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  1. #76
    When Verizal referred to "As many of you may know..." he/she must have been referring to the other devs that are going to read the diary because clearly nobody here has heard anything about that. Wouldn't it be great to get some clarification on something so important?
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0d21600000000958b/01001/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

  2. #77
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    These changes are very worrying. First off, Threat management:
    ...for the future ease of threat management.
    I really shiver at this, because managing threat for me is a big part of what makes my Guardian a challenging class to play. Easing threat management does really not look in any way appealing to me. Further more I'm in total agreement with the quote of Enfiladed below (even though it's not my biggest problem/worry of this dev dairy):
    Quote Originally Posted by Enfiladed View Post
    My biggest problem with the dev diary is this: the idea of 'Threat Tree' and 'Tanking Tree'. Lets be very clear (and I intend no disrespect) THREAT and TANKING are inextricably linked together. You can't be a Tank class without threat, so having those as parallel ideas is just ridiculous. Blue line was NOT a 'threat' line it was an AoE tanking line (most of the skills dealt with threat, true, but that is what made an AoE tank a TANK) and Yellow was not a 'tank' line it was a single target survivability line. It really feels like this dev has completely misunderstood what makes a guard a guard. Talking about "...charging headlong into battle, covered in plate, and swinging a giant axe..." to me says champ, and not guard. I like charging headlong into battle with my giant SHIELD defending my friends while they swing giant axes at things.

    Mindless threat is just a deal breaker for me...snip...I mean do I just spam Guards Ward for my rotation now or what?
    Secondly, Play styles:
    Quote from The Keen Blade paragraph:
    I found myself left with a bunch of useful traits that did not really meld together into any singular play-style.
    Quote from The Defender of the Free paragraph:
    There were a lot of passive bonuses to give this line a solid ‘mitigation tank’ sort of feel, but nothing that really held the tree together or defined any sort of unique playstyle.
    Quote from The Fighter of Shadow paragraph:
    The playstyle was not distinct, and Guardian was left feeling like a watered-down version of both other trees combined.
    Emphasis are added by me. The big problem for me is that each Trait line is reflecting a different play-style, and whilst that in itself is not really different from the trait lines we have now, I have a play-style of my own. A play style that uses traits from all 3 trait lines (ie. 3 traits of Then Keen Blade, 2 traits of The Defender of the Free and 2 traits of The Fighter of Shadow). My play-style enables me to do what I *like* to do in the game, I am able to tank (and manage threat in an ordinary fashion) and be able to do dps when needed or when I want. With these changes it feels like I am being forced to choose between tanking or dps or some sort of captain/burg/lm variation with those marks...I want the freedom to define my own play-style (which I have done over the course of the past 6,5 years) and do NOT like to be restricted to only a couple of play-style options! With the upcoming changes I feel that Turbine is 'forcing' me to adopt a different play-style and that is a real deal breaker.
    [CENTER][B]Smartbean[/B] lvl 85 GRD - [B]Smartleaf[/B] lvl 78 LM - [B]Smarty[/B] lvl 75 CPT - [B]Smartina[/B] lvl 66 WRD - [B]Smartor[/B] lvl 66 CHMP[/CENTER]
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  3. #78
    Future ease of threat management..

    scary..



    I thought all classes should be responsible for maintaining some lvl of aggro management, this is part of the fun. This doesn't fall exclusively on the tank. It isn't solely up to the tank to manage everyone's aggro. If a hunter pulls more then once, the hunter needs to rethink the skills he's using. Half of the challenge of being a tank is to be able to hold and keep aggro against high dmg classes.

    IMO a tank isn't a dps monster, its not a champ, its not a hunter.. it's a tank, its there to take/keep mobs off the group.... its a painfully slow grind for all else but perfect for what it does.. in groups.. which we seem to be getting away from in the game. Maybe I don't understand why you are making it easier to make the tank manage everyone else's aggro.
    Founding Member of the Vocal Minority....

    "Well my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle."
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  4. #79
    Whats make me more scared is that we got like 50+ posts with questions about threat management and we still no have a respondse on it...?

    Whats the Threat managemend thing we all should know???!!

  5. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Brastin View Post
    Whats make me more scared is that we got like 50+ posts with questions about threat management and we still no have a respondse on it...?

    Whats the Threat managemend thing we all should know???!!
    Let's go ahead and call it 80 now

  6. #81

    Solo Player

    As a non-raiding, non-grouping, strictly solo, player I'm wondering why I'd ever pick the threat or targeting lines. From this dev diary I feel that I have less, not more, choices.

