1-3 new skills would be nice, and some tweaks of existing skills too, i'll also mention a few things that weavers need help with and try to come up with possible solutions or request ideas for solutions from other players. I am aware many people consider weaver to be a strong class but it still has many issues, and they can go here so that the powers that be know what is troubling us. Though I am still happy with the class.

    I'll start with tweaks:

    Toxin:
    This skill badly needs to be scaled, atm, it only gets hit when everything else is on cd, controlling opponents by sapping their power over time used to be the strongest part of the weaver, now even with 6 spiders stacking toxin on a healer it makes no dent in their power pool due to insane power regen rates, and the damage is truly weak, I would suggest either replacing the power drain with a conventional dot or making the power drain many times stronger than it currently is. this used to be a key skill for combating wardens minstrels and runekeepers and was our answer to the loremaster power steal. one possible way of fixing it would be to add a debuff to icpr and boosting the drain.

    web the earth:
    Now that brands exist to remove slows, and many freep classes have a sprint that totally bypasses or removes the slow, as well as store brands etc, our webs are not as potent as they once were, most freeps can run right over it as though it weren't there: including all the classes you want to slow, like captains, champs, guards, wardens (they have a toggle sprint, for those that don't know) minstrels all run over it without fear of being slowed. captains even making everyone in their group immune to webs. Maybe there could be an advantage to dropping webs for the spider that wouldn't harm those already in the webs, but still allow the webs to fulfill their purpose? My idea is to give spiders a 20% run speed boost while their webs are active, if an opponent is slowed in webs, anyway, this will make little difference since the spider would still get max distance regardless, but would be a great boon against slow immunity and still allow spiders to try to kite with their webs without being impossible to catch for sprinters, and maybe be a partial answer to the near minute long sprints many classes use to bail when things go badly (i'm looking at you, champs and guards) it even fits in flavour wise, since one would assume that a spider would be faster with webs around.

    smothering webs:
    This skill has been overlooked for scaling since Audacity came out, warband maneuvers are not used in the moors, previously a 5 minute cooldown on a 5 second stun was perfectly reasonable it has the same cd as trapdoor sanctuary (shortburrow) audacity and possibly diminishing returns makes this a 2.5 second at most stun that requires extreme proximity on a 5 minute cd on the cc class of creepside... that is awful... traited parylitic venom has 1/10th the cd, 4 times the range, and triple the duration if they aren't hit, and equal duration if they are...
    i'd suggest either doubling the stun to return it to what it was pre-aud (remember, it's a 5 min cd, it should be decent) or dropping the cd on it, or adding something to it, atm it's pretty lacklustre as it ties with shortburrow for a spiders longest cd...

    Mephitic kiss:
    this stacks exactly once, no matter how many spiders there are, only one mephitic kiss can be on a target... while I do think it could be abused if allowed unlimited stacks, I do not think it'd hurt to let it stack more than once as it basically is the same as tainted kiss with aoe and a longer cooldown. As spiders have very few dots they can apply, to be locked out even in a duo is frustrating, I cannot recommend a number, but 6 seems about right. that allows multiple spiders in a raid to be effective with this skill without being op and stacking 24. anything more than 1 would be good.


    I will post more on spiders at a later date, I believe I have given good reasons for why these slight alterations could be justified. Let me know what you think.
    Last edited by loki84; Oct 06 2013 at 08:03 PM.
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  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by loki84 View Post
    ok, so I love the weaver class, and i've been dying to know what (if any) new toys we might get for a 10 level increase. I think 1-3 new skills would be nice, and some tweaks of existing skills too, i'll also mention a few things that weavers need help with and try to come up with possible solutions or request ideas for solutions from other players. I am aware many people consider weaver to be a strong class but it still has many issues, and they can go here so that the powers that be know what is troubling us. Though I am still happy with the class.
    The class is fine as it is

