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Thread: Female Dwarf?

  1. #51
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    I support this request.

    Most ideal absolutely nothing should be changed to the current dwarven appearances.
    just an addition to the background coding saying the dwarf is male/female for purposes of NPC conversations and titles/family relations.

    the dwarf player will feel recognized as being feminine and the lorefreaks will not be disturbed by clean-shaven busty short amazons. At least not much more then they are already by the currently cross-dressing dwarves running around.
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  2. #52
    The character creation screen is just fine. If you want a female dwarf, roleplay as one.

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  3. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Fearless.one View Post
    Dude that was a joke not a fact dwarf women don't have beards I am sure they would look rough I am sure but no beards I am sure. This has always beeb a stupid oversight in the game
    There's a dwarf in Thorin's Gate that occasionally mentions that his wife is back home, braiding her beard. I think he's up in Frerin's Court.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Niwashi View Post
    All I've ever seen on that is secondhand from wiki which only indicates that female dwarves dress much the same as males do while traveling. That certainly doesn't suggest any likelihood that they'd hide their sex, just that during an activity where they would be expected to dress for practicality rather than fashion, both genders find the same clothes practical. I'm a woman IRL, and I wouldn't wear a formal dress during a rugged journey. In fact, I wear slacks a lot more often than I do skirts, but I'm certainly not hiding my gender. I'm just not making a point about it.

    If there's somewhere that does in fact indicate that dwarf women would hide their gender, I'd be curious to know where it is and what it actually says.

    Otherwise yes, I'd certainly expect dwarf women to introduce themselves as "... daughter of ..." based on the pattern we've seen in the books for how dwarf men introduce themselves.
    "Dwarves wanted their women to be protected from other races and they usually kept them concealed inside their mountain halls. They seldom traveled in the outside world, only in great need, and when they did, they were dressed as men; with similar voice and appearance as male dwarves, even when they are rarely seen they are usually mistaken for a male. All Dwarves had beards from the beginning of their lives"

    J.R.R. Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien (ed.), The War of the Jewels, "Part Two. The Later Quenta Silmarillion: Concerning the Dwarves (Chapter 13)".
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  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fearless.one View Post
    Dude that was a joke not a fact dwarf women don't have beards I am sure they would look rough I am sure but no beards I am sure. This has always beeb a stupid oversight in the game
    Quote Originally Posted by http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Dwarf-women
    Dwarves wanted their women to be protected from other races and they usually kept them concealed inside their mountain halls. They seldom traveled in the outside world, only in great need, and when they did, they were dressed as men; with similar voice and appearance as male dwarves, even when they are rarely seen they are usually mistaken for a male. All Dwarves had beards from the beginning of their lives
    Actually, they did.
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  6. #56
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    Dwarven secrecy

    Quote Originally Posted by Niwashi View Post
    All I've ever seen on that is secondhand from wiki which only indicates that female dwarves dress much the same as males do while traveling. That certainly doesn't suggest any likelihood that they'd hide their sex, just that during an activity where they would be expected to dress for practicality rather than fashion, both genders find the same clothes practical. I'm a woman IRL, and I wouldn't wear a formal dress during a rugged journey. In fact, I wear slacks a lot more often than I do skirts, but I'm certainly not hiding my gender. I'm just not making a point about it.

    If there's somewhere that does in fact indicate that dwarf women would hide their gender, I'd be curious to know where it is and what it actually says.

    Otherwise yes, I'd certainly expect dwarf women to introduce themselves as "... daughter of ..." based on the pattern we've seen in the books for how dwarf men introduce themselves.
    Dwarves are so secretive that they refuse to teach anyone their language not even their closest non-dwarven friends. They are a people who are in decline because of the percentages of males to females in their society. It also does not help that only about a third of Dwarven females ever take on a mate. This secrecy is so in-grained into their society that when Dwarven females do leave their communities that they do not allow non-Dwarves to find out because this is a form of survival mechanism for the Dwarves. So much so that I suspect that a female Dwarven Adventurer would go out of their way to make sure that even male Dwarves don't clock them as female because the males would probably do everything in their power to get the female back into a Dwarven community ASAP.
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  7. #57
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    As I understand the OP, the question is not one of making dwarves known to the public as female, but rather making it known to the dwarf himself/herself to which gender it belongs (correct me if I've gotten it wrong). That seems to be relevant not only to those who wish to play females, but also to those who wish to be known specifically as male rather than being identified as having no gender. If there are no outward acknowledgments of the female gender (because there would be none in the open world with multiple races running about), I'd have no concerns about specifying a female gender to be known only by the player. Players could invent any backstories they wanted to, and it would have no impact on any other player and his/her lore sensibilities. After all, it is completely possible to play a character that remains in a dwarf homeland, crafting and/or engaging in non-combat quests, so why in Middle-earth couldn't that be played as a female? I have a hobbit female character that is not an adventurer at all; she's a farmer's daughter and excellent cook (and darn good at turning piggies into bacon)--why can't a dwarf do the same?

