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  1. #1
    Sapience is offline Former Community Manager & Harbinger of Soon
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    Developer Diary : Guardian Class Changes in Helm’s Deep

    Hey all, Verizal here to talk to you about all the fun, new changes coming up with the Guardian. I was pretty pumped when I found out that I was going to have the opportunity to work on this class, given both my experiences in LOTRO, and my inclination towards heavier classes in other MMOs. For whatever reason, the idea of charging headlong into battle, covered in plate, and swinging a giant axe appeals to me much more than hanging out on the outskirts of the fight, plinking away at the enemy and hoping they don’t look my way (sorry Hunters). It was with this sort of mentality that I tried to approach this rather sizeable revamp. [Read more]

  2. #2
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    As many of you know, threat will be seeing some significant changes in the future
    For those of us who don't know, can you describe what is going on with threat handling in the future? I liked Lotro's unique handling of threat in a not entirely exposed to the player fashion. It is one of the things that makes me enjoy my warden so much, and that I was looking forward to with my guardian.

    it was decided that they were certainly going to need more of an active, survivability-based playstyle to compensate for the future ease of threat management.
    I don't want 'easy' threat management. I want threat management to be something I actively work on.

    Target marking sounds more Captainy than Guardian-like to be honest.
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  3. #3
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    All right... where is the threat dev diary ?

    Because it seems to be a bigger change than the guardian change...

    Help me understand how I will tank... as tanking is all about threat management.


    PS : Light damage.. meh. We aren't tactical classes thanks !

  4. #4
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    This all looks extremely positive, and its great to see some thought going into the guardian eventually, after being neglected for a while, so thank you Verizal

    Though I would like to echo Crell's call for an explanation as to how threat will now work, as if the guard has gone the way of other classes and had their skills reduced (referring to previous comments on class changes) I would like to know how we are going to hold our own as tanks in Helm's Deep with less skills.
    - Taravan, R12 Captain - Tirian, Tanking Guardian - Telperon, Completionist LM -
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  5. #5
    I am confused by this statement:
    And they certainly need to keep their tank tree, so I’m gonna work with that as well.” The third tree, however, was the threat tree.
    I'm guessing from reading further this is just an editing mistake and that should be off-tank rather than threat maybe?

    Or am I reading this wrong?
    Helm's Deep Devamp killed my long time toons. Currently bouncing around between post-HD newbie alts (a warden and champ) and other games.
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  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Gardhik View Post
    All right... where is the threat dev diary ?

    Because it seems to be a bigger change than the guardian change...

    Help me understand how I will tank... as tanking is all about threat management.
    This. Seems like this diary was released out of the timeline we've been told has been carefully crafted.


    /beat_dead_horse
    give us some more useful info about all these changes. You've given us an accurate description of a single leaf, on 3 different trees. We know almost nothing about what this all means or what direction gameplay will be taking. You seem to take a swipe (pardon the guardian pun) at reactive skills, but then allude to them still being there. Are reactive skills being done away with, are they no longer the bread and butter of guardian gameplay? what is it?

    If the RK Fire tree remains, and becomes more fully viable, there are going to be a LOT of DoT based classes roaming middle earth in Helms Deep.

    I think the concept of Fighter of Shadow filling the long-lost void of OP tanking is a great move, well done on that part, Verizal.
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  7. #7
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    I'm a bit concerned with a few things..

    The "future ease of threat management." Not sure what exactly that will mean, but half the challenge of playing a tank for me has always been managing threat, and I have always really liked that. It sounds as if the main point of tanks will be handled almost automatically now?

    Secondly, the separation of 'tank' trees and 'threat' trees.

    So, honest question here.. Is threat being completely redefined with the release of HD?
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  8. #8
    What I really want to know is if the Keen Blade allows for a viable Sword/Board damage dealer? (Has shield skills been removed from keen blade again?)
    Helm's Deep Devamp killed my long time toons. Currently bouncing around between post-HD newbie alts (a warden and champ) and other games.
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Arbornal View Post
    I'm a bit concerned with a few things..

    The "future ease of threat management." Not sure what exactly that will mean, but half the challenge of playing a tank for me has always been managing threat, and I have always really liked that. It sounds as if the main point of tanks will be handled almost automatically now?

    Secondly, the separation of 'tank' trees and 'threat' trees.

    So, honest question here.. Is threat being completely redefined with the release of HD?
    Managing threat was indeed my draw to playing group content as a tank.

