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  1. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Andala_Kanthos View Post
    Arguments like "but everyone has a will to chose to do any instance they want, they do not have to do Sambrog" is not a valid argument
    I love this part, just because you say its not a valid argument doesn't mean its true. So there are no locks, plenty of choice but everyone does sammy and its not good enough for you, you want people to run what you want. Well run your own choice then, like enginekid says the problem is with you, and there is no exploit so stop being so dramatic.

  2. #27
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    sob sob
    what happened to: yes. let's play this and this instance because noone hardly ever does it and it's long and we may die, but let's just do it! wahey

    sambrog is like lol.
    even if it gives rewards or whatever, how do people not get bored with doing some #### over and over and over (same with farm, slayer deeds-
    takes ages to do slayer deeds cause how does this repetitiveness unwind and relax)
    each to own i suppose
    but the each to sambrog is majority

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andala_Kanthos View Post
    Hello. To my experience the barrow downs instance with Sambrog is being overly farmed. I see lff messages to Sambrog all over the place. It is ridiculous because it inhibits people from doing a more varied distribution of instances. This is due to unbalanced loot tables versus accessability or difficulty or time requirement to do the instance, I don't know the exact factor. I am sure people could fill in the details what particular factors make it stand out as a prime "farming object".
    There is an absolutely obvious reason why it is being run so often - rewards/risk/time. It also doesn't take rocket science to successfully run Sambrog. So, people gravitate toward it.

    Want proof? Ask people why Thadur and The Maze parts of Great Barrow aren't run very often.



    This type of behaviour has to stop. Arguments like "but everyone has a will to chose to do any instance they want, they do not have to do Sambrog" is not a valid argument because: The fact stands that it is inhibiting variety (see above) making the other, perhaps more interesting instances neglected and wasted. In order to run a less frequently run instance you are in need of a focused group, specialized in other purposes than those fullfilled by the Sambrog instance. Which can be hard for the people in smaller kins or those whithout kins or those who find it fun to run pickup groups.
    I like how you treat the most common sense response to your assertions that "Sambrog is being exploited" as being invalid. Problem is you want to ignore simple human nature. We like getting the most reward for the least amount of effort when we can do so.

    FYI... you might want to stow your attitude if you want people to consider any valid points you might have.


    I am going to generalize here, beyond the Sambrog instance, because any instance can take it place given the right properties. I believe it is a design fault that is important to consider, albeit it is not easy to fix given that people are clever in finding the most optimal way of receiving rewards. In any case, tweaks should be done more frequently or faster to those instances that seem to get overly a lot of attention so other instances get to see more light.

    I hope to see more varied LFF messages in the future due to a more balanced set of instances. Perhaps with HD
    Again, you are completely missing the part that human nature plays in this. You just told us that any other instance can take Sambrog's place... yet, you seem to completely ignore your own words!

    So, again, to be blunt, I would strongly consider stowing your attitude. Then, come back and try again from an objective point of view that isn't slanted by your own biases.
    Dagranhad - Burglar | Aldgarea - Loremaster | Barathrothir - Hunter | Golladhar - Captain

  4. #29
    You are seriously missing my point; human nature is one thing; game layout is another. Human nature makes you get your loot the eez way yes no problem, it is irrelevant. I look at ways (if there are any, and I certainly believe so) to make for a more diversified pool of instances being run THROUGH GAME SYSTEMS, not forcing anyong to do any paritcular instance. I find it incredibly boring that one instance is being overly farmed due to the fact that it locks people away from doing other instances, by their own will of course. How about suggesting ideas that promote a more varied set of instances being run? If you think it is fine as it is, that is your opinion, not mine.
    Last edited by Andala_Kanthos; Sep 17 2013 at 04:52 PM.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andala_Kanthos View Post
    How about suggesting ideas that promote a more varied set of instances being run?
    who promotes it?
    how

  6. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Sleepwing View Post
    who promotes it?
    how
    Not who, but what

  7. #32
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    and that is? ;d

  8. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Sleepwing View Post
    and that is? ;d
    EPIC IDEAS XD

    Maybe not soo good ones but they perchance let you know what I mean:

    * Locks on instances (not very good/creative)- making people "forced to run another instance". Maybe locks combined with something else?