    But to those who want to play female dwarves under the current conditions: until someone pays your subscription, they can't tell you how to play your game. You may not necessarily fit within the lore, but then again neither do vampires, jedi, half-orcs turned good, one of the many billion ranger-elf offspring (those Dunedain apparently get around!), or any of the countless other ideas that players come up with. If you want to play in hardcore RP circles that follow the lore strictly, then follow the rules accordingly. If not, have fun doing what you do and let your creativity flourish, understanding that not everyone will see things the way you do. After all, at the end of the day, this is a game and we're all here to relax and enjoy.

  8. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by WBS View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Niwashi View Post
    All I've ever seen on that is secondhand from wiki which only indicates that female dwarves dress much the same as males do while traveling. That certainly doesn't suggest any likelihood that they'd hide their sex, just that during an activity where they would be expected to dress for practicality rather than fashion, both genders find the same clothes practical. I'm a woman IRL, and I wouldn't wear a formal dress during a rugged journey. In fact, I wear slacks a lot more often than I do skirts, but I'm certainly not hiding my gender. I'm just not making a point about it.

    If there's somewhere that does in fact indicate that dwarf women would hide their gender, I'd be curious to know where it is and what it actually says.

    Otherwise yes, I'd certainly expect dwarf women to introduce themselves as "... daughter of ..." based on the pattern we've seen in the books for how dwarf men introduce themselves.
    "Dwarves wanted their women to be protected from other races and they usually kept them concealed inside their mountain halls. They seldom traveled in the outside world, only in great need, and when they did, they were dressed as men; with similar voice and appearance as male dwarves, even when they are rarely seen they are usually mistaken for a male. All Dwarves had beards from the beginning of their lives"

    J.R.R. Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien (ed.), The War of the Jewels, "Part Two. The Later Quenta Silmarillion: Concerning the Dwarves (Chapter 13)".
    Ok, that's about what I thought. It does add that staying in dwarven halls provided concealment. (Previously I'd only heard that they rarely left.) As for when dwarf women are abroad, they look, sound, and dress the same as dwarf men, so people seeing them are likely to mistake them for men. Though the passage doesn't really mention it one way or the other, I would certainly expect them to correct that misapprehension among those who they'll be interacting with enough to introduce themselves.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Niwashi View Post
    Ok, that's about what I thought.
    Just for reference, this is what it has to say about dwarves (in a general sense) in Appendix A of The Lord of the Rings:

    Dís was the daughter of Thráin II. She is the only dwarf-woman named in these histories. It was said by Gimli that there are few dwarf-women, probably no more than a third of the whole people. They seldom walk abroad except at great need, They are in voice and appearance, and in garb if they must go on a journey, so like to the dwarf-men that the eyes and ears of other peoples cannot tell them apart. This has given rise to the foolish opinion among Men that there are no dwarf-women, and that the Dwarves 'grow out of stone'.

    It is because of the fewness of women among them that the kind of the Dwarves increases slowly, and is in peril when they have no secure dwellings. For Dwarves take only one wife or husband each in their lives, and are jealous, as in all matters of their rights. The number of dwarf-men that marry is actually less than one-third. For not all the women take husbands: some desire none; some desire one that they cannot get, and so will have no other. As for the men, very many also do not desire marriage, being engrossed in their crafts.


    Khafar

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nuuma View Post
    The character creation screen is just fine. If you want a female dwarf, roleplay as one.
    ... and set the according female titles ... whoops.

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neumi View Post
    ... and set the according female titles ... whoops.
    Because setting a title is roleplaying, is it?

