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  1. #26
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    373
    Quote Originally Posted by Finduilas88 View Post
    I'm confused by your last line, are you referring to AoE damage or AoE threat generation? I know the two things are related, but earlier you were talking about Challenge, which as you know is threat generation without damage.

    IMO, I think it's premature to assume that the dev diary was talking about reducing AoE threat skills in everything but the FoS line. For one thing, that would really make no sense for DotF since it's being thought of as the main tanking line. When I read that I interpreted it as meaning an increase in the AoE attacks & damage for FoS, which I would definitely welcome.

    That was meant to say threat not damage. I'm so awesome at typing

    They wouldnt need to reduce aoe threat for it to be bad. Our base aoe is pretty weak to begin with. If they take all the aoe bonuses away from our tank line. Which was kind of implied. We could be in a bad spot.
    Belegarod - Guard \ Belegarond-1 - Captain / Belegorond - Champion \ Maveryck - Runekeeper / Glaxe-1 - Burg \ Atwo-1 - LM / Jaspir - Warden \ Gladden

  2. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by usernamealreadyinuse View Post
    That was meant to say threat not damage. I'm so awesome at typing

    They wouldnt need to reduce aoe threat for it to be bad. Our base aoe is pretty weak to begin with. If they take all the aoe bonuses away from our tank line. Which was kind of implied. We could be in a bad spot.
    I don't think that's implied at all. It's far more likely, IMO, that the dev was referring to increasing the AoE *damage* abilities in the FoS line to differentiate it from the others. As I said in my earlier message, I think it's extremely premature to assume that AoE threat generation is being reduced in DotF; if anything, based on the very vague hints about changes to the threat mechanic, it sounds like threat generation will be easier than it has been.

  3. #28
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    373
    Quote Originally Posted by Finduilas88 View Post
    I don't think that's implied at all. It's far more likely, IMO, that the dev was referring to increasing the AoE *damage* abilities in the FoS line to differentiate it from the others. As I said in my earlier message, I think it's extremely premature to assume that AoE threat generation is being reduced in DotF; if anything, based on the very vague hints about changes to the threat mechanic, it sounds like threat generation will be easier than it has been.
    I didnt say it was a sure thing but the dev diary does say that KB and DotF lines are weak on aoe attacks. It didnt specify whether that meant damage or threat but I think the term 'attacks' could quite easily apply to both.

    "provided a bit more access to AoE attacks, an area where the other two lines are a bit weak."

    Given that our base aoe capacity is pretty poor already. I think it's a fairly reasonable concern.


    Extra targets seem to be regarded as a luxury by the devs, but more and more now they are becoming a necessity. I want them to tell us they are buffing our aoe threat capacity to be on par with the 8 to 10 targets that a warden can hit. I don't want them to be hinting at the possibility of a nerf. I'd really like some more clarity on the subject to be honest.




    Also, the ability to generate threat and the ability to hit a lot of mobs with that threat are not necessarily the same thing.
    Belegarod - Guard \ Belegarond-1 - Captain / Belegorond - Champion \ Maveryck - Runekeeper / Glaxe-1 - Burg \ Atwo-1 - LM / Jaspir - Warden \ Gladden

  4. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by usernamealreadyinuse View Post
    I didnt say it was a sure thing but the dev diary does say that KB and DotF lines are weak on aoe attacks. It didnt specify whether that meant damage or threat but I think the term 'attacks' could quite easily apply to both.

    "provided a bit more access to AoE attacks, an area where the other two lines are a bit weak."

    Given that our base aoe capacity is pretty poor already. I think it's a fairly reasonable concern.


    Extra targets seem to be regarded as a luxury by the devs, but more and more now they are becoming a necessity. I want them to tell us they are buffing our aoe threat capacity to be on par with the 8 to 10 targets that a warden can hit. I don't want them to be hinting at the possibility of a nerf. I'd really like some more clarity on the subject to be honest.




    Also, the ability to generate threat and the ability to hit a lot of mobs with that threat are not necessarily the same thing.
    We haven't seen the Warden Dev Diary yet. Perhaps they are getting their number of targets nerfed as well, on top of the other nerfs that that class needs. I would like us to be equals, not Guardian to be what you bring because you can't find another good Warden.

  5. #30
    Saying holding aggro is easy and that you just build it at the beggining and then do nothing... is correct! BUT if you have a radical dps in your group , what you gonna do then? You have to keep threating as much as you can if you are to stand 4k+ dps with no threat transfers on you... Blue line in my opinon will get ####ed, and when i saw that we will do some minor buffs and be building mits while we go, i just facepalmed. Hope they prove me wrong tho and the update will be good, but still don't know why the hell must they change the trait line in a way almost all games have it (trees) and why reduce skill count :l. Looking at new mmorpgs, you have like 4-8 skills, don't want lotro to become one of them as with that many skills, the saying "char is only as good as the player playing it" will not be true anymore as the acctuall skill of the player will become less and less of a factor.
    Last edited by Menko; Sep 22 2013 at 05:21 PM.

  6. #31
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    728
    Well... I think the dev probably polished 2/3 lines... With the following issues:

    1. Group content might be easy enough to tank in Overpower. Would that really surprise anyone, given the last patch?
    2. The focus on raiding has been disappearing, and without raids... Does anyone need a tank with high mitigations?

    The biggest challenge for good guardians in the past was threat generation, and there was a certain amount of build-tweaking you could do to help with that. Or you could tweak your build for higher mitigations... If threat is no longer an issue... You'd expect everyone (smart) to have the same builds... Stack as much mits as you can, hitting good breakpoints for incoming healing and morale.

