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Thread: Female Dwarf?

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cybelline View Post
    I don't think anyone is 'looking down' on those asking for female dwarves, but letting them know that Turbine is simply not going to introduce Dwarves with breasts, higher voices, less facial hair, slimmer waists or any other distinguishing female characteristic. Tolkien describes either in full or part many other things that simply are not going make it into the game, and that's that, modern sensibilities notwithstanding.

    I had a friend who was going to play LotRO and didn't make it past character creation when he realized he couldn't make his Elf look 'pretty'. I told him that if he wanted pron-star pretty he could go back to playing WoW. Playable races, genders and classes are simply what they are in LotRO, and highly unlikely (as likely as any of us finishing Fishy, Very Fishy) to change, and frankly I like it.

    Same here. I am against having gender specific Dwarves for the same reason I don't want every race to be able to pick any class. It just makes the game too generic.
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  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z0mbiegrl View Post
    Ah, but they do get called upon occasionally in times of great need or crisis... and it's possible that I'm a rogue or an outcast... That should be for me to decide... and female dwarven warriors are said to be quite ferocious when the need arises.
    'When the need arises' would be last-ditch defence, when the enemy are at the gate, not just that there are bad guys about. Female Dwarves didn't go to war - it might find them, but that's a different matter.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirvay View Post
    If you have not actually read the books, I recommend that you do so. J.R.R. Tolkien obviously did envision and write about female dwarfs. I see no reason those that want to play a "female" dwarf should be looked down upon or worse, told they are "breaking the lore" as that is just not correct. Anytime you want to meet my female dwarf on Arkenstone, just let me know, I'm sure Drakenali would be happy to meet you.
    "For the Naugrim have beards from the beginning of their lives, male and female alike; nor indeed can their womenkind be discerned by those of other race, be it in feature or in gait or in voice, nor in any wise save this: that they go not to war, and seldom save at direst need issue from their deep bowers and halls."

    - 'Concerning the Dwarves', as published in HoME

    That bit I've highlighted for you is why it's 'lore-breaking' for a female Dwarf to be a warrior. Next time, don't be in such a hurry to try and tell us what is or isn't correct.

  4. #29
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    If you want to know the real reasons, they were as follows (as Turbine developers explained it 7 years back) :


    • Dwarves are one of the least played races in essentially every game that has them.
    • Dwarf females are played significantly less than dwarf males.
    • Dwarf females which look and sound just like dwarf males (i.e. Tolkien dwarves) will almost certainly be played even less than that.
    • The lore requires dwarf females to be indistinguishable from dwarf males, except to other dwarves. This isn't nearly as trivial to add as you might think, and given the above points... it just didn't make the cut.
    • Adding explicitly female dwarves would lead to an endless set of requests for more "feminine" looks, hair, clothing, beards, etc... a set of requests they probably couldn't fulfill.


    The compromise was that instead of having all dwarves out and about adventuring in Middle-earth be males (which would line up best with the lore), they'd just remove gender selection from the character screen and let you role-play it as you saw fit. It's understandable if nearly everyone thinks you're a dwarf male, even if you're not. That's exactly what would have happened to a dwarf female out adventuring in this setting.

    Khafar
    Last edited by Khafar; Sep 18 2013 at 04:35 AM.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fearless.one View Post
    Dude that was a joke not a fact dwarf women don't have beards I am sure they would look rough I am sure but no beards I am sure. This has always beeb a stupid oversight in the game
    More an oversight of people that think that women of every fantasy race need to be sexy(in the eyes of humans), have boobs and no beards.
    Nothing here matters.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cybelline View Post
    You are not genderless, you are quite clearly male although you are free to name your Dwarf Clara or Pauline and wear robes or dresses. You simply cannot play a female Dwarf for the same reason you can't fly, it's not cannon.
    How is it not cannon? Female dwarves ARE mentioned by Tolkien. One by name even.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    'When the need arises' would be last-ditch defence, when the enemy are at the gate, not just that there are bad guys about. Female Dwarves didn't go to war - it might find them, but that's a different matter.
    There are always exceptions to every rule. Maybe a female dwarf is an outcast or a rebel... or maybe she pulls a Mulan and goes to war in her father's stead. It should be up to the PC to decide what gender their character is.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cybelline View Post
    I don't think anyone is 'looking down' on those asking for female dwarves, but letting them know that Turbine is simply not going to introduce Dwarves with breasts, higher voices, less facial hair, slimmer waists or any other distinguishing female characteristic. Tolkien describes either in full or part many other things that simply are not going make it into the game, and that's that, modern sensibilities notwithstanding.