  7. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by natefu View Post
    As a non-raiding, non-grouping, strictly solo, player I'm wondering why I'd ever pick the threat or targeting lines. From this dev diary I feel that I have less, not more, choices.
    As a formerly-often raiding and grouping player, I'm also wondering why I'd ever pick anything other than Keen Blade. It's always been my choice for soloing (faster kills=faster quest progression), and since there will be no traditional instances or raids in the expansion, there will be no traditional tanking needed, and thus, no need for me to retrait. (We have no real info on the mechanics of Big Battles yet, so maybe some of them will require a tank--but I wouldn't bet on it.)

    I'm as pessimistic as many others about whether the trait tree system and changes to particular traits will enable me to tank in a way that I enjoy, but there's a bigger problem---tanks are becoming obsolete. So debating the merits of a tanking trait line seems like an academic exercise.

    Unless some of the Big Battles require a true tank, I don't expect to level my Guard for this expansion. Why level a Guard to 95 if there will be no one to guard?
    Vikky (105 LM) * Samsgarde (105 Captain) * Iaggo (105 Burg) * Samsgaard (85 Guard, retired) * and various lowbies

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arbornal View Post
    I'm a bit concerned with a few things..

    The "future ease of threat management." Not sure what exactly that will mean, but half the challenge of playing a tank for me has always been managing threat, and I have always really liked that. It sounds as if the main point of tanks will be handled almost automatically now?

    Secondly, the separation of 'tank' trees and 'threat' trees.

    So, honest question here.. Is threat being completely redefined with the release of HD?
    I agree, managing threat is what makes playing a guardian exciting. If indeed threat is redefined for release, it will be a big despoilment to me and many more I imagine.

  9. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Fredelas View Post
    Hey, at least your class got a developer and feedback thread.

    Minstrels (and a few other classes) still haven't heard a peep from anyone at Turbine or had a feedback thread in the past 8 months.
    The devs have been releasing diaries on class changes alphabetically.
    So far they've released diaries for Burgs (Sept 6th), Captains (Sept 12th), Champs (Sept 14th) and Guards (Sept 17th).
    Asuming they stick to releaseing class change diaries alphabetically, you can expect a diary for Hunters next, then LM's, then Minis, then RK's and finally heartless Wadens.

    The next expansion is still two months away, there's no need to start fretting about the remaining classes just yet.
    Therina - Hobbit Guard Rongo - Hobbit Warden
    Frood - Man Minstrel Garmun - Man Captain
    Zorosi - Dwarf Champ Froodaroon - Elf Hunter
    Southern Defenders - Arkenstone (formerly Elendilmir)

  10. #85
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    Unhappy The first class change about which I'm truly disappointed

    Thing 1: Add me to the list of people wanting more info on the changes to threat. Personally, I derive great enjoyment from my Guardian's taunts. For example:
    Litany of Defiance, Shield Taunt: "You can't hit me, na nana nana na!"
    Engage: "I fart in your general direction!"
    Fray the Edge: "Your mother was a hamster, and your father smelled of elderberries!"
    Challenge: "Your mothers all wear army boots!"
    etc.
    There was a time when I didn't know how to keep aggro very well. Then I studied the tooltips and found out which skills generate additional threat. Now, people often compliment me on how well I keep aggro. I really like how I can concentrate on actively increasing threat while my healer is *mostly* responsible for keeping me alive.

    Thing 2: Where's the dips and hybridization? Every other dev diary so far has covered what traits are easily accessible and useful to different builds, but this one makes absolutely no mention of it. I don't think anyone slots more than 5 traits from a single line under the current system.

    Thing 3: Maybe I haven't tanked a hard enough boss yet (I'm only 52, despite the long hours I have invested in this game), but I haven't found much use for the Fighter of Shadow line other than dips. I'm glad this line is getting some attention, and I'd like to see its come close to the value of the other two lines as a primary build. However, some of the changes have me puzzled. Blocking with a two-handed weapon seems almost useless because a) almost all of the block response chain requires a shield, and b) if I'm using a two-hander, I just want to kill the thing already. Parry responses are much more suited for damage anyway. An off-tank who can dish out respectable damage? Sounds much more like a captain to me.