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    Because setting a title is roleplaying, is it?
    yes, it is a tool for roleplaying. the ability to do so helps you shape the identity of your character whether you decide to actively refer to it or not. I bet female elves, humans and hobbits would be annoyed when all their titles would be male.

    I don't like the 'just roleplay it' argument. That logic is powerful enough to advocate scrapping the entire character generation screen and let everyone just roleplay what they are.
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  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    Because setting a title is roleplaying, is it?
    Definitly. It helps most people to identify with their character and it helps to show others how the char is intended to be.



    If we go this way, I could claim that a real roleplayer could immagine that the female dwarf in front of him is a male dwarf really, for him everything could fit the lore perfectly, no matter what the others do.

    Just roleplay that there are only male dwarves around you, would ya?

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neumi View Post
    Definitly. It helps most people to identify with their character and it helps to show others how the char is intended to be.



    If we go this way, I could claim that a real roleplayer could immagine that the female dwarf in front of him is a male dwarf really, for him everything could fit the lore perfectly, no matter what the others do.

    Just roleplay that there are only male dwarves around you, would ya?
    Well real roleplayers turn off names and titels anyways :P. I bet the inevitable dwarf in a dress with a flower in the hair is a bit harder to blink out(Ok ok we have those already).
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  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neumi View Post
    Definitly.
    Wrong answer. Floating names and titles aren't roleplaying, because they're inherently out of character.

  16. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    Wrong answer. Floating names and titles aren't roleplaying, because they're inherently out of character.
    You're partially right. Floating names are a game interface feature rather than a direct representation of what Middle Earth looks like. But they can be as much about roleplaying as describing your actions in the emote channel (as the chat box is another non-representational game interface feature).

    Seeing someone's name and title floating above them is a game interface representation of your character's ability to recognize who they are. It's not a perfect representation, of course, since there should be people you see but don't interact with or only interact with superficially and would not know who they are, and other people you see and recognize so do know who they are. The game can't make that distinction very well, so it just says you know everybody, at least by reputation, and will recognize everyone you see.

    Titles in particular are exclusively about roleplaying, and serve no other function. They indicate what your character is best known for, so would be a part of what other characters would recognize them for and associate them with. It's not necessarily what other players would know them for, however; it's a character-level recognition, so yes it is in-character.

  17. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Khafar View Post
    Just for reference, this is what it has to say about dwarves (in a general sense) in Appendix A of The Lord of the Rings:

    Dís was the daughter of Thráin II. She is the only dwarf-woman named in these histories. It was said by Gimli that there are few dwarf-women, probably no more than a third of the whole people. They seldom walk abroad except at great need, They are in voice and appearance, and in garb if they must go on a journey, so like to the dwarf-men that the eyes and ears of other peoples cannot tell them apart. This has given rise to the foolish opinion among Men that there are no dwarf-women, and that the Dwarves 'grow out of stone'.

    It is because of the fewness of women among them that the kind of the Dwarves increases slowly, and is in peril when they have no secure dwellings. For Dwarves take only one wife or husband each in their lives, and are jealous, as in all matters of their rights. The number of dwarf-men that marry is actually less than one-third. For not all the women take husbands: some desire none; some desire one that they cannot get, and so will have no other. As for the men, very many also do not desire marriage, being engrossed in their crafts.
    Khafar
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  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Niwashi View Post
    You're partially right. Floating names are a game interface feature rather than a direct representation of what Middle Earth looks like. But they can be as much about roleplaying as describing your actions in the emote channel (as the chat box is another non-representational game interface feature).

    Seeing someone's name and title floating above them is a game interface representation of your character's ability to recognize who they are. It's not a perfect representation, of course, since there should be people you see but don't interact with or only interact with superficially and would not know who they are, and other people you see and recognize so do know who they are. The game can't make that distinction very well, so it just says you know everybody, at least by reputation, and will recognize everyone you see.
    Yes, the floaty names have a role to play in recognising people (although they're still wholly OOC, really) but the same isn't true of the titles. And no, titles aren't anything like the same as emoting actions: one is active (you saying what you do) and is supposed to be in-character, the other passive and entirely out of character because there's no way that information could 'really' be being conveyed.