    I had a friend who was going to play LotRO and didn't make it past character creation when he realized he couldn't make his Elf look 'pretty'. I told him that if he wanted pron-star pretty he could go back to playing WoW. Playable races, genders and classes are simply what they are in LotRO, and highly unlikely (as likely as any of us finishing Fishy, Very Fishy) to change, and frankly I like it.
    If you read my replies, you'll see that I'm not asking for any distinguishing feminine qualities (Breasts, higher voices, etc) as that would not be cannon. I am simply asking for the option to select my gender the same as any other race.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z0mbiegrl View Post
    If you read my replies, you'll see that I'm not asking for any distinguishing feminine qualities (Breasts, higher voices, etc) as that would not be cannon. I am simply asking for the option to select my gender the same as any other race.
    Just decide that your dwarf is female if you want to and that's it.
    What does it matter if you cannot click on a button that says 'Female' (or 'Male' for that matter) if nothing else in the game would change anyway ?

  10. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Z0mbiegrl View Post
    If you read my replies, you'll see that I'm not asking for any distinguishing feminine qualities (Breasts, higher voices, etc) as that would not be cannon. I am simply asking for the option to select my gender the same as any other race.
    You've already chosen your gender in your mind, how you named your character, how you dress it and how you RP it. There is literally nothing stopping you being a female dwarf apart from your own hang-up about wanting to click a button on the character selection screen.

  11. #36
    As I've said in many, many threads on this topic in the past, what we have now is an improvement over what we used to have. When I played LOTRO during open beta, one could only be a male dwarf. Because at the time I could not accept that and what I saw as seriously lore breaking possibilities (so many women with swords, no possible option for non combatants which all races should have the option for, etc.) I decided not to play LOTRO. Later, when a friend got me MoM as a Christmas gift, I saw that they had removed the gender exclusion by making it as ambiguous as Tolkein does. I decided to see how that felt as well as if I could tolerate other lore breaking points, and I have been playing ever since.

    As many have pointed out in accordance to lore, when a female dwarf goes above, she dresses and acts in manner of the males, so any other race can not distinguish their gender. Do I scold those who do what I feel are blatently human feminizations to their dwarves in game? No. Do I hop on the bandwagon of no when folks ask for non bearded dwarves and "more feminine" dwarves in general? Yes. Is that hypocritical in this matter? Without getting in to the gray 'on one hand, on the other', yes, and I know that. Over time, I have found peace with this gray in between, because I love this world that has been created, even if it's not my ideal portrayal of J.R.R.'s world.

    Turbine tries their best to spend time and resources on those areas that they feel have the most wiggle room, or will continue to help this game appeal to the broadest audience. I'd much rather have a bit of wiggle, then start to see caps on how many of X gender of X race (or even just how many of X race overall) can be on any given server at any given time in order to stay within lore. You'd see a drastic reduction of elves, dwarves, and even hobbits--Tookish blood or commoners. I certainly do not want that! Let's not even get into how many female Men would be forced to only be non fighting characters if we really want to get lore tunnel visioned.