    Quote Originally Posted by loki84 View Post
    Toxin:
    This skill badly needs to be scaled, atm, it only gets hit when everything else is on cd, controlling opponents by sapping their power over time used to be the strongest part of the weaver, now even with 6 spiders stacking toxin on a healer it makes no dent in their power pool due to insane power regen rates, and the damage is truly weak, I would suggest either replacing the power drain with a conventional dot or making the power drain many times stronger than it currently is. this used to be a key skill for combating wardens minstrels and runekeepers and was our answer to the loremaster power steal. one possible way of fixing it would be to add a debuff to icpr and boosting the drain.
    Power drains should not be a part of PvP for either side. Make 10% inc healing debuff.


    Quote Originally Posted by loki84 View Post
    web the earth:
    Now that brands exist to remove slows, and many freep classes have a sprint that totally bypasses or removes the slow, as well as store brands etc, our webs are not as potent as they once were, most freeps can run right over it as though it weren't there: including all the classes you want to slow, like captains, champs, guards, wardens (they have a toggle sprint, for those that don't know) minstrels all run over it without fear of being slowed. captains even making everyone in their group immune to webs. Maybe there could be an advantage to dropping webs for the spider that wouldn't harm those already in the webs, but still allow the webs to fulfill their purpose? My idea is to give spiders a 20% run speed boost while their webs are active, if an opponent is slowed in webs, anyway, this will make little difference since the spider would still get max distance regardless, but would be a great boon against slow immunity and still allow spiders to try to kite with their webs without being impossible to catch for sprinters, and maybe be a partial answer to the near minute long sprints many classes use to bail when things go badly (i'm looking at you, champs and guards) it even fits in flavour wise, since one would assume that a spider would be faster with webs around.
    Web the Earth is already a powerful skill that needs no alteration. The tail end slow portion of it should be fixed (perhaps even reduced to 5s due to potency).

    Quote Originally Posted by loki84 View Post
    smothering webs:
    This skill has been overlooked for scaling since Audacity came out, warband maneuvers are not used in the moors, previously a 5 minute cooldown on a 5 second stun was perfectly reasonable it has the same cd as trapdoor sanctuary (shortburrow) audacity and possibly diminishing returns makes this a 2.5 second at most stun that requires extreme proximity on a 5 minute cd on the cc class of creepside... that is awful... traited parylitic venom has 1/10th the cd, 4 times the range, and triple the duration if they aren't hit, and equal duration if they are...
    i'd suggest either doubling the stun to return it to what it was pre-aud (remember, it's a 5 min cd, it should be decent) or dropping the cd on it, or adding something to it, atm it's pretty lacklustre as it ties with shortburrow for a spiders longest cd...
    Skill is still a handy stun at times. Suggest changing to 1 min CD, removing induction and making interrupt.

    Quote Originally Posted by loki84 View Post
    Mephitic kiss:
    this stacks exactly once, no matter how many spiders there are, only one mephitic kiss can be on a target... while I do think it could be abused if allowed unlimited stacks, I do not think it'd hurt to let it stack more than once as it basically is the same as tainted kiss with aoe and a longer cooldown. As spiders have very few dots they can apply, to be locked out even in a duo is frustrating, I cannot recommend a number, but 6 seems about right. that allows multiple spiders in a raid to be effective with this skill without being op and stacking 24. anything more than 1 would be good.
    This is getting ridiculous, how insanely overpowered do you want spiders to be? Or are you just trying to make up for your failings with the class? This is already a great skill, does not need any changing.

    Quote Originally Posted by loki84 View Post
    I believe I have given good reasons for why these slight alterations could be justified
    The fact you are unable to use the class to its full potential is not justification.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moors-Battlemaster View Post
    Power drains should not be a part of PvP for either side.
    ^This.

    And because I was forced by the universal law of 10 chars to type more I had the time to come up with this ridiculous idea: Make it a channeled 10 sec. root. (full auda that's 5, before you panic.)
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  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Moors-Battlemaster View Post
    Power drains should not be a part of PvP for either side. Make 10% inc healing debuff.