    * Make loot tables flexible, increasing/decreasing chances of your most wanted epic!! loot to drop (as someone in this thread suggested previously). This could be interesting but I really think this should be implemented with caution.

    * Require you to collect barter items from different instances that combined grants you a good item on handin (also suggested in this thread). I like this one.

    * Make s single fast instance not drop super epic loot. A compromise for those who have limited play time would be that those run 2-3 "fast instances" to collect barter item in order to get what they want (see above).

    * <-------

  9. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Andala_Kanthos View Post
    EPIC IDEAS XD

    Maybe not soo good ones but they perchance let you know what I mean:

    * Locks on instances (not very good/creative)- making people "forced to run another instance". Maybe locks combined with something else?

    * Make loot tables flexible, increasing/decreasing chances of your most wanted epic!! loot to drop (as someone in this thread suggested previously). This could be interesting but I really think this should be implemented with caution.

    * Require you to collect barter items from different instances that combined grants you a good item on handin (also suggested in this thread). I like this one.

    * Make s single fast instance not drop super epic loot. A compromise for those who have limited play time would be that those run 2-3 "fast instances" to collect barter item in order to get what they want (see above).

    * <-------
    And then people will complain about those loot rules. WE have had 3 of the 4 at least and they were whined about at the time as well. Just have to get used to the idea that no matter what is done someone some where will complain about it like its the end of the world as we know it.

    But I feel fine...
    .

    "Live and Let Die"

  10. #35
    How about some sort of scaling loot table that everyone could set up before starting an instance? Each item on the loot table would be worth some points, and the total number of points would change according to the difficulty of the instance. And the more points you "invest" into an item, the more likely it would drop. Maybe even adding seals/meds/marks and gold to the list, so if you need more money or seals you can drop the odds of items to get more of what you need.

    So let's say, if you scale everything else to 0 and put all the points in a certain gold item, you would get a 1/100 chance of getting it from running Sambrog, while maybe get a 3% chance from Maze. People could mix and match the loot they want from the instances, but running easier content would yield less chance of getting a certain item.

  11. #36
    Or do what WoW did back in WotLK (now sure how they have it now, don't play anymore) - first run of any given instance gives "high-tier" tokens (think seals) that can be bartered for top-tier gear. Any successive run yields only "low-tier" tokens that can be bartered for lower-quality gear. To maximize your seal gain you'd need to run as many different instances per day as possible, while completing some daily quests in them for additional rewards.. Simple as that, although many would disagree I guess.
    I'm a Warden. I AM a small fellowship.

  12. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Redstar View Post
    Turbine time gated instances at one time. If I remember right, they reset either once or twice weekly. Perhaps this concept should be re-visited.
    Something I have already strongly endorsed is that you should get rewards for challenge completion of any instance only once per day.
    105s: Aedfrith (HN), Aldnoth (CP), Brai (RK), Hrolfdan (MN), Aeldfryd (WD), Morriarty (CH), Aednoth (LM), Mishhar (BR), Hraldan (GR), Rummbold (BG). Tinies - Rumbelina (MN), Aenghus (CP)
    Rangers of Eriador (officer), ex-Snowbourn now Laurelin - A Noob for All Seasons

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andala_Kanthos View Post
    How about suggesting ideas that promote a more varied set of instances being run?
    How about offering different gear for running different instances?
    Oh, wait...
    [CENTER][IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v341/tindragon/Base.png[/IMG]
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  14. #39
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    Used to play: 85 Champ / Captain / Runekeeper / Guardian, Guild Master of everything but cooking.
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  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by TinDragon View Post
    How about offering different gear for running different instances?
    Oh, wait...
    Many are grinding for currency (seals, etc). For those, Sambrog/School/Lib seem like the fastest way to the cheese. And for rare gear, that doesn't encourage variety. If you want item X, many repeatedly grind the easiest instance that drops it. And that takes an unknowable number of runs for a gold, but generally in the hundreds...

  16. #41
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    Welcome to the new lotro:

    Complete a raid on t2 to get the locks for the gear you want, then faceroll the easiest most basic instance over and over to get your seals.

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andala_Kanthos View Post

    This type of behaviour has to stop. Arguments like "but everyone has a will to chose to do any instance they want, they do not have to do Sambrog" is not a valid
    I think I likely agree at a very high level... but your "arguments" are not conducive to discussion.