    My guardian has been on hold really, as no one's needed him for anything for quite a while. If they go auto-pilot on threat management, I don't see a point for me to return to the class, unless the solo-dps tree is amazingly fun.
    Helm's Deep Devamp killed my long time toons. Currently bouncing around between post-HD newbie alts (a warden and champ) and other games.
    Baruk Khazâd! Khazâd ai-mênu!
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  10. #10

    Low-level Guard

    I'm just learning to play my Guard. In solo play, it's a lot like playing my Champ, with the addition of hitting them with my shield. In the little group play that I have done, it seems to be all about holding threat. So, how is threat changing? Tell me before I invest a lot of gameplay learning it as it is.

  11. #11

    Thumbs down

    Sorry but threat magagement was the only thing what distinguished good from bad tanks...

  12. #12
    "Alright give that reaver a shield! Give it some threat mechanics... and call it....the 'guardian' class." JK.

    These diaries are nice and all but I want to see this stuff in action!

  13. #13
    With all the new effects from classes (especially if a single guard is going to be able to stack up to 10 bleed effects, in addition to whatever else) has there been any attention paid to performance?

    When our kin raids we all find we have to use the effect filters so that game performance does not tank (a boss might have several dozen active effects at any given time today). It would be nice to see some work done to resolve this issue, especially since knowing what effects other have applied is very useful to see at a glance. I can only imagine what might happen if several KB guards were brought to a raid now...
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  14. #14
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    My take away from this:

    Guardians are no longer Ghetto Champs, we are now Ghetto Captains but it doesn't matter anyway because tanking is now EZ-Mode?

    RAGE AND FURY!

    The Grand Royal Empress of Hobbit Guardians is not amused!

    We demand clarification on the changes to threat! We also demand tea and crumpets!
    ...And also cakes

    And a puppy.

    BRING US ANOTHER PUPPY OR SUFFER THE CONSEQUENCES THINE wicked Devs of Turbine! <(><)>


    But in all seriousness. I am pleased with what seems to be happening with Keen Blade. I think it is long overdue that Guardians get a DPS build that is unique to our skill set and is also a viable DPS option against other classes. But I am not convinced on the FoS and DotF lines. Tanking, at least to my mind has always been a balance of threat generation AND survivability. The two are, in fact, mutually exclusive. That being said, it looks promising but I need to know more about what is going on with threat. I would prefer threat management not be viewed as something easy. If it's easy then there is no challenge, if there is no challenge then what is the point of having a game? If I want a recreational activity that requires minimal effort and presents no challenge, I'll take up stamp collecting. In the mean time, please provide us with more feedback on what changes are happening with threat and how they will effect grouping across the board some time in the near future which I am sure you will do in your own good time regardless of our demands.

    Afterthoughts:

    Can we please get a cosmetic shield slot?

    Can we please stow shields on our backs when not in combat? The new back item in the preorder package shouts out the injustice of not having this already! We already throw it on our backs when we use our bow/crossbow. Why not make it a full mechanic while we are not in combat? Do you have any idea how heavy these shields are? Do you have any idea how tired our arms get? How do you expect us to even raise them up after a long march? This is clearly abuse and the Hobbit Guardian Enthusiasts are not amused! We demand justice!

    ...and also puppies

    ...and cakes

    ...and tea and crumpets.


    Much love!
    [SIZE=3][FONT=Book Antiqua][COLOR=Cyan]"If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world."[/COLOR]
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  15. #15
    Before, if everyone will pardon the generalizations(and my ignoring of captain/champ tanks), we had 2 tank classes. Warden essentially had passive threat since they didn't have to really work at it, but had a very active role in keeping their self-buffs and heals going to keep them alive and tanking. Guards had very passive survival(pretty much guardian's ward every 20s and hid pledge when things got nasty), but more active threat generation.

    If you've made threat management essentially a no-brainer(this does not make me happy), and have left our survival largely passive, then where is the interesting game play? Am I an ultra-survivable semi-dps class? Am I going to be spamming my damage skills to hold aggro and stay awake? I'm happy that guardians are getting a revamp, we desperately needed some love and polish, but the fun of this class, the skill that gave lie to its otherwise simplistic gameplay, was learning how and when to generate more threat than the neglected guardian was seemingly capable of.

    I'm going to go elitist jerk for a minute, so have the kiddies leave the room. Other roles have their moments for epeen. Big numbers, awesome crits, clutch bubbles or massive burst heals or whatever. What do I get? The majority of guardians on any server I've seen have been terrible. Not because the class is hard or broken, but because they were bad. But I could step into a raid, play my class superbly, and shine. The people of Riddermark may well think I'm an arrogant jerk, but I made my mark through superb tanking. Perhaps it is a little thing for most, but that little shine of pride in knowing that I'm good, that my play skill makes a difference to the outcome of a raid, it matters to me. If I can tank on auto-pilot, why would I tank?

  16. #16
    Marking - sounds exactly like what the captains do - mark this and mark that - adding with 2hander boost on shadow line, thats my captain i see there, not my guardian. Please tell m i am wrong? EDIT. Rereading Captain diary, i see no mention of any markd there, interestin thought?

