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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by DelgonTheWise View Post
    If the class golds dropped more regularly or could be worked towards in some way, I'd agree with you. But I don't believe that the current very low drop rate of the golds encourages variety, at least to my way of thinking. I'd guess the vast majority of those grinding sambrog/school/lib are looking for seals, to get first ages that they can work towards with a knowable amount of effort. You can't work "towards" golds, in that you can (and some have) run individual instances many hundreds of times without even getting one. I've never gotten one myself, despite MANY runs in SH trying to get Capt shield. So I gave up the effort. I'm currently not working towards anything, which is a bit of a problem actually in terms of game engagement.

    If you really think that they are SUCCESSFULLY encouraging variety, at least on Meneldor where I play, why is such a huge proportion of glff LFG posts to do with starting up Sambrog runs????
    My warden got his Annuminus Jacket on first run tonight doing Haudh Valandil.

    For the last 6 hours i ran many characters through tons of different clusters with random groups all from glff. Clearly people are running lots of variety.

  2. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by enginekid88 View Post
    My warden got his Annuminus Jacket on first run tonight doing Haudh Valandil.

    For the last 6 hours i ran many characters through tons of different clusters with random groups all from glff. Clearly people are running lots of variety.
    Yeah there is variety but not enough. You can still get an unusual instance going if you are super determined or lucky. Maybe if there were more people like you who want to do tons of different clusters we'd see more varied LFF messages. Given that you have run a varied set of instances where no particular instance has not been run A LOT more than any other in your total amount of runs done across all instances.
    Last edited by Andala_Kanthos; Sep 19 2013 at 11:46 AM.

  3. #53
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    I could see re-introducing a daily limit for the "challenge" rewards, specifically the extra rewards that drop from the extra chest. However...

    > If this were to be done, then each person should be guaranteed some of the "incomparable" loot that drops from that chest. That "teal" bracelet needs to become a guaranteed drop. Other loot like Star-lit Crystals I would also consider being a guaranteed drop. Seeing as you can only go get the better rewards from Sambrog 1/day.

    > I would *not* remove the extra currency from completing the challenge multiple times in a day. If you remove the extra currency, you would remove all incentive for people to help their friends run an instance they already ran for the day.


    Thing is this would probably be a nightmare for the developers to program correctly (no expert so this is just a guess). So, it would make more sense just to keep things the way they are.

    Don't forget that the level cap is soon to go up in 2 months and I am sure they have planned for us to do other things for endgame than just farming Sambrog.
    Dagranhad - Burglar | Aldgarea - Loremaster | Barathrothir - Hunter | Golladhar - Captain

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andala_Kanthos View Post
    Yeah there is variety but not enough. You can still get an unusual instance going if you are super determined or lucky. Maybe if there were more people like you who want to do tons of different clusters we'd see more varied LFF messages. Given that you have run a varied set of instances where no particular instance has not been run A LOT more than any other in your total amount of runs done across all instances.
    I have a problem with what you are saying here. There are 40+ instances listed in the Instance Finder (most of them 6-man). And, you are making a bold assumption that just because all you see are Sambrog groups running that other instances aren't being run.

    First, it is unwise to assume that the GLFF/LFF messages you see are all that is happening or is even close to the majority. For instance, there are many evenings in which my kinship does our own thing and you won't hear anything from us on GLFF/LFF unless we need to fill a spot. There are many others who form viable groups without broadcasting.

    Second, along with the first, there are many people who are quite willing to join in other things than Sambrog, but they are not comfortable leading a group. They are waiting for someone else to take the reigns. Perhaps if you took more of an initiative, you might spark the other things to be run more often.

    But, again, to be blunt, a large portion of your "complaint" seems to be born out of an attitude that just does not help your case. You are (seemingly) so blinded by your attitude that you are missing out.
    Dagranhad - Burglar | Aldgarea - Loremaster | Barathrothir - Hunter | Golladhar - Captain

  5. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimdi View Post
    Same problem basically, just instead of easiest/fastest instance you get easiest/fastest cluster\
    So what if the reward is for then, doing all instances in each cluster during the lock period?
    [COLOR="#40E0D0"]Turbine does not give out rewards based on the profit factor; because rewards must be earned by completing content.[/COLOR]

  6. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCrossbow View Post
    I have a problem with what you are saying here. There are 40+ instances listed in the Instance Finder (most of them 6-man). And, you are making a bold assumption that just because all you see are Sambrog groups running that other instances aren't being run.
    Matter of perspective of course what I deem to be A LOT more than another instance. Also you don't seem to understand what I mean; I thought I had made it clear by my first few words stating there is variety but NOT ENOUGH. Sure players are doing all of the instances, said yet again that is not my point.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheCrossbow View Post
    First, it is unwise to assume that the GLFF/LFF messages you see are all that is happening or is even close to the majority. For instance, there are many evenings in which my kinship does our own thing and you won't hear anything from us on GLFF/LFF unless we need to fill a spot. There are many others who form viable groups without broadcasting.
    It is a risk assuming it; i was perfectly aware of it. I was trying to keep it simple. I can only make assumptions on what I can see i.e. public lff messages. Still I think I made my point perfectly clear but some will always not understand.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheCrossbow View Post

    But, again, to be blunt, a large portion of your "complaint" seems to be born out