    First. Its not an exploit. Not even a little.

    Second. It doesn't have to stop, especially if a solution is made.

    Third, you cant dictate the flow of discussion or how its handled in an open forum. The invalid argument you ruled out... is a perfectly valid argument.

    With that out of the way, I have long proposed a single loot pool for all properly sized instances. I.E. a 3 man loot pool, a 6 man loot pool, a raid loot pool, etc. This suggestion was in an effort to let people pick the instance they want based on fun factor rather than speed/rewards. However, we will never be able to convince instance farmers to stop doing what they perceive to be the "best" instance in terms of speed. I like all of the instances. I wish folks would spread out more. I'm not interested in FORCING people to certain instances. But, I would like to see the same reward structure in place for each one. I completed 6 - 8 six man instances over the weekend. All tier 2 challenge successes. This comprised of 3 different Fornost wings, glinghant, maze, sambrog, and OE. My rewards were 2 pieces of purple gear that are significantly worse than multiple pieces of gear (for the same gear slot) that can be obtained simply from solo questing. So, before I continue to worry about what instance people are running... of even greater importance to me, is why the loot tables in the game are so extraordinarily backwards to begin with.

    Assuming they manage to sort out the loot tables... My solution is to re-instate the Moria coin system. Every successful run grants coins for that type of run (I would go with what I mentioned above. Create gear sets based on solo, 3 man, 6 man, and raid) Solo gear would have non-combat set bonuses such as +% speed, +% gold from mobs, -% CD on ports, etc. Gear coins drop from any of the instances that fit that gear type. You should be able to obtain a piece of gear every 2 to 3 runs. I also think Radiance needs another look. It served a good purpose on setting the bar for instance difficulty compared to gear requirements. It greatly helped raid leaders that were interested in helping non-raiders to raid. This could be slightly utilized if people were expected to have the 3-man armor before doing 6 mans, and 6 man armor before doing raids. Aside from being unpopular, those 2 systems simply worked. Gear was easy to obtain and requirements were clear and easy to communicate. The "answer" to all the whining over radiance and gear coins is a convoluted hodgepodge of instance and landscape farming.

    But i'll restate an earlier point. Arguably, the best jewerly in the game drops in solo landscape. Have you not seen the farming for that? Despite all the claims that people make over play-styles and preferences, a great number of people will simply go to where the loot is. Spreading out instance loot is a good start, but is not the sole issue.

  18. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by hucklebarry View Post
    Third, you cant dictate the flow of discussion or how its handled in an open forum. The invalid argument you ruled out... is a perfectly valid argument.
    Edit: I rephrased that sentence in my original post

    I agree with this, my mistake. Thanks for your input, I learn something every day.

    Interesting ideas! I defenitely agree the Radiance system brought more depth in an interesting way. I think the Moria instances were the most well thought out set of instances yet created in-game before they raised the level cap beyond Moria which kind of killed the "feel" of those instances.
    Last edited by Andala_Kanthos; Sep 18 2013 at 03:55 PM.

  19. #44
    I'd be inclined to run different instances to obtain the gold items if I had a reasonable chance of getting them within 30 runs. This is the first expansion that I haven't geared out 1 toon completely. It's stupid to run the longer instances with a 0.1% chance to get the item you're looking for.

    Throw in horselord recipes and not being able to have a good spot to farm them just to have a CHANCE to crit on it. I've only ever had ONE horselord recipe drop for me since RoR. That is pathetic. There is a reason why people farm sammy...get the seals to barter for first ages and t1 erebor armor and call it quits. There isn't a point to run anything else in terms of character progression.

  20. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by DelgonTheWise View Post
    I personally think people would burn out less and enjoy the game more if the instance loot were better balanced, to encourage more variety in the content folks see. I don't think running sambrog/lib/school repeatedly is in any way wrong or evil, but as a matter of game design I do think that such grinding of very few instances shouldn't be the absolute best way to get game rewards or currency. I'd actually rather see the "harder" content get better rewards to compensate for higher risk/time/etc. The problem with sambrog/school/lib isn't the reward per se. It is the total equation. It is the same issue that had people running GS always instead of FG or Forges, or SH instead of WP. Having more balanced rewards, or rewards for finishing all instances in a cluster within some time period, or steadily growing rewards for hitting the less frequented instances etc would work towards that. I'd not bring back locks though, they were rather a mess and somehow apparently caused issues with the scaling (I think some dev said such).