    I have a few female Dwarves. In RP, one goes above, the rest do not. (I have to have the others go out in order to get around level gating to get them to Moria and such. Where, you will notice, there are no Dwarf only areas, so it makes sense females would choose to not make themselves known as such to non Dwarrow since so much area there can be inhabited by any race.) Yes, it's a bit annoying that the emotes always denote male gender, but it was the easiest out coding wise for the devs. You can get around it with a bit of thought if you truly want others to see your emotes reflecting your gender. I know it's not the solution many of us would like to see (that magic button at creation, and coding that allows for only Dwarrow to see/acknowledge gender), but it is possible to make happen on our own within the confines Turbine has set, and I can live with that.
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  12. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Z0mbiegrl View Post
    How is it not cannon? Female dwarves ARE mentioned by Tolkien. One by name even.
    In the spirit of sharing info, that would be Dís. http://www.tolkiengateway.net/wiki/D%C3%ADs
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  13. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by robbie1435 View Post
    Aww! Does that mean I have to take off the sparkles . LOL... I wish my dwarf could have sparkles...
    /sarcasm
    Then have them open a Specimen Jar: Fireflies from the Mathom House. Instant sparkles, though temporary with a long CD.
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  14. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Cybelline View Post
    You are not genderless, you are quite clearly male
    Not in this game. LOTRO specifically avoids identifying dwarves with either gender.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cybelline View Post
    but letting them know that Turbine is simply not going to introduce Dwarves with breasts, higher voices, less facial hair, slimmer waists or any other distinguishing female characteristic.
    But nobody has asked for any of that, and indeed none of those are female characteristics for dwarves. What people want is a properly stout, deep voiced, thickly bearded dwarf woman. But they want her identified as a woman, and their male dwarves identified as male, instead of treating dwarves as though they were asexual drones just because their genders look alike.


    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    "For the Naugrim have beards from the beginning of their lives, male and female alike; nor indeed can their womenkind be discerned by those of other race, be it in feature or in gait or in voice, nor in any wise save this: that they go not to war, and seldom save at direst need issue from their deep bowers and halls."
    If seldom were the same as never, then we wouldn't be able to play hobbits either. By lore, we should all be playing men (and that's "men" in both senses of the word — males of the race of Man). Yet the game allows us to play characters of any of four races, and in three of them either gender. Yet for the other, it doesn't specify a gender at all.

    The failure to specify a gender for dwarves certainly doesn't match lore. Dwarves in the books have clearly specified genders. Gimli, son of Glóin is certainly not going to be introduced as Gimli, genderless offspring of Glóin. Their males and females may look just alike, but they're quite clear in identifying themselves. I think people make too much of the idea that other races can't tell them apart on sight. Given the way they introduce themselves, it seems fair to assume that anyone who knows a dwarf's name would know their gender as well.

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Niwashi View Post
    The failure to specify a gender for dwarves certainly doesn't match lore. Dwarves in the books have clearly specified genders. Gimli, son of Glóin is certainly not going to be introduced as Gimli, genderless offspring of Glóin. Their males and females may look just alike, but they're quite clear in identifying themselves. I think people make too much of the idea that other races can't tell them apart on sight. Given the way they introduce themselves, it seems fair to assume that anyone who knows a dwarf's name would know their gender as well.
    So, taking into account that the female dwarves dress as male and never reveal their sex to anyone if they venture out, you think that they would really introduce themselves to strangers as "daughter of"?

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Niwashi View Post
    If seldom were the same as never, then we wouldn't be able to play hobbits either.
    No, because we know that even female hobbits went off on adventures sometimes - whereas it was an adventure for a female Dwarf to so much as stick her nose outside the doors of a Dwarf-hall, and utterly unheard-of for one to go to war.

    Yet for the other, it doesn't specify a gender at all.
    Fine, make all player-character Dwarves male then because if they were adventurers, they would be. The unspecified gender of Dwarves is a compromise to avoid excluding female Dwarves altogether. It's fine how it is.

  17. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by WBS View Post
    So, taking into account that the female dwarves dress as male and never reveal their sex to anyone if they venture out, you think that they would really introduce themselves to strangers as "daughter of"?
    All I've ever seen on that is secondhand from wiki which only indicates that female dwarves dress much the same as males do while traveling. That certainly doesn't suggest any likelihood that they'd hide their sex, just that during an activity where they would be expected to dress for practicality rather than fashion, both genders find the same clothes practical. I'm a woman IRL, and I wouldn't wear a formal dress during a rugged journey. In fact, I wear slacks a lot more often than I do skirts, but I'm certainly not hiding my gender. I'm just not making a point about it.