    Thing 4: As others before me have said, "tanking" and threat generation are not mutually exclusive but closely connected. I would consider a good tanking build to be 4-5 Defender traits + 2-3 Fighter traits (under the current system, of course). FoS, as it currently stands, is oriented around survival and power conservation. Only one trait, Selfless Defense, has any direct effect on threat, and it seems out of place anyway.

    Thing 5: The Keen Blade has moar bleeds! I really like this idea. However, I feel like DoT is only effective a) at the beginning of a fight or b) against stronger enemies (i.e. on-level signatures or higher). When fighting normals, I just want to kill the thing already and move on. Perhaps Guardian lines could resemble those of the Rune-keeper, where one line is devoted to DoT and the other focuses on direct damage. I generally slot 4-5 KB traits and use OP when I'm solo in order to save time.

    Overall, this dev diary raises more questions than it answers, and it's the first to truly worry me.
    “Merely having an open mind is nothing. The object of opening the mind, as of opening the mouth, is to shut it again on something solid.” - G.K. Chesterton
    On Vilya (Friends of Frodo): 100 Dwarf GRD Lifthil, R5 | 62 Elf HNT Beinhareth | 47 Hobbit BUR Julo | 47 Man CPT Liftspirit | 35 Man WDN Liftward | 25 Elf RK Liftstoner

  11. #86
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    Arghhh.. Simply: If the threat management isnt dumbed down to the difficulty a porn star has when selling cub scout cookies.. And the changes are well implemented... This should be a glorious day for the guardian class...

    Half my posts, at least 10 to the 15 of them, went on bashing the, horrible horrible ad infinum, job Graalx did with our class.. i finally feel i can rest a bit...
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  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smartbean View Post
    These changes are very worrying. First off, Threat management:

    I really shiver at this, because managing threat for me is a big part of what makes my Guardian a challenging class to play. Easing threat management does really not look in any way appealing to me. Further more I'm in total agreement with the quote of Enfiladed below (even though it's not my biggest problem/worry of this dev dairy):


    Secondly, Play styles:
    Quote from The Keen Blade paragraph:
    Quote from The Defender of the Free paragraph:
    Quote from The Fighter of Shadow paragraph:
    Emphasis are added by me. The big problem for me is that each Trait line is reflecting a different play-style, and whilst that in itself is not really different from the trait lines we have now, I have a play-style of my own. A play style that uses traits from all 3 trait lines (ie. 3 traits of Then Keen Blade, 2 traits of The Defender of the Free and 2 traits of The Fighter of Shadow). My play-style enables me to do what I *like* to do in the game, I am able to tank (and manage threat in an ordinary fashion) and be able to do dps when needed or when I want. With these changes it feels like I am being forced to choose between tanking or dps or some sort of captain/burg/lm variation with those marks...I want the freedom to define my own play-style (which I have done over the course of the past 6,5 years) and do NOT like to be restricted to only a couple of play-style options! With the upcoming changes I feel that Turbine is 'forcing' me to adopt a different play-style and that is a real deal breaker.
    In some classes some traits are only effective with the legendary you get in Moria. So until then these traits are relatively useless or you need one attribute more to get the legendary although you don't want THIS attribute. There are already instrictions, so that will hardly change I think...

    And also it's still possible to make hybrids. In the champion dev diary they mentioned even to encourage to hybridization:
    "One thing that was very important to us was to make sure that we constructed our trees in such a way that encouraged hybridization."

  13. #88
    "the future ease of threat management"

    ....well, looks like I wont be coming back after all.

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sigram View Post
    I am confused by this statement:


    I'm guessing from reading further this is just an editing mistake and that should be off-tank rather than threat maybe?

    Or am I reading this wrong?


    No, actually, you aren't reading a typo. The dev they put in charge of this Genuinely believed at the time of his work that our yellow line was our tanking line. He seemed unaware that for primary tanking blue is what guards trait, with yellow as the supporting extra to that, and as a 'survivability' line, alongside the true 'tanking' line. The dev in question may have been excited to work on the line, but from all I've read, he clearly had no real -Understanding- of how Guards work and what being a guard is, and is like. Especially if he talks about how currently tanking is all just 'passively waiting around for a response to pop'. That shows a criminal lack of understanding of the class and what playing it is currently like.