    Web the Earth is already a powerful skill that needs no alteration. The tail end slow portion of it should be fixed (perhaps even reduced to 5s due to potency).

    Skill is still a handy stun at times. Suggest changing to 1 min CD, removing induction and making interrupt.
    I actually really like most of this. Fixing WtE bug is a no-brainer, the heal debuff would make Weaver's instantly more viable in craids (just keep it from stacking more than a couple times between multiple weavers), 2 minutes seems more appropriate to me for smothering, given weavers already have a 30s cd daze and 1 min cd stun, an interrupt would be a nice addition though.

    Adding a third induction, wound debuff would be nice as well. Perhaps one that debuffs tactical mastery?

    Catch prey actually having to be re-applied, rather that having the duration automatically refresh indefinitely would be a good move.
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  5. #5
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    I wasn't aware warden's forced march skill was available in combat and cured and/or prevented slows... Did that change?
    Déorwyn, Rank 12 Captain
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  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Deorwyn View Post
    I wasn't aware warden's forced march skill was available in combat and cured and/or prevented slows... Did that change?
    it didn't, there are a lot of misconceptions and exaggerations in the OP.
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  7. #7
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    I don't think he is in any way asking for the class to be OP, I think Loki makes some very good points tbh. SOMEONE has to point these things out! Things changed a lot for weavers since the RoR freep updates, playing one is quite different indeed from RoR launch & RoI- and less effective by far due to the number of changes made freepside. I completely agree about Toxin, Tainted Kiss and Web the Earth, and also about Smothering Webs. With the diminishing returns tweaks made plus the insanely-increased ability of freeps to quickly remove what dots actually stick, something really has to be adjusted weaver-side to make us more viable with what are supposed to be our key skills. If power-drains are out, then at least make our main skills relevant to today's battlefield. Medium-high ranked Minstrels and RKs cannot be tackled in any prolonged encounter, it's a waste of time. But compared to BAs, we are still quite strong, nevertheless.
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  8. #8
    The class is fine as it is
    That pretty much sums it up. Can't believe someone is asking for changes to make one of the best classes creeps have even better. CD on sprints are no match for the number of spiders out there. Web the earth being staggered by coordinated spiders will bring just about any melee in freep groups to their knees. I'm dumbfounded that someone would ask about making weavers more powerful.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Aldeld View Post
    That pretty much sums it up. Can't believe someone is asking for changes to make one of the best classes creeps have even better. CD on sprints are no match for the number of spiders out there. Web the earth being staggered by coordinated spiders will bring just about any melee in freep groups to their knees. I'm dumbfounded that someone would ask about making weavers more powerful.
    not sure if serious or trolling but i will say this much 1st.web the earth is broken and any class can simply run through it.2nd roll a spider and try to dps down an rk or an lm or a mini hell even champs on glory can outheal it.3rd some freep classes possess this thing called cc immunity(lm,cbr champ)prob is lm can give his group a game-breaker buff.I am gonna be clear i dont ask to become OP far from it actually,i would just like some new ways for the spider to fit its roll )AFTER U10(.for example some ways to customize our builds like our lm counterparts,some new debuffs to help with tact and healin classes.Last but not least an lm can help out his group with his wlore and beacons of hope,why shouldnt i be able to do the same?Believe me i would gladly trade toxic carapace and burrow full heal for these little things...

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Aldeld View Post
    That pretty much sums it up. Can't believe someone is asking for changes to make one of the best classes creeps have even better. CD on sprints are no match for the number of spiders out there. Web the earth being staggered by coordinated spiders will bring just about any melee in freep groups to their knees. I'm dumbfounded that someone would ask about making weavers more powerful.
    Basically what you are saying is that if many spiders take on one freep then the spiders are more powerful?
    Well duh.

    Freep classes are contantly made better.. godmode classes anyone?