    Titles in particular are exclusively about roleplaying, and serve no other function. They indicate what your character is best known for, so would be a part of what other characters would recognize them for and associate them with. It's not necessarily what other players would know them for, however; it's a character-level recognition, so yes it is in-character.
    Rubbish. It could only be in-character if they were holding up a damn sign with those words on, or if they'd had them tattooed on their forehead.

  19. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    Yes, the floaty names have a role to play in recognising people (although they're still wholly OOC, really) but the same isn't true of the titles. And no, titles aren't anything like the same as emoting actions: one is active (you saying what you do) and is supposed to be in-character, the other passive and entirely out of character because there's no way that information could 'really' be being conveyed.
    Yes, it's passive, but that's because being recognized by someone else is a passive thing for the person being recognized and an automatic rather than volitional thing for the person recognizing them. It's still in-character because it's your *character* who is being recognized and represents the fact that other *characters* would recognize them.


    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Niwashi View Post
    Titles in particular are exclusively about roleplaying, and serve no other function. #They indicate what your character is best known for, so would be a part of what other characters would recognize them for and associate them with. #It's not necessarily what other players would know them for, however; it's a character-level recognition, so yes it is in-character.
    Rubbish. It could only be in-character if they were holding up a damn sign with those words on, or if they'd had them tattooed on their forehead.
    No. You can recognize people you know or people who are famous without needing them to hold up a sign saying who they are and what they're famous for, and so can your characters. Your characters live in Middle Earth and have all the general knowledge that comes with living in their particular region, including knowing who's who. Now, I've already acknowledged that it's a bit unrealistic how we seem to know everyone, but that's a concession to the fact that it would be prohibitively difficult for the game to sort out who our characters would be able to recognize and who they wouldn't, so it says they can recognize everyone. After all, simply having a title available to select for your character means it's something which your character is known for, so is assumed to be general knowledge for other characters to have. Our characters are all at least somewhat famous for something, even if it's just for winning a pie-eating contest.

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Niwashi View Post
    Yes, it's passive, but that's because being recognized by someone else is a passive thing for the person being recognized and an automatic rather than volitional thing for the person recognizing them. It's still in-character because it's your *character* who is being recognized and represents the fact that other *characters* would recognize them.
    No, it's not really because floating names are an OOC channel for that information. That's why you're not really supposed to know a character's name unless it's come to you in proper RP. Floating names are only okay as an OOC aid to the player in recognising people on-screen, but in themselves they're absolutely never in-character in any way.

    No. You can recognize people you know or people who are famous without needing them to hold up a sign saying who they are and what they're famous for, and so can your characters. Your characters live in Middle Earth and have all the general knowledge that comes with living in their particular region, including knowing who's who. Now, I've already acknowledged that it's a bit unrealistic how we seem to know everyone, but that's a concession to the fact that it would be prohibitively difficult for the game to sort out who our characters would be able to recognize and who they wouldn't, so it says they can recognize everyone. After all, simply having a title available to select for your character means it's something which your character is known for, so is assumed to be general knowledge for other characters to have. Our characters are all at least somewhat famous for something, even if it's just for winning a pie-eating contest.
    No. You can only legitimately recognize people by virtue of knowing something in-character about them before-hand (something about what they look like, for example, or something particular they often wear or carry), and titles are only at all in-character if you hear about them by some means other than that floating text. Otherwise it's information your character should not have and making any use of it is OOC. And that's especially true given that the title being displayed at any moment is selected by the player themselves, out of what can be a wide selection (held in common with many other characters), and can change. It's debatable how IC many of those titles even are when questing is typically OOC (since our characters can't all have done the exact same things!) and we all have a lot of the same ones. That means you can't insist that titles are in-character. The really suspect part is them being self-selected - if they were real, such titles would be gained by reputation or acclaim and you wouldn't get to pick the one you wanted, you'd just get what you were given (much as with nicknames). Picking the one you think sounds cool is OOC, too.

  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neumi View Post
    ... and set the according female titles ... whoops.
    Only a handful of the hundreds of titles you can choose have a gender reference in them, at least in English. Is this a problem in other languages?

    Of course, I'll never see it anyway, because I turn all of that off - including floating names. I like a very "clean" world view. If I want to know your name, I hover over you for a moment (or talk to you), and titles don't interest me - not even my own .

    Khafar

  22. #72
    Personally I'd like to see this implimented, but I can understand why it isn't.

