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  1. #1
    Sapience is offline Former Community Manager & Harbinger of Soon
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    Developer Diary : Guardian Class Changes in Helm’s Deep

    Hey all, Verizal here to talk to you about all the fun, new changes coming up with the Guardian. I was pretty pumped when I found out that I was going to have the opportunity to work on this class, given both my experiences in LOTRO, and my inclination towards heavier classes in other MMOs. For whatever reason, the idea of charging headlong into battle, covered in plate, and swinging a giant axe appeals to me much more than hanging out on the outskirts of the fight, plinking away at the enemy and hoping they don’t look my way (sorry Hunters). It was with this sort of mentality that I tried to approach this rather sizeable revamp. [Read more]

  2. #2
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    As many of you know, threat will be seeing some significant changes in the future
    For those of us who don't know, can you describe what is going on with threat handling in the future? I liked Lotro's unique handling of threat in a not entirely exposed to the player fashion. It is one of the things that makes me enjoy my warden so much, and that I was looking forward to with my guardian.

    it was decided that they were certainly going to need more of an active, survivability-based playstyle to compensate for the future ease of threat management.
    I don't want 'easy' threat management. I want threat management to be something I actively work on.

    Target marking sounds more Captainy than Guardian-like to be honest.
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  3. #3
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    All right... where is the threat dev diary ?

    Because it seems to be a bigger change than the guardian change...

    Help me understand how I will tank... as tanking is all about threat management.


    PS : Light damage.. meh. We aren't tactical classes thanks !

  4. #4
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    This all looks extremely positive, and its great to see some thought going into the guardian eventually, after being neglected for a while, so thank you Verizal

    Though I would like to echo Crell's call for an explanation as to how threat will now work, as if the guard has gone the way of other classes and had their skills reduced (referring to previous comments on class changes) I would like to know how we are going to hold our own as tanks in Helm's Deep with less skills.
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  5. #5
    I am confused by this statement:
    And they certainly need to keep their tank tree, so I’m gonna work with that as well.” The third tree, however, was the threat tree.
    I'm guessing from reading further this is just an editing mistake and that should be off-tank rather than threat maybe?

    Or am I reading this wrong?
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  6. #6
    What I really want to know is if the Keen Blade allows for a viable Sword/Board damage dealer? (Has shield skills been removed from keen blade again?)
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  7. #7
    [QUOTE} I'm guessing from reading further this is just an editing mistake and that should be off-tank rather than threat maybe?

    Or am I reading this wrong?[/QUOTE]

    I find this whole dev diary very concerning. There are currently two tanking lines for guardians - fighter of shadow concentrates on mitigations for when you are tanking one single boss who hits very hard. Defender of the Free concentrates on AOE threat for when you need to keep aggro on ten targets at once. One is for tanking a troll in Battle for Erebor, one is for tanking Flight to the Lonely Mountain.

    I see nothing in this dev diary that suggests Verizal even fully understood what they were revamping before they started making changes. Now we're only going to have one tanking line for both those scenarios? They seem to be reducing the guardian role as a tank, instead of enhancing it, and trying to convince us to join the burgs as debuffers instead. Really? That's not why I created a tank.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sigram View Post
    I am confused by this statement:


    I'm guessing from reading further this is just an editing mistake and that should be off-tank rather than threat maybe?

    Or am I reading this wrong?


    No, actually, you aren't reading a typo. The dev they put in charge of this Genuinely believed at the time of his work that our yellow line was our tanking line. He seemed unaware that for primary tanking blue is what guards trait, with yellow as the supporting extra to that, and as a 'survivability' line, alongside the true 'tanking' line. The dev in question may have been excited to work on the line, but from all I've read, he clearly had no real -Understanding- of how Guards work and what being a guard is, and is like. Especially if he talks about how currently tanking is all just 'passively waiting around for a response to pop'. That shows a criminal lack of understanding of the class and what playing it is currently like.