    Why is it so dumbfounding that a creep class would be made better?
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  11. #11
    The camera desperately needs to be fixed... im tired of going inside my own rear end....
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  12. #12
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    So spiders have:

    - ranged attacks
    - mellee attacks
    - a lot of CC (roots, dazes, stuns, fears, slows, disarms) - damn fears are so annoying...
    - strong debuffs
    - heals
    - crazy reflect
    - pet
    - fast moving, no broken legs from falls

    What did i forget?

    A well played spider is really pain in a...

    Commander Liliam - the Warden
    Evernight

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Vilda View Post
    So spiders have:

    - ranged attacks
    - mellee attacks
    - a lot of CC (roots, dazes, stuns, fears, slows, disarms) - damn fears are so annoying...
    - strong debuffs
    - heals
    - crazy reflect
    - pet
    - fast moving, no broken legs from falls

    What did i forget?

    A well played spider is really pain in a...
    trollpost? ok lets take this one by one.....ranged attacks OMG so OP no freep can do that,melee attacks(same as ranged) a lot of cc(thats the funniest part)sorry bud but spiders dont have disarms and our slow is broken since U10 k lets move on,strong debuffs....seriously?I have to agree about reflect it can become a life-saver at times but hey freeps have those oH-#### skills too,Last one.....come on man....pet...i dont think i have to say more about our God-Mode pet(needs nerf on getting kb's tho:P) The OP is just asking for some improvements and plz when you see these kinds of posts about improvements to our creep classes i would just ask some peeps to do this=before saying that something is OP check your facts and provide some justification about how is this class OP and THEN compare it to some other classes who need to be balanced but people defend them if thats the case.....wardens for example or rks.Think i ve made my point clear,this isnt a direct attack btw i have no desire for any class to become OP in any way.
    Last edited by Saenanthra; Oct 08 2013 at 06:21 AM.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saenanthra View Post
    trollpost? ok lets take this one by one.....ranged attacks OMG so OP no freep can do that,melee attacks(same as ranged) a lot of cc(thats the funniest part)sorry bud but spiders dont have disarms and our slow is broken since U10 k lets move on,strong debuffs....seriously?I have to agree about reflect it can become a life-saver at times but hey freeps have those oH-#### skills too,Last one.....come on man....pet...i dont think i have to say more about our God-Mode pet(needs nerf on getting kb's tho:P) The OP is just asking for some improvements and plz when you see these kinds of posts about improvements to our creep classes i would just ask some peeps to do this=before saying that something is OP check your facts and provide some justification about how is this class OP and THEN compare it to some other classes who need to be balanced but people defend them if thats the case.....wardens for example or rks.Think i ve made my point clear,this isnt a direct attack btw i have no desire for any class to become OP in any way.
    ^this.

    Also, did anyone else read this (at first) as "Spider twerking and wishlist" or am I the only one....?
    I've been at the mercy of men just following orders. Never again.

  15. #15
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    i knew it!!

    improved Mandible Strike(hatchling skill) 477-561 common damage: Critical hit causes disarm 2s


    And no, it wasn't mean as troll post, but whatever...

    Commander Liliam - the Warden
    Evernight

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Vilda View Post
    i knew it!!

    improved Mandible Strike(hatchling skill) 477-561 common damage: Critical hit causes disarm 2s


    And no, it wasn't mean as troll post, but whatever...

    ZOMG spider pet has a 2 second disarm skill that only procs on a critical..

    Nerf spider pets! this is crazy Overpowered.

    This is clearly more OP than being stunned by a LM or RK simply by attacking them.
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  17. #17
    Since the OP has created a good thread about this class i would ask all peeps to come here only to discuss how and in what way can we improve this class w/o making it FoTM.Plz dont derail thread and keep discussion going(serious answers) or it might be closed.Any suggestions on skills,revamp on class traits,racials,pet improvement suggestions would be really appreciated:P

  18. #18
    I think a perma daze will do the trick. We will of course be having Blood Rage champs who are immune, so need more thoughts on that.
    Oh and a skill that spawns a pet every 3s, so the spider can eat them. Also, increase Catch Prey to 10 tiers, capping at 100%. That leaves us with tactical classes. Passive skill; Strong Carapace. On any tactical damage: 15% chance to receive effect: On any tactical damage, reflect 100%. Stacks 5 times.