    Like others , i m also wondering about the "response" skills and their distribution in the threes.

    Lastly, will the "sword&board" work in all trees, or should i from now invest in both 1h and 2h LI, to be able to utilize all trees?

    Looking for clarifications...

    PS. Keen blade with bleed mechanism seems nice. it is sword &board, right?
    Last edited by Hatter_of_Bree; Sep 17 2013 at 03:59 PM.
    .
    Thank you, Turbine, for listening and giving us an opt-out of FE! Good work!

  17. #17
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    I like the target marking, shadow fighter buff line, this sounds like a great way to make up for the captain's becoming more focused (or weaker, depending on who you ask), especially if gear isn't swappable in combat with Helms. there's several current raids where an off-tank buff guard would be helpful in a game world where a captain can't do all things.

    Kudos for making guardian more interesting and supplementary to a re-created captain.
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by clappi View Post
    With all the new effects from classes (especially if a single guard is going to be able to stack up to 10 bleed effects, in addition to whatever else) has there been any attention paid to performance?

    When our kin raids we all find we have to use the effect filters so that game performance does not tank (a boss might have several dozen active effects at any given time today). It would be nice to see some work done to resolve this issue, especially since knowing what effects other have applied is very useful to see at a glance. I can only imagine what might happen if several KB guards were brought to a raid now...
    I'd imagine it would just be one bleed icon (per character) which stands for all 10 bleeds.
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  19. #19
    As with the Keen Blade line, I did not want tanks to simply be sitting around as they waited for their responses to pop and, given the threat revamp, it was decided that they were certainly going to need more of an active, survivability-based playstyle to compensate for the future ease of threat management.
    Hmmm... ease of threat management. I have no idea what this means.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheery View Post
    I'm just learning to play my Guard. In solo play, it's a lot like playing my Champ, with the addition of hitting them with my shield. In the little group play that I have done, it seems to be all about holding threat. So, how is threat changing? Tell me before I invest a lot of gameplay learning it as it is.
    Why would you try and learn any class right now? They are all changing in less than two months. I'm not saying don't play, just saying that no matter what you do you're going to have to relearn a lot about any class. No one knows how this is going to pan out so just try and enjoy yourself.

  21. #21
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    The Fighter of Shadow ...mark targets, which will provide future attacks with the ability to deal additional light damage on hit...

    Guardians will deal tactical dammage when using that tree? I have to see how this work out. Either way im glad this change is only on that line that is used more like to solo shielded while "The Keen Blade" will keep beeing the 2-hand solo dps tree/line & "The Defender of the Free" will keep beeing the tanking agro management tree/line.
    Last edited by YamydeAragon; Sep 17 2013 at 04:24 PM.

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  22. #22
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    What happened to Erika "DEViled_Egg" Ng?


    She posted in the Guardian forum on Jan 27th, 2013

    https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...-Hey-Everybody!

    Saying she was our new dev and was never seen in the thread again. Now we have yet another new one?
    Chromite/Grumbletocks/Grumbletunes/Schrade on Landroval, Chromite on Arkenstone, Appendage on Brandywine

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by bastiat1 View Post
    That's the point. That's the point of all the class changes. By severely restricting what each class can do you limit the opportunties for some people to play better/worse than others. All this e-peening goes out the door and we can be all perfectly equal. It's completely consistent with the loot changes over the last year- you don't need skill to beat any instance- you just need enough time to grind out a 0.5% drop chance.

    How about the "Big Battles" substitute for the instance cluster? Big Battles can't be lost. The Devs have said that the outcome is certain. All that matters is how big your victory is or how small your loss is. Everyone gets a trophy, it's just the size of the trophy in question. It's raiding with no wipes.

    It's no coincidence that "The Great Dumbing Down of LoTRO" started when the Zynga guys were brought on. Players need to understand that come Helms Deep this is a totally different game. The metemorphosis will be complete. Your character name will be the same. You will still get to talk to Gandalf from time to time. You can still group in GLFF chat. But the rest of the game you loved is soon dead. Most of you will be better off watching the movies.
    Too true... +virtualreps

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by ChromiteSwiftpaw View Post
    What happened to Erika "DEViled_Egg" Ng?


    She posted in the Guardian forum on Jan 27th, 2013

    https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...-Hey-Everybody!

    Saying she was our new dev and was never seen in the thread again. Now we have yet another new one?
    AND this is the first we hear from that Dev. Only the Player Council Focus Group matters now, they don't want or need input from the rest of the plebes.

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Gardhik View Post
    Too true... +virtualreps
    It looks like you are quoting a post that was deleted. What was the violation?
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