  23. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    and titles are only at all in-character if you hear about them by some means other than that floating text.
    I disagree. Titles represent epithets given by the common people to heroes and heroines in recognition of their extraordinary deeds. They are common knowledge. Indeed, bards and minstrels make a living spreading such information in the form of stories and songs. In role play, I may not know that person over there is Bob Bobson, Bane of Goblins, but if someone points to the fellow and says, "See that fellow over there? That be none other than Bob Bobson!", my character, having lived in the area for some time, would and should quickly attach Bob Bobson to Bane of Goblins, or at least suspect the connection.

    Edit: I see titles much like biographies, role playing hooks, helping players seeking new role play partners to make a connection. As with biographies, one may choose to use them or ignore them.
    Last edited by Vexendynamus; Sep 21 2013 at 06:01 PM.

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vexendynamus View Post
    I disagree. Titles represent epithets given by the common people to heroes and heroines in recognition of their extraordinary deeds. They are common knowledge. Indeed, bards and minstrels make a living spreading such information in the form of stories and songs. In role play, I may not know that person over there is Bob Bobson, Bane of Goblins, but if someone points to the fellow and says, "See that fellow over there? That be none other than Bob Bobson!", my character, having lived in the area for some time, would and should quickly attach Bob Bobson to Bane of Goblins, or at least suspect the connection.
    What, when everyone has a plethora of the silly things, everyone supposedly remembers which ones everyone else has? And Bob Bobson might feel like being "Bane of Goblins" today but all of a sudden tomorrow he may be "Spider-slayer" or whatever, and something else the day after that. It's OOC, the fact it's in floating text and that the PLAYER has arbitrarily decided which one to display. How the hell is everyone you meet really supposed to know that you feel like being the spider bloke today?

    Edit: I see titles much like biographies, role playing hooks, helping players seeking new role play partners to make a connection. As with biographies, one may choose to use them or ignore them.
    Bios are OOC as well! "Oh hi, I have my whole life history written on this parchment and nailed to my forehead so you can read it!" You shouldn't use them directly in RP either.

  25. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by WBS View Post
    "Dwarves wanted their women to be protected from other races and they usually kept them concealed inside their mountain halls. They seldom traveled in the outside world, only in great need, and when they did, they were dressed as men; with similar voice and appearance as male dwarves, even when they are rarely seen they are usually mistaken for a male. All Dwarves had beards from the beginning of their lives"

    J.R.R. Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien (ed.), The War of the Jewels, "Part Two. The Later Quenta Silmarillion: Concerning the Dwarves (Chapter 13)".
    Quote Originally Posted by Khafar View Post
    Dís was the daughter of Thráin II. She is the only dwarf-woman named in these histories. It was said by Gimli that there are few dwarf-women, probably no more than a third of the whole people. They seldom walk abroad except at great need, They are in voice and appearance, and in garb if they must go on a journey, so like to the dwarf-men that the eyes and ears of other peoples cannot tell them apart. This has given rise to the foolish opinion among Men that there are no dwarf-women, and that the Dwarves 'grow out of stone'.

    It is because of the fewness of women among them that the kind of the Dwarves increases slowly, and is in peril when they have no secure dwellings. For Dwarves take only one wife or husband each in their lives, and are jealous, as in all matters of their rights. The number of dwarf-men that marry is actually less than one-third. For not all the women take husbands: some desire none; some desire one that they cannot get, and so will have no other. As for the men, very many also do not desire marriage, being engrossed in their crafts.
    Thank you both for the direct quotes!

    "usually kept them concealed"
    "seldom traveled in the outside world"
    "usually mistaken for a male"
    "except at great need"

    Based on those quotes, I am inclined to support game recognition of dwarf gender. The vast majority of characters in this game represent superlative heroes and heroines, destined for memory in legend and folk tale. They are the exceptions, not the rule. They will be the subject of epic stories and songs for centuries to come. The MMO construct allows many such heroes and heroines to congregate in the same place at the same time, but even that rings true. Just as Jason assembled the Argonauts and Agamemnon assembled a mighty host to make war upon Troy, our characters in LOTRO assemble to make war upon Sauron. I have no problem with exceptional female dwarves joining the fray, and I have no problem with the game engine recognizing that fact.

 

 
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