    Thoughts?
    Feailuve - Akabath
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  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Zanishi View Post
    The camera desperately needs to be fixed... im tired of going inside my own rear end....
    Best suggestion yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    I think a perma daze will do the trick. We will of course be having Blood Rage champs who are immune, so need more thoughts on that.
    Oh and a skill that spawns a pet every 3s, so the spider can eat them. Also, increase Catch Prey to 10 tiers, capping at 100%. That leaves us with tactical classes. Passive skill; Strong Carapace. On any tactical damage: 15% chance to receive effect: On any tactical damage, reflect 100%. Stacks 5 times.

    Thoughts?
    Figures someone who PvP's on a warden would make these suggestions.



    My 2 cents:

    The entangled debuff that's used for Envenom. It's not really a debuff since it has no negative effect for freeps. Which is silly, since being "entangled" with a varying amount of webs should do something.

    My proposal:

    Each stack of the entangled debuff provides -10% movement speed. -10% for 1 stack, up to -30% for 3 stacks. If a spider uses envenom and clears the entangled debuff, the slow is removed. Of course it won't stack with other spiders entangled debuffs. Now spiders will finally have the one thing EVERY other class in the game has that they don't, a single target slow.
    Lockjawz - R13 Warg - Brandywine

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by stoney530 View Post
    Best suggestion yet.


    Figures someone who PvP's on a warden would make these suggestions.



    My 2 cents:

    The entangled debuff that's used for Envenom. It's not really a debuff since it has no negative effect for freeps. Which is silly, since being "entangled" with a varying amount of webs should do something.

    My proposal:

    Each stack of the entangled debuff provides -10% movement speed. -10% for 1 stack, up to -30% for 3 stacks. If a spider uses envenom and clears the entangled debuff, the slow is removed. Of course it won't stack with other spiders entangled debuffs. Now spiders will finally have the one thing EVERY other class in the game has that they don't, a single target slow.
    not a bad idea, but +30% is too much for a class that is already 10% faster most freeps, and that is already at an advantage when it comes to the melee physical classes, who would be most effected by this change. 5% for each stack, when coupled with the 10% passive spiders get would put them at roughly the the same speed as champs/guards/cappies, which again puts the emphasis on who smartly uses movement and wte/sprint(s).

    The other problem with this is that the entangled debuff has no duration (just stay in combat). The whole debuff would need to be reduced to a 20s duration (with reapplication of a web skill refreshing the duration). 100% slow up-time would be easily maintainable, but a weaver wouldn't be able to say stack it 3 times, then chain a fear, mez, and stun so that they build up enough range for the melee'ers slow to wear of, and then be able to kite them to death, since they would have to stop and induct to refresh.
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  21. #21
    This actually is a very nice idea, a single target slow, lms can re apply slow with just another burning ember so i wouldnt add a long cd to the envenom debuff.Either this or adjust burning embers slow a bit since lms can perma-kite spiders and other classes and wlore to keep themselves at max morale.Also i would like to suggest an improvement to the most useless spider skill,Lethal Kiss.Its already weak by itself and has a cd.Maybe an +incoming dmg debuff OR an -incoming healing to counter somehow spam healer classes.

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by stoney530 View Post
    Figures someone who PvP's on a warden would make these suggestions.
    Was just a joke, anyway. But seriously, Spiders are the strongest class after Reavers maybe. They need adjusting, not buffing. Ok, maybe vs tacticals, but Catch Prey really works against the rest.
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  23. #23
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    I believe a single target slow should be available to spiders, as a passive from being entangled, it makes sense, and it would cause a tradeoff via using envenom, I see a lot of freeps complaining that spiders move 10% faster, yet they forget the coffee buff they permanantly have on and the fact that every freep class has a strong slow (most of them unpottable) that they can put on creeps. in addition to their sprints.