    Ya, the scaling issue was they couldn't set a level AND locks together, so capped players could have unlocked the final instance playing it at a ridiculously easy level and farm the final.
    Some men can't be bought, bullied or reasoned with. Some just like to watch the world burn.

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  21. #46
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    LOTRO isn't about fun, it's about feeding our addiction. Stop whining and start grinding.
    Work like no one is watching, dance like you don't need the money...

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by DelgonTheWise View Post
    for rare gear, that doesn't encourage variety. If you want item X, many repeatedly grind the easiest instance that drops it.
    Your post contradicts itself. You state if you want rare gear you have to do various different instances, but then you make a contradictory statement that this is not variety...

    Those instance clusters are all different, so yes it does encourage variety. If you want a Fornost Champion Axe then you are not only "encouraged" to play Fornost, you MUST play Fornost.

    Just as a quick example of the "various (variety of)" different instance clusters one MUST play to obtain the EIGHT DIFFERENT gold items that exist for each of the nine classes:


    1. Dol Guldur instances
    2. Erebor 3mans
    3. Erebor raids, 6man
    4. Great Barrows 6mans
    5. Fornost 6mans
    6. Annuminas 6mans
    7. In Their Absence instances
    8. School & Library 3mans


    As you can clearly and plainly see, Turbine has provided incentives that encourage all players to diversify their play.

    Please end the charade about their being no encouraged variety...


    ** Notice that the above does not state to get all your class items try the following content:


    1. Great Barrows 6mans
    2. Great Barrows 6mans
    3. Great Barrows 6mans
    4. Great Barrows 6mans
    5. Great Barrows 6mans
    6. Great Barrows 6mans
    7. Great Barrows 6mans
    8. Great Barrows 6mans

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by enginekid88 View Post
    Your post contradicts itself. You state if you want rare gear you have to do various different instances, but then you make a contradictory statement that this is not variety...

    As you can clearly and plainly see, Turbine has provided incentives that encourage all players to diversify their play.

    Please end the charade about their being no encouraged variety...
    If the class golds dropped more regularly or could be worked towards in some way, I'd agree with you. But I don't believe that the current very low drop rate of the golds encourages variety, at least to my way of thinking. I'd guess the vast majority of those grinding sambrog/school/lib are looking for seals, to get first ages that they can work towards with a knowable amount of effort. You can't work "towards" golds, in that you can (and some have) run individual instances many hundreds of times without even getting one. I've never gotten one myself, despite MANY runs in SH trying to get Capt shield. So I gave up the effort. I'm currently not working towards anything, which is a bit of a problem actually in terms of game engagement.

    If you really think that they are SUCCESSFULLY encouraging variety, at least on Meneldor where I play, why is such a huge proportion of glff LFG posts to do with starting up Sambrog runs????

  24. #49
    Um...

    We don't need less incentive to run any particular content, what we need is MORE incentive to run MORE content.

    What if Turbine left everything as-is (I.E. no locks), but awarded some amount of Seals/Meds/Marks to any player who completes every instance in a cluster per 'lock period' (so between Thursday and Thursday)?

    Not only would this reward players who utilize more/all of Turbine's content (making these instances not a waste of Dev time and money), but it would draw more players into purchasing content/clusters that they did not/do not already own, in order to try to earn the weekly 'completion reward' or whatever.

    Ya think?

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ithrien View Post
    What if Turbine left everything as-is (I.E. no locks), but awarded some amount of Seals/Meds/Marks to any player who completes every instance in a cluster per 'lock period' (so between Thursday and Thursday)?
    Same problem basically, just instead of easiest/fastest instance you get easiest/fastest cluster, so clusters with few and easy instances (Annuminas, GB) will be farmed over clusters that include raids and complex instances (ITA, DG). They have to rebalance the rewards so 1 hour of Sammy farming isn't 2-4 times more rewarding than doing both ITA 6-mans once (which requires about the same time, with a real chance of failing). Ideally by making the rewards dynamic, so farming the same thing over and over is made less rewarding by the system.
    Used to play: 85 Champ / Captain / Runekeeper / Guardian, Guild Master of everything but cooking.
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