    If there's somewhere that does in fact indicate that dwarf women would hide their gender, I'd be curious to know where it is and what it actually says.

    Otherwise yes, I'd certainly expect dwarf women to introduce themselves as "... daughter of ..." based on the pattern we've seen in the books for how dwarf men introduce themselves.

  18. #43
    I have a question. For countless years, orcs and goblins and dragons and Mighty Eyeball have fought dwarves. On occasion, orcs and goblins and dragons have invaded dwarf halls, slaying and looting and generally carrying on as orcs and goblins and dragons are wont to do. Whole populations of dwarves have fled here and there and everywhere, migrating above ground, no doubt losing many of their number along the way. Given all those dwarf corpses to examine, how come the elves never figured out the difference between the males and females?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vexendynamus View Post
    I have a question. For countless years, orcs and goblins and dragons and Mighty Eyeball have fought dwarves. On occasion, orcs and goblins and dragons have invaded dwarf halls, slaying and looting and generally carrying on as orcs and goblins and dragons are wont to do. Whole populations of dwarves have fled here and there and everywhere, migrating above ground, no doubt losing many of their number along the way. Given all those dwarf corpses to examine, how come the elves never figured out the difference between the males and females?
    They didn't think to turn them over?
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  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z0mbiegrl View Post
    Except that there is no gender option, as there is with all other races...
    That implies that you can't be a male dwarf either!

  21. #46
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    As ugly as they may be Female dwarves are a reality... J.R.R.Tolkien mentions them as all the others are saying... now if they don't add them in....I'm not going to be TOO sad...as a female saying "Drat...I forgot to shave this morning" is rather gross...

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Niwashi View Post
    But nobody has asked for any of that...
    Not in this thread, perhaps, but lots of people have asked for that in the past.

    What people want is a properly stout, deep voiced, thickly bearded dwarf woman. But they want her identified as a woman, and their male dwarves identified as male, instead of treating dwarves as though they were asexual drones just because their genders look alike.
    If Turbine were to "do it right", lore-wise, it would look something like this:


    • All dwarves would look and sound "male" in anthropomorphic terms... stout, strong, bearded, gruff voice, etc.
    • All non-dwarven NPCs and PCs wouldn't actually know whether a dwarf was female or not, but would almost certainly assume they were male if they couldn't make a reasonable guess based on the name. Being called "he" or "him" by such characters would be common-place out of simple ignorance.
    • Dwarves would of course know the difference, so dwarven NPCs and PCs would refer to a female dwarf with proper pronouns. Some of the male dwarves might be a bit surprised to see a female out adventuring in the world (since Tolkien said this was uncommon, only at great need), but they'd at least know she was female.

    Khafar

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vexendynamus View Post
    I have a question. For countless years, orcs and goblins and dragons and Mighty Eyeball have fought dwarves. On occasion, orcs and goblins and dragons have invaded dwarf halls, slaying and looting and generally carrying on as orcs and goblins and dragons are wont to do. Whole populations of dwarves have fled here and there and everywhere, migrating above ground, no doubt losing many of their number along the way. Given all those dwarf corpses to examine, how come the elves never figured out the difference between the males and females?
    Even if they had, that wouldn't necessarily make it any easier to tell who was what under normal circumstances.

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khafar View Post
    ...they'd just remove gender selection from the character screen and let you role-play it as you saw fit. ...
    The problem is that all titles for dwarves are male. It may not seem to be a big thing in english, but in other languages only very few titles are neutral, most are gender specific. My girlfriend plays a female dwarf and it's very frustrating to see the titles of the own character in male form.
    It would not even be necessary for other players to see the gender specific title, just for the player himself and maybe for other dwarves? After all they should be able to see the difference.

    Yep, I can understand why people want to be able to select a female dwarf.

  25. #50
    It's the reason why I never had a dwarf character in the game... my characters always are female - I'm no hardcore RP person, but I try to keep my characters as realistic to the setting as possible and I just doubt that I could play a proper male. Tomboy females anytime, but a real male character?

 

 
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