    I would suggest 5% for the first 2 tiers, and 10% for the third tier for a total of 20% that lasts while the spider is in combat.

    on another note... a dev once said that they always intended spiders to be a pets class, yet, atm, the best use I have for my pet is as a distraction while I run, or on passive as a potion in rezz camps. I see even the bad lm pets and wish my pets were half as good. People don't even bother hitting most lm pets, and against anyone competent my pet is a kill response that hinders me unless I dismiss it within 5 seconds of starting a fight...

    with that in mind here is what i would see done with pets:

    make the march buff apply to the spider pets too, I don't think there is a single creep that doesn't want this to happen, it would stop needing to hover over return to master, stop unwanted mob pulls, and allow pets to follow their spidery masters into keeps and outposts without pulling mobs or causing resets. this NEEDS to happen.

    survival, atm pets die just too easily, 3-4 good whacks and the pet is gone for the whole fight. and there are several ways this could be dealt with, and 1 or more of them should be implemented, here they are:

    1: Give better mitigations, like the lm pets have.
    2: make it not matter so much by allowing us to combat summon pets (lm's can do this already) I'd like this but it'd cause a few issues, you'd have to put a cooldown of say 40 secs on devour if this happened, which i'd be fine with. it'd also make the freep feel more harassed
    3: allow us to heal our pets the way cappies and lm's can and make it fairly spammable (pets only)
    4: give pets 25% reflect as a passive, to discourage them being attacked too hard, OR allow toxic carapace to affect the pet too, (which would solve the issue of freeps just killing our pet instead when we reflect)
    5: possibly do this anyway, but allow the pet to have the same audacity as the master, this stops the pet from being utterly locked down in a fight and provides some durability.
    6: allow linked potting, when the spider hits a health pot, the pet also gets the effect.

    atm, a burg can mezz me (and I dare not pot till he shows himself) and bam! my pet is dead before the pot even finishes it's animation... actually, most freeps can wreck spider pets like this.

    mentioning burgs, maybe fix the bug where pets follow them after hips too

    spiders get attached to their pets, and seeing them die all the time is traumatic, please save the pets!
    Last edited by loki84; Oct 10 2013 at 02:25 AM.
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by loki84 View Post
    I want an exceptionally powerful class to be made stronger so I can faceroll it and kill freep raids solo
    No. WTE, once fixed, will replace the need for another slow. Gotta have some tradeoff.

    Make hatchlings immune to CC and give them a 20% morale increase. At most. Don't need anything more.

  25. #25
    A single target slow would be most appreciated i would prefer a single target proper slow than a broken wte(freeps run through it).And IMO every creep class should be looked except reaver.People say that spiders are OP,yet they forget that our dps is pathetic,our PETS are even more pathetic and at ROR we were given a way to counter some of it.Yet freeps WILL get buffed again and again.And about our so called POWERFUL CC.daze=pot,smothering web=1sec stun,latent poison=disease pot.Lm's can perma kite with burning ember slow and sticky tar for max efficiency AND heal themselves AND their pets(those pets will get buffed up btw).Now lets move on to the SOURCE of the supposed spider OPness=reflect,hmmm ways to counter it=kite,turtle-heal,cc the spider,fear(hunters),bubbles,d ire needs,wisdom.That being said i do believe that reflect should get toned down.The Weaver class needs adjustments and new ways to help itself when caught with a perilous situation(having to dps through wlore isnt fun) and to help its group in some way(support) BUT this doesnt neceserally mean that it WILL be OP at HD,after all,every class(freep and creep)should get new interesting things to counter its nemesis class.Now you can either read it and offer better suggestions or just go read another forum if you dont like it.This isnt to be aggresive by the way,but since this particular class discussion attracts trolls than serious peeps i had to say it.

 

 
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