    In fact, while the diary talks about wanting to make tanking more involved and active... it then goes on to talk about basing the whole thing around building up a passive buff, and either keeping it, or expending it and then building it up again. That's ALL it talks about in the diary... are we then to believe that that's ALL there will be to tanking now? He's listed his reworking of our lines, sure, but threat itself hasn't been mentioned pretty much anywhere at all, except that he spoke there initially about how threat is being reworked, in a way that necessitates him, apparently, having the room to design and develop a WHOLE NEW, UNRELATED tree. Coupled with the lack of MENTION about threat, and all I can see is that he's probably planning to rip it out entirely, and/or convert threat into something that's handled passively and out of OUR hands.

    It certainly doesn't -READ- like Guard is being made more active and involved. It READS like it's being made LESS so... like you're going to be using more skills, and doing LESS overall, because the important stuff will be handled passively, out of your hands.

    I'm all for the camp that says show us a dev diary on threat, and quick.
    [FONT=Verdana][COLOR=white]Rider, Fighter, Virgin, Lover; Watcher, Chaser, Bearer of Pain.[/FONT][/COLOR]
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  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrimbleGrumble View Post
    Oh I appreciate the honesty. And honestly, this Dev never asked for any input on the Guardian forum, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised. I don't see any indication to support your claim of "added complexity." Honestly.
    having read all your comments to this point I had to jump in and whole-heartily agree. It seems this new guardian dev doesn't have much of a clue as to what a guard does and is trying to make it up as he goes. the guard is my main and I have never gone to the bard to change traits as the one i work with is the only one i need to do my job well. Once I find the ultimate build for my playstyle the rest will be thrown to the side like so much garbage. I'm disappointed in him,in the changes and in the trees. It will be bad for all guards and that means nothing much has changed...."same as it ever was"!!

  16. #91
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    As an old player looking to return...

    WELL DONE. The new tree sounds very useful and I am glad to hear of it. Keep up the good work LOTR is a great lore.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0120300000006bcc4/01003/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

  17. #92
    I'm under the impression that guardians are the backbone of the game and if they break that they pretty much break the game. Maybe I'm putting too much into the importance on guards and they really won't be needed much after skill trees are introduced. maybe all you need are guarding Champs or Wardens after the trees come in.
    Mean what you say and say what you mean! If you don't there are always consequences!

  18. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Enfiladed View Post

    My biggest problem with the dev diary is this: the idea of 'Threat Tree' and 'Tanking Tree'. Lets be very clear (and I intend no disrespect) THREAT and TANKING are inextricably linked together. You can't be a Tank class without threat, so having those as parallel ideas is just ridiculous. Blue line was NOT a 'threat' line it was an AoE tanking line (most of the skills dealt with threat, true, but that is what made an AoE tank a TANK) and Yellow was not a 'tank' line it was a single target survivability line. It really feels like this dev has completely misunderstood what makes a guard a guard. Talking about "...charging headlong into battle, covered in plate, and swinging a giant axe..." to me says champ, and not guard. I like charging headlong into battle with my giant SHIELD defending my friends while they swing giant axes at things.

    Mindless threat is just a deal breaker for me. I mean seriously he mentioned 'active survivability' but mentioned ZERO additional survivability skills. Does this mean things are actually going to start hitting harder (and thus making survivability actually matter)? Outside of a 'Fortifaction' buff, which who knows how that is obtained, what other survivability are we going to have to work on? I mean do I just spam Guards Ward for my rotation now or what? Also, give another Burg mark seems totally like a guardian 'thing'.
    I've been playing LotRO since beta days, I'm not really as sharp as most of the posters on this forum, they can quote stats, effects and info that I normally don't commit to memory.

    That said, I've always played a Board & Sword TANK. My motto was always, "Dying to be the center of attention" and I love the tagline of one tank player in LotRO that said "If you died, it was because I was eating" (wish I could remember who).

    Gaining, Controlling and maintaining Agro was always first on my list when I had a chance to run raids or fellowships. It was WORK, not spamming buttons. Solo was just a matter of preserving health while I did what tanks do, whittle down the mob and finish them off. Express DPS wasn't my dream, I was a tank.

    I read every post in this thread and a few things came to light:

    1. Complete silence from any leadership or Dev. I know they're busy, but pop in once and awhile and stoke some coals.
    2. With complete respect, I really don't think our newly assigned class developer has ever played a Guardian other than superficial interactions.
    3. The best line in this thread goes to Enfiladed who rightfully clarified the mindset of a Tank as he enters battle: I like charging headlong into battle with my giant SHIELD defending my friends while they swing giant axes at things

    That, Sir, was spoken like a true Tank if there ever was one. Bravo Zulu

    I've seen a lot of changes in this game... well, actually, I've seen every change in this game. It's now becoming sloppy easy, no effort, little reward, mindless action. Yea, I remember the times when you thought you'd never get out of the 30's with all the grinding, I remember the TONS of material to level in crafting, I remember when you couldn't find #### and had to pray someone had put up a map and guide to help you locate your quest. Now I feel like a robo-guided mindless tank (which might be truer to real life than I wish to admit).

