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  1. #1

    Guardian Dev Diary

    http://www.lotro.com/en/game/article...E2%80%99s-deep

    The Guardian's development diary is out, and quite frankly I am quite intrigued from what I see. The idea of focusing damage around stacking bleeds sounds nice, and so does fortification. I am a little curious how the Fighter of Shadow three will work out, but all in all I think it's all a step in the right direction.
    "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."

  2. #2
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    Since i think the conversation will move here eventually ill just copy my post, because my interest is so high in these changes....

    I find these changes amazingly positive.. If one thing is clear Guardians will no longer be a "basic" class... And i find that thrilling..

    Two things for me are still an unknown... Threat management and the "fighter of shadow" tree...
    How will we deal with threat? And the specifics of the last tree are still a mystery...

    The changes to keen blade, especially the choice between bleeds and higher dps sound really good.. The choices you make will distinct the good guards from the bad pretty easily not only in this tree..
    In the defender of the free i need more threat talk to be honest but the buff approach and yet more choices (damn i love choices ) are quite interesting...

    After more then 3 years of neglect and that godawful guard dev this is a breath of fresh air...

    Ofc we cant be sure how well all this will work on release date but simply the approach, instead of just rehashing the same old, show me the enthusiasm of our new dev... I find that reassuring..

    "survivability-based playstyle to compensate for the future ease of threat management" I think we really need more clarification on this.. .. Thats the only problem i have with the diary..
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  3. #3
    Don't worry about threat anymore, just worry about dpsing while you tank. I guess some people will like that.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrimbleGrumble View Post
    Don't worry about threat anymore, just worry about dpsing while you tank. I guess some people will like that.
    You brought some sarcasm with you

    Dps seems to be important only when off-tanking.... I find that ok
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  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by zagreb000 View Post
    You brought some sarcasm with you

    Dps seems to be important only when off-tanking.... I find that ok
    As far as I can tell, 2 of our 3 lines are now dps oriented. Our former threat line is now active mitigation line. Oh, sure, we'll still have LoD and maybe even Shield-Taunt, but it certainly sounds like we are going to be more focused on debuffing and active mitigation than generating threat. You have already said you're ok with this, but I'm not.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrimbleGrumble View Post
    As far as I can tell, 2 of our 3 lines are now dps oriented. Our former threat line is now active mitigation line. Oh, sure, we'll still have LoD and maybe even Shield-Taunt, but it certainly sounds like we are going to be more focused on debuffing and active mitigation than generating threat. You have already said you're ok with this, but I'm not.
    No, i actually said, more then a few times, that we need more clarification on threat management.. While i say we need more info you seem to be already sure about it... Only one line is Dps oriented while the other is half and half.... Dev clearly states that....
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  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by zagreb000 View Post
    No, i actually said, more then a few times, that we need more clarification on threat management.. While i say we need more info you seem to be already sure about it... Only one line is Dps oriented while the other is half and half.... Dev clearly states that....

    Quote Originally Posted by GrimbleGrumble
    I'm not trying to be "that guy," but I see several indications that Guardian is changing a whole lot, and that worries me. I am trying not to suggest that the sky is falling, but this mention of how "many of us know" about threat revamps is a bit scary, when I haven't read anything specific about that.

    Quote Originally Posted by zagreb000
    So you dont like change.... I for one am thrilled that is happening...
    Forgive me for quoting from the other thread. Perhaps I misunderstand you, but when I say I'm worried about many Guardian changes, specifically threat revamps, and you say "I for one am thrilled that is happening," I have to assume you are ok with it. Yes I have seen you say we need more clarification on the threat revamp, but you still seem to say you are "thrilled that is happening...".

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrimbleGrumble View Post
    Forgive me for quoting from the other thread. Perhaps I misunderstand you, but when I say I'm worried about many Guardian changes, specifically threat revamps, and you say "I for one am thrilled that is happening," I have to assume you are ok with it. Yes I have seen you say we need more clarification on the threat revamp, but you still seem to say you are "thrilled that is happening...".
    Ok, i see now...

    Im thrilled that the changes i listed as positive are being implemented.. The issue with threat management i listed as something we need more clarification on.. I cant say im thrilled about it, or the complete opposite since we dont know much about it. We need more info, or we need to wait and see before making a judgement on things not clear like the threat management... The rest i like....
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  9. #9
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    I'm not sure why a threat revamp was mentioned in a way which made it seem like we should know about those changes already. If they plan on changing threat mechanics, well...ok, that's their choice, but boy oh boy they need to be careful. I'm not going to assume that we won't need to actively build and maintain threat, but, yeah, if this turns into WoW tanking, that's going to be a deal-breaker.