    BUT... as to my 2nd point... Typically group content doesn't require a tank with amazing mitigations... I mean typically a captain could tank any group content, with mobs he's unable to grab just getting picked off first by good party members. SO if you don't need those extra mitigations for group content, then what is a guardian going to do? He's going to get bored and probably go tank in OP like we used to... And since the raid isn't going to come out for 3-4 months (if it comes out at all)...

    Well bottom line I think tank-line will be thought out but un-used because of content. DPS line will be used a lot. FOS line sounds like the dev didn't know what to do with it (Nor do i blame him) and it will probably be used by guardians because they don't need tank-line mits in group content, and they're bored.

    All in all i'd prefer they not have made threat changes... But maybe it's for the better, because we've all had too many guardians that didn't know how to tank. The good ones will still understand mob-positioning and movement... If that ever becomes a factor.

    Not too excited, but at least we're getting an update for once.
    .
    85 (Captain, Champion, Guardian)

  7. #32
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Phoenix
    Posts
    590
    Quote Originally Posted by GrimbleGrumble View Post
    Don't worry about threat anymore, just worry about dpsing while you tank. I guess some people will like that.

    I would like to pm our guardian developer but don't know how. can someone enlighten me please?

  8. #33
    I have a sneaking suspicion our dev never understood that one of the base designs of this game was that dps could take threat whenever it wanted to. That's been fundamental to all classes since before beta. Me thinks soon one can derp/faceroll keyboard in even the most "challenging" of group content, if it still exits after this.

  9. #34
    In the end won't there just be one optimum line and won't all tanks(guardians not wardens) run that way?

  10. #35
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    South Dakota
    Posts
    2,884
    Quote Originally Posted by Bendin View Post
    I have a sneaking suspicion our dev never understood that one of the base designs of this game was that dps could take threat whenever it wanted to. That's been fundamental to all classes since before beta. Me thinks soon one can derp/faceroll keyboard in even the most "challenging" of group content, if it still exits after this.
    I think you've taken my still-churning thoughts on the matter and put them to words. I group with a spectacular hunter. We know each-other's nuances. I can always hold aggro from him, because he's playing smart. If I happen to lose a peel, assuming it's not the boss I'll just let him take it because I know it will be dead in seconds (and normally it's planned). If he decided to pull out all the stops at the beginning of a fight, and Engage/CtD were on cooldown, I'd have trouble picking everything back up. It's one of the best parts of tanking in this game - the fact that I always have to be working at it, not just sitting there hitting Ward.

    I personally don't care about DPS. Overpower was fun in PvMP and when running 3-man instances (prior to the Rohan changes, of course), but I'd much rather be a solid wall than a damage powerhouse. And now it looks like we're going to lose some effectiveness in the FoS line?

    I don't know if it's uncommon or not, but I tend to run 4 yellow / 3 blue when I'm tanking. I guess I'll just have to wait and see if something like that is still viable, even if I have to change up the lines I trait in.
    [B][COLOR=red]Turn[/COLOR] - Guardian
    [COLOR=red]Balandolen[/COLOR] - Lore-master
    [COLOR=red]Turnholm[/COLOR] - Minstrel

    [/B]

  11. #36

    Talking Guardian changes

    I'm a young guardian myself and having read the dev diary about the upcoming changes on the guardian class i can say that i am pretty much intrigued by the way they are trying to make the class work.

    For starters it seems like that the keen blade tree wont be just a suplementary tree skill with the small dps potential that it used to be.
    Plus the whole bleed mehanic makes the class a bit unique. For example wardens have the gambit system while Rune Keepers have the attunement system and Champions the Fervour system.
    Now guardians can be something else than just plain skill pushing and counterattacking or just waiting for a parry response (on the keen blade line) while tanking with the threat washdown coming in helms deep will actually be based more on the players ability to handle the class rather than certain skills that make threat holding easy.

    As i said i am a young guardian player so if anything that i mentioned is incorrect please feel free to correct me and give me your insight on the "New dps guardian"

  12. #37
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    902
    Quote Originally Posted by Arenthas View Post
    ...feel free to correct me and give me your insight on the "New dps guardian"
    You probably have to wait till open beta for this. Everyone who knows details is currently in closed beta and under NDA.
    Suggestions: Tasks [URL="http://goo.gl/rt4M5"]en[/URL]|[URL="http://goo.gl/BBbhC"]de[/URL]

  13. #38
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Carson City, Nevada
    Posts
    467
    Quote Originally Posted by Bendin View Post
    I have a sneaking suspicion our dev never understood that one of the base designs of this game was that dps could take threat whenever it wanted to. That's been fundamental to all classes since before beta. Me thinks soon one can derp/faceroll keyboard in even the most "challenging" of group content, if it still exits after this.

    Except that this isn't really true either and hasn't been for a long time in the game. Only when the game first came out was this mostly true. But even now, a tank that knows that they're doing can hold agro over any DPS, except in the most extreme situations.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/032020000000a6424/01003/signature.png]Carthir[/charsig]

  14. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by lestat86 View Post
    Except that this isn't really true either and hasn't been for a long time in the game. Only when the game first came out was this mostly true. But even now, a tank that knows that they're doing can hold agro over any DPS, except in the most extreme situations.
    find better dps or one who has no idea how to throttle. But agreed these days there is not much worth tanking.

  15. #40
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Carson City, Nevada
    Posts
    467
    Quote Originally Posted by Bendin View Post
    find better dps or one who has no idea how to throttle. But agreed these days there is not much worth tanking.
    pretty sure I've tanked with the cream of the crop in DPSers on our server, and while it does happen on a rare occassion and at times I have to work pretty hard at it, it mostly doesn't happen .
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/032020000000a6424/01003/signature.png]Carthir[/charsig]

 

 
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