    We have no choice, we are going off this cliff but I hope that we can help shape this new adventure into a fun game. It does seem that the Lord of the Rings Online that I knew is now gone. The jury is still out on whether that is a good thing or bad.

    Thank you for your time.

    ~Tripdan lvl 85 Silverlode

  19. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Smartbean View Post
    ...
    My play-style enables me to do what I *like* to do in the game, I am able to tank (and manage threat in an ordinary fashion) and be able to do dps when needed or when I want. With these changes it feels like I am being forced to choose between tanking or dps or some sort of captain/burg/lm variation with those marks...I want the freedom to define my own play-style (which I have done over the course of the past 6,5 years) and do NOT like to be restricted to only a couple of play-style options! With the upcoming changes I feel that Turbine is 'forcing' me to adopt a different play-style and that is a real deal breaker.
    Fully agree that's what this is sounding like. Less choice is not more choice.

    Change for the sake of change != progress.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/1321300000004797c/01003/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

  20. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marakot View Post
    Fully agree that's what this is sounding like. Less choice is not more choice.

    Change for the sake of change != progress.
    If there is one thing most people from beta agree on, its that the guardian class is improved... How do you have less choice now? What are you talking about?
    If a LM, champ, mini player said that, ok...

    But a guard? You call switching for a few seconds to a 2hander, while traited blue, DPSing?! I call it tickling... Now on live you dont have a choice if you start in blue line... You tank from mob 1, to boss...
    With the changes, if you dont want to tank you just switch between specs on the fly.... If a boss or a pull is better suited for the warden in your group you just switch..Thats called having a choice....

    This mindless negativity is just annoying.
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  21. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by zagreb000 View Post
    If there is one thing most people from beta agree on, its that the guardian class is improved... How do you have less choice now? What are you talking about?
    If a LM, champ, mini player said that, ok...

    But a guard? You call switching for a few seconds to a 2hander, while traited blue, DPSing?! I call it tickling... Now on live you dont have a choice if you start in blue line... You tank from mob 1, to boss...
    With the changes, if you dont want to tank you just switch between specs on the fly.... If a boss or a pull is better suited for the warden in your group you just switch..Thats called having a choice....

    This mindless negativity is just annoying.
    I'm in the beta. I have a guardian. I do not feel it's improved. It's made stupid easy.. that is NOT an improvement.
    Chromite (Hunter) - Grumbletocks (Guardian) on Landroval, Appendage (Hunter) on Brandywine

  22. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marakot View Post
    Fully agree that's what this is sounding like. Less choice is not more choice.

    Change for the sake of change != progress.
    FYI, you are answering a thread with over a month old information. The info on the Guardian in HD beta is here:

    https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...mmary-Guardian

  23. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChromiteSwiftpaw View Post
    I'm in the beta. I have a guardian. I do not feel it's improved. It's made stupid easy.. that is NOT an improvement.
    Thank you for your constructive input.
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  24. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by zagreb000 View Post
    If there is one thing most people from beta agree on, its that the guardian class is improved... How do you have less choice now? What are you talking about?
    If a LM, champ, mini player said that, ok...

    But a guard? You call switching for a few seconds to a 2hander, while traited blue, DPSing?! I call it tickling... Now on live you dont have a choice if you start in blue line... You tank from mob 1, to boss...
    With the changes, if you dont want to tank you just switch between specs on the fly.... If a boss or a pull is better suited for the warden in your group you just switch..Thats called having a choice....

    This mindless negativity is just annoying.
    This might make sense if Aragorn had carried 3 different Andurils, or Frodo 3 different Stings. But with HD, gameplay just keeps getting further and further from LotR. And that makes me sad. About the only thing continuing to be worth it, is seeing landscape and characters as the storyline plays out. Beyond that? meh to the max.
    Estellost, loving husband of the wonderful Shinarra

  25. #100
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    100% agree with Chromite.

    If by improved you mean ridiculously OP in DPS tree... Then yes.

    However, it is insanely boring to play.
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