    Really, really hope there's some clarification on this soon.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Solien View Post
    I'm not going to assume that we won't need to actively build and maintain threat, but, yeah, if this turns into WoW tanking, that's going to be a deal-breaker.
    What is WoW tanking like? Is it purely passive tanking?
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  11. #11
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    I posted this exact same thing on the official discussion forum, but I think I would rather discuss it here with my fellow guardians so I'm going to just copy paste my post over.




    I don't think easy threat management is a problem. For one thing, I don't think threat management is difficult right now at all. With a solid first age belt and liberal use of CtD and engage. You should be able to hold aggro in any reasonable situation. There is a certain other MMO out there, its quite popular, you may have heard of it. Tanking in that game is very easy in terms of threat management. Tanking traited characters get an inherent +500% threat buff iirc. Because you don't have to spend time focusing your rotation on generating the most threat possible it allows the classes to be focused on more active means of mitigation. Their tanks also do a decent amount of damage, which is always nice.

    Personally, I would prefer easy threat management and a focus on active mitigation rather than difficult threat management and a very passive approach to mitigation.


    Edit: this was posted just before me so Im going to add some explaination here

    Quote Originally Posted by Crell_1 View Post
    What is WoW tanking like? Is it purely passive tanking?
    I have a paladin in Wow. When you play prot, it's pretty much impossible to not have aggro. The focus of the gameplay is instead on building and spending your class resource, in this case, Holy Power. Your filler abilities generate this resource, then you have the choice to either spend it to do damage or to heal yourself/increase survivability. It provides much more flexibility in terms of offensive and defensive play.






    The was something in the dev diary that I believe is of much more concern to us. In the FoS section, it says "provided a bit more access to AoE attacks, an area where the other two lines are a bit weak". It says that the other two lines are weak on AoE. Meaning our actual tank line is weak on AoE. If that refers to the number of targets we can reach with AoE taunts/challenge. This is going to be a very very bad thing for us.

    If that is the case, I would strongly suggest reconsidering this. We should have the base ability to hit 10 targets with challenge and at least one regular taunt like litany. I hate that right now, I have to have two legacies and 6 traits in order to be properly effective in AoE situations. Weak on AoE attacks is fine. Weak on AoE threat is not.
    Last edited by usernamealreadyinuse; Sep 18 2013 at 09:50 PM.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crell_1 View Post
    What is WoW tanking like? Is it purely passive tanking?
    Well, I haven't played it, but supposedly it's pretty much auto-lock with the right skills. An ex-kinmate of mine played it for a bit and told me about it. That was back during the Long Dark of Moria, so at the time I thought it sounded okay, but now I'd have no interest in a system like that.

    EDIT: obviously, if anyone has played it, some clarification would be helpful.
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  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Crell_1 View Post
    What is WoW tanking like? Is it purely passive tanking?
    Huge passive bonus to threat if you are traited (talent specialization) for tanking. Several skills with cooldowns that are are basically used in a staggered fashion to help mitigate damage. So, for example. Guardian's Pledge, Warrior's Fortitude, and maybe 3 or so other abilities with a 2-5 minute cooldown to help stay alive. Other than that you can practically do nothing and you won't lose aggro. Basically if you have the specialization, no matter how bad you are, you will keep threat in all but the most extreme situations (i.e. you actually do go afk early in a fight AND you have a really strong DPS that outgears you badly, since the geargaps over there are much wider than ours are in endgame).

  14. #14
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    The bleed line wouldnt have much use in pve, since DoT only work the best on high morale mobs. But in PvP it would be the beast.

    The tanking line doesnt change much I think.

    The AoE line - off tank line, I couldnt say much. Its depend on the AoE damage and threat and the "healing mark". If the AoE damage suck, we cannot expect to be a "dps" in the group. If the AoE threat suck, we cannot tank against champ. If the healing/survival suck, then the warden would be prefered over us for tanking 3-6 man without heal like they have always been.

  15. #15
    If they actually provide us with an actual active survival system, I'd be vaguely okay with threat becoming easy mode, but barring the sudden introduction of gambits, I can't see a lot of fun gameplay. Hitting guardian's ward every 20 seconds and knowing when to use pledge just doesn't make for excitement. Now, if our base build only had 40% mits and 0% inc healing or really low bpe, and we had to actively use skills to buff ourselves up to our accustomed invulnerable state, then I'd be fine. Not holding my breath, as that would be just as hard for the bottom 95% to pull off as actively managing threat is presently. Guardian was never hard, hell, it took years of neglect and skyrocketing dps'ers to make things interesting, I'd hate to see a needed revamp of the class simultaneously siphon off the player skill component that made me keep playing my guardian.