    In fact, while the diary talks about wanting to make tanking more involved and active... it then goes on to talk about basing the whole thing around building up a passive buff, and either keeping it, or expending it and then building it up again. That's ALL it talks about in the diary... are we then to believe that that's ALL there will be to tanking now? He's listed his reworking of our lines, sure, but threat itself hasn't been mentioned pretty much anywhere at all, except that he spoke there initially about how threat is being reworked, in a way that necessitates him, apparently, having the room to design and develop a WHOLE NEW, UNRELATED tree. Coupled with the lack of MENTION about threat, and all I can see is that he's probably planning to rip it out entirely, and/or convert threat into something that's handled passively and out of OUR hands.

    It certainly doesn't -READ- like Guard is being made more active and involved. It READS like it's being made LESS so... like you're going to be using more skills, and doing LESS overall, because the important stuff will be handled passively, out of your hands.

    I'm all for the camp that says show us a dev diary on threat, and quick.
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  9. #9
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    I like the target marking, shadow fighter buff line, this sounds like a great way to make up for the captain's becoming more focused (or weaker, depending on who you ask), especially if gear isn't swappable in combat with Helms. there's several current raids where an off-tank buff guard would be helpful in a game world where a captain can't do all things.

    Kudos for making guardian more interesting and supplementary to a re-created captain.
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  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Gardhik View Post
    All right... where is the threat dev diary ?

    Because it seems to be a bigger change than the guardian change...

    Help me understand how I will tank... as tanking is all about threat management.
    This. Seems like this diary was released out of the timeline we've been told has been carefully crafted.


    /beat_dead_horse
    give us some more useful info about all these changes. You've given us an accurate description of a single leaf, on 3 different trees. We know almost nothing about what this all means or what direction gameplay will be taking. You seem to take a swipe (pardon the guardian pun) at reactive skills, but then allude to them still being there. Are reactive skills being done away with, are they no longer the bread and butter of guardian gameplay? what is it?

    If the RK Fire tree remains, and becomes more fully viable, there are going to be a LOT of DoT based classes roaming middle earth in Helms Deep.

    I think the concept of Fighter of Shadow filling the long-lost void of OP tanking is a great move, well done on that part, Verizal.
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  11. #11
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    I'm a bit concerned with a few things..

    The "future ease of threat management." Not sure what exactly that will mean, but half the challenge of playing a tank for me has always been managing threat, and I have always really liked that. It sounds as if the main point of tanks will be handled almost automatically now?

    Secondly, the separation of 'tank' trees and 'threat' trees.

    So, honest question here.. Is threat being completely redefined with the release of HD?
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  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Arbornal View Post
    I'm a bit concerned with a few things..

    The "future ease of threat management." Not sure what exactly that will mean, but half the challenge of playing a tank for me has always been managing threat, and I have always really liked that. It sounds as if the main point of tanks will be handled almost automatically now?

    Secondly, the separation of 'tank' trees and 'threat' trees.

    So, honest question here.. Is threat being completely redefined with the release of HD?
    Managing threat was indeed my draw to playing group content as a tank.

    My guardian has been on hold really, as no one's needed him for anything for quite a while. If they go auto-pilot on threat management, I don't see a point for me to return to the class, unless the solo-dps tree is amazingly fun.
    Helm's Deep Devamp killed my long time toons. Currently bouncing around between post-HD newbie alts (a warden and champ) and other games.
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  13. #13

    Low-level Guard

    I'm just learning to play my Guard. In solo play, it's a lot like playing my Champ, with the addition of hitting them with my shield. In the little group play that I have done, it seems to be all about holding threat. So, how is threat changing? Tell me before I invest a lot of gameplay learning it as it is.

  14. #14

    Thumbs down

    Sorry but threat magagement was the only thing what distinguished good from bad tanks...

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arbornal View Post
    I'm a bit concerned with a few things..

    The "future ease of threat management." Not sure what exactly that will mean, but half the challenge of playing a tank for me has always been managing threat, and I have always really liked that. It sounds as if the main point of tanks will be handled almost automatically now?

    Secondly, the separation of 'tank' trees and 'threat' trees.

    So, honest question here.. Is threat being completely redefined with the release of HD?
    I agree, managing threat is what makes playing a guardian exciting. If indeed threat is redefined for release, it will be a big despoilment to me and many more I imagine.

  16. #16
    When Verizal referred to "As many of you may know..." he/she must have been referring to the other devs that are going to read the diary because clearly nobody here has heard anything about that. Wouldn't it be great to get some clarification on something so important?
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  17. #17
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    These changes are very worrying. First off, Threat management:
    ...for the future ease of threat management.
    I really shiver at this, because managing threat for me is a big part of what makes my Guardian a challenging class to play. Easing threat management does really not look in any way appealing to me. Further more I'm in total agreement with the quote of Enfiladed below (even though it's not my biggest problem/worry of this dev dairy):
    Quote Originally Posted by Enfiladed View Post
    My biggest problem with the dev diary is this: the idea of 'Threat Tree' and 'Tanking Tree'. Lets be very clear (and I intend no disrespect) THREAT and TANKING are inextricably linked together. You can't be a Tank class without threat, so having those as parallel ideas is just ridiculous. Blue line was NOT a 'threat' line it was an AoE tanking line (most of the skills dealt with threat, true, but that is what made an AoE tank a TANK) and Yellow was not a 'tank' line it was a single target survivability line. It really feels like this dev has completely misunderstood what makes a guard a guard. Talking about "...charging headlong into battle, covered in plate, and swinging a giant axe..." to me says champ, and not guard. I like charging headlong into battle with my giant SHIELD defending my friends while they swing giant axes at things.

    Mindless threat is just a deal breaker for me...snip...I mean do I just spam Guards Ward for my rotation now or what?
    Secondly, Play styles:
    Quote from The Keen Blade paragraph:
    I found myself left with a bunch of useful traits that did not really meld together into any singular play-style.
    Quote from The Defender of the Free paragraph:
    There were a lot of passive bonuses to give this line a solid ‘mitigation tank’ sort of feel, but nothing that really held the tree together or defined any sort of unique playstyle.
    Quote from The Fighter of Shadow paragraph:
    The playstyle was not distinct, and Guardian was left feeling like a watered-down version of both other trees combined.
    Emphasis are added by me. The big problem for me is that each Trait line is reflecting a different play-style, and whilst that in itself is not really different from the trait lines we have now, I have a play-style of my own. A play style that uses traits from all 3 trait lines (ie. 3 traits of Then Keen Blade, 2 traits of The Defender of the Free and 2 traits of The Fighter of Shadow). My play-style enables me to do what I *like* to do in the game, I am able to tank (and manage threat in an ordinary fashion) and be able to do dps when needed or when I want. With these changes it feels like I am being forced to choose between tanking or dps or some sort of captain/burg/lm variation with those marks...I want the freedom to define my own play-style (which I have done over the course of the past 6,5 years) and do NOT like to be restricted to only a couple of play-style options! With the upcoming changes I feel that Turbine is 'forcing' me to adopt a different play-style and that is a real deal breaker.
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smartbean View Post
    These changes are very worrying. First off, Threat management:

    I really shiver at this, because managing threat for me is a big part of what makes my Guardian a challenging class to play. Easing threat management does really not look in any way appealing to me. Further more I'm in total agreement with the quote of Enfiladed below (even though it's not my biggest problem/worry of this dev dairy):


    Secondly, Play styles:
    Quote from The Keen Blade paragraph:
    Quote from The Defender of the Free paragraph:
    Quote from The Fighter of Shadow paragraph:
    Emphasis are added by me. The big problem for me is that each Trait line is reflecting a different play-style, and whilst that in itself is not really different from the trait lines we have now, I have a play-style of my own. A play style that uses traits from all 3 trait lines (ie. 3 traits of Then Keen Blade, 2 traits of The Defender of the Free and 2 traits of The Fighter of Shadow). My play-style enables me to do what I *like* to do in the game, I am able to tank (and manage threat in an ordinary fashion) and be able to do dps when needed or when I want. With these changes it feels like I am being forced to choose between tanking or dps or some sort of captain/burg/lm variation with those marks...I want the freedom to define my own play-style (which I have done over the course of the past 6,5 years) and do NOT like to be restricted to only a couple of play-style options! With the upcoming changes I feel that Turbine is 'forcing' me to adopt a different play-style and that is a real deal breaker.
    In some classes some traits are only effective with the legendary you get in Moria. So until then these traits are relatively useless or you need one attribute more to get the legendary although you don't want THIS attribute. There are already instrictions, so that will hardly change I think...

    And also it's still possible to make hybrids. In the champion dev diary they mentioned even to encourage to hybridization:
    "One thing that was very important to us was to make sure that we constructed our trees in such a way that encouraged hybridization."

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Smartbean View Post
    ...
    My play-style enables me to do what I *like* to do in the game, I am able to tank (and manage threat in an ordinary fashion) and be able to do dps when needed or when I want. With these changes it feels like I am being forced to choose between tanking or dps or some sort of captain/burg/lm variation with those marks...I want the freedom to define my own play-style (which I have done over the course of the past 6,5 years) and do NOT like to be restricted to only a couple of play-style options! With the upcoming changes I feel that Turbine is 'forcing' me to adopt a different play-style and that is a real deal breaker.
    Fully agree that's what this is sounding like. Less choice is not more choice.

    Change for the sake of change != progress.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marakot View Post
    Fully agree that's what this is sounding like. Less choice is not more choice.

    Change for the sake of change != progress.
    If there is one thing most people from beta agree on, its that the guardian class is improved... How do you have less choice now? What are you talking about?
    If a LM, champ, mini player said that, ok...

    But a guard? You call switching for a few seconds to a 2hander, while traited blue, DPSing?! I call it tickling... Now on live you dont have a choice if you start in blue line... You tank from mob 1, to boss...
    With the changes, if you dont want to tank you just switch between specs on the fly.... If a boss or a pull is better suited for the warden in your group you just switch..Thats called having a choice....

    This mindless negativity is just annoying.
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by zagreb000 View Post
    If there is one thing most people from beta agree on, its that the guardian class is improved... How do you have less choice now? What are you talking about?
    If a LM, champ, mini player said that, ok...

    But a guard? You call switching for a few seconds to a 2hander, while traited blue, DPSing?! I call it tickling... Now on live you dont have a choice if you start in blue line... You tank from mob 1, to boss...
    With the changes, if you dont want to tank you just switch between specs on the fly.... If a boss or a pull is better suited for the warden in your group you just switch..Thats called having a choice....

    This mindless negativity is just annoying.
    I'm in the beta. I have a guardian. I do not feel it's improved. It's made stupid easy.. that is NOT an improvement.
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  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by zagreb000 View Post
    If there is one thing most people from beta agree on, its that the guardian class is improved... How do you have less choice now? What are you talking about?
    If a LM, champ, mini player said that, ok...

    But a guard? You call switching for a few seconds to a 2hander, while traited blue, DPSing?! I call it tickling... Now on live you dont have a choice if you start in blue line... You tank from mob 1, to boss...
    With the changes, if you dont want to tank you just switch between specs on the fly.... If a boss or a pull is better suited for the warden in your group you just switch..Thats called having a choice....

    This mindless negativity is just annoying.
    This might make sense if Aragorn had carried 3 different Andurils, or Frodo 3 different Stings. But with HD, gameplay just keeps getting further and further from LotR. And that makes me sad. About the only thing continuing to be worth it, is seeing landscape and characters as the storyline plays out. Beyond that? meh to the max.
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marakot View Post
    Fully agree that's what this is sounding like. Less choice is not more choice.

    Change for the sake of change != progress.
    FYI, you are answering a thread with over a month old information. The info on the Guardian in HD beta is here:

    https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...mmary-Guardian

  24. #24

    look at the big picture

    Quote Originally Posted by Sapience View Post
    Hey all, Verizal here to talk to you about all the fun, new changes coming up with the Guardian. I was pretty pumped when I found out that I was going to have the opportunity to work on this class, given both my experiences in LOTRO, and my inclination towards heavier classes in other MMOs. For whatever reason, the idea of charging headlong into battle, covered in plate, and swinging a giant axe appeals to me much more than hanging out on the outskirts of the fight, plinking away at the enemy and hoping they don’t look my way (sorry Hunters). It was with this sort of mentality that I tried to approach this rather sizeable revamp. [Read more]


    I play Blastard, on the Silverlode server. I've spent more 'played' time with the Guardian class than most, and have made some very viable suggestions
    in the past. One thing I completely disagree with is the fact that we should spend our ENTIRE time in combat fighting for aggro. We should have to do a few things to establish it in the begining, sure, but when it comes down to it, guards should have more threat anyone on the block hands down, head and shoulders above everyone else (ye though I walk through the valley...etc.)! I like being heavily armored and enjoying a good FIGHT, but spending the entire time establishing aggro gets boring fast. I'm not interested in med. armored wardens/ or non-shielded crunchy champs, so those 'suggestions' will be ignored. Once we establish aggro NO ONE should be able to pull it away...period! When I tried HD beta (my first beta since I started 6yrs ago)-- I found that I spent 50-60% of my points on the first tree, then split the rest between the last two trees...no one could touch my numbers. Pulling threat is important...for a while...but there are OTHER things I'd like to do during my fight as well (like kick ###!). Some of you are missing the big picture down there...(I do like the
    cosmetic shield suggestion--I've wanted to actually upload my OWN LOGO to my shield actually)...In addition to pulling the the threat, we need to be able
    take a royal pounding like NO one else (which I do better than most as well--no bragging intended)...ask around if your on the silverlode server...I am VERY
    shield oriented, and I'd like to do stuff with it during my fights (like a chop to the THROAT, or a face smash), but not if I'm constantly going "yoohoo, I'm over here!"...bah....once we have the aggro, thats it...move on to other things. BE a KNIGHT (that's what we are essentially--the one everyone runs to and hides behind)! Oh sorry I didn't see you floundering there...I had to keep this idiot's attention!
    I will say that I'm glad you didn't hose my 4k+ shield damage-and the extra bleeds, mits, self-heals aren't too shabby either...I really enjoy being a THREAT TO THE MASSES, but I also enjoy doing -OTHER- things as well during my fights!

    Think on these things...(this is also the first time in 6yrs I've felt motivated to share my concerns)

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    Last edited by Blastard; Nov 17 2013 at 12:47 PM.

  25. #25

    Thumbs down Apologies

    I have not read the entire thread but.... I am the first and only tank that completed all 3 erebor raids t2 on my server when 85 was cap so Id say Im a pretty good guard. The guardian class is broke. Blue line is terribly useless for tanking more than 2 mobs. You need to bring back littany of defiance as a threat generator, whirling retaliation as threat generator , vexing blow(which is useless now) and shield taunt add more threat passively ( sorry to be rude) and yes im telling not asking. Make them deep in blue line.

    It seems we are a poormans champ as we need dps to tank and shields are useless!!

    I have a capped champ and guard both fully geared. Tanking on them is scarily similar. They have become the same class. The parry/block response cancelling each other i believe is a known issue. We are the only class (and perhaps wardens) that CANNOT stack our main stat for our main role. I have gotten all pieces with 217 vitality and it has made tanking more difficult!!!!

    Come on really?? FIX THIS CLASS

 

 
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