  16. #16
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    "My initial hopes were to somehow combine these bonuses with the essence of the Overpower stance (high base and crit damage) to create a fully functional DPS option for the Guardian. I wanted the Guardian to be able to hold his own when it came to damage numbers and not simply be viewed as a wannabe Champion."

    i'm happy. graalx2 begrudgingly gave us a 'dps' role at the expense of survivability and gave us the clunkiest damage rotation ever that relied solely on the maintank getting a lot of parry reactives and also not having protection from another guard. i still like smashing with a hammer, and i can make it work in some cases (like especially AoE pulls), but there's still a huge perception problem with the class and single-target burst damage sucks, single-target sustained gets better over time, but only slightly. my RK gets better over time, but it ramps up really quickly at a certain point and there's plenty of burst.
    the only think my guard really has over my RK is better on-demand AoE
    i'm extremely happy about stacking bleeds (up to 10! holy cow) and being able to cash it all out with overwhelm and hit for a huge burst hit. like guards will have an execute move. does any other class even have that in this game?

    fighter of shadow sounds amazing. it'll be interesting to see how it all works out, because i know they expect and encourage hybridization. if keen blade is set up for single-target and shadow is AoE, i wonder how much AoE i can pick up while specced for keen blade.
    and being able to offtank, tank two-handed, and provide support. it'll be a very interesting class to play imo.

    and defender tanking will be fine imo. i like doing it, but managing threat was just a silly minigame part of tanking anyway. the real purpose of tanking is battlefield control, so i welcome easier threat management, especially since so few dps classes seem to understand that it's a group effort.
    also, juggernaut is still the most epic defensive cooldown to exist in any game ever.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrimbleGrumble View Post
    Don't worry about threat anymore, just worry about dpsing while you tank. I guess some people will like that.
    same thing?
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    Just wondering about the "marks" that were mentioned. Any idea if those are going to be similar in any fashion to the Captain's marks?
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grindl View Post
    Just wondering about the "marks" that were mentioned. Any idea if those are going to be similar in any fashion to the Captain's marks?
    No, it's similar to the burglar's trick. Trick is a debuff mark that when you remove trick by some skills, you can get self-heal, stun, or other effect. Althought I dont think the guard mark have debuff effect.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by usernamealreadyinuse View Post
    The was something in the dev diary that I believe is of much more concern to us. In the FoS section, it says "provided a bit more access to AoE attacks, an area where the other two lines are a bit weak". It says that the other two lines are weak on AoE. Meaning our actual tank line is weak on AoE. If that refers to the number of targets we can reach with AoE taunts/challenge. This is going to be a very very bad thing for us.

    If that is the case, I would strongly suggest reconsidering this. We should have the base ability to hit 10 targets with challenge and at least one regular taunt like litany. I hate that right now, I have to have two legacies and 6 traits in order to be properly effective in AoE situations. Weak on AoE attacks is fine. Weak on AoE damage is not.
    I'm confused by your last line, are you referring to AoE damage or AoE threat generation? I know the two things are related, but earlier you were talking about Challenge, which as you know is threat generation without damage.

    IMO, I think it's premature to assume that the dev diary was talking about reducing AoE threat skills in everything but the FoS line. For one thing, that would really make no sense for DotF since it's being thought of as the main tanking line. When I read that I interpreted it as meaning an increase in the AoE attacks & damage for FoS, which I would definitely welcome.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by bohbashum View Post
    same thing?
    Really? You think dps=threat for a Guardian?

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by GrimbleGrumble View Post
    Really? You think dps=threat for a Guardian?
    Dps contributes to threat, but only in a linear fashion. Taunts are much more effective.
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  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Devinish View Post
    Dps contributes to threat, but only in a linear fashion. Taunts are much more effective.
    Well yeah. I didn't suggest that dps caused 0 threat, that would be absurd. But the guy I was originally quoting said that threat and dps were the same thing. Surely you disagree with that, as you have stated that taunts are much more effective.

  24. #24
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    Disclaimer: Assuming when HD goes live, all the changes actually work.

    --------------

    I'm extremely stoked to see the new changes/improvements, but honestly I'm worried about the amount of lag the extra buffs/debuffs will have on our systems. Can anyone in the beta (I hope there is a beta) for HD test this?
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGilthanas View Post
    Disclaimer: Assuming when HD goes live, all the changes actually work.

    --------------

    I'm extremely stoked to see the new changes/improvements, but honestly I'm worried about the amount of lag the extra buffs/debuffs will have on our systems. Can anyone in the beta (I hope there is a beta) for HD test this?
    My concern as well.. Im really interested in how all the new animations will work with our class.. In moors rvr since im on a low end system, TTK and brutal assault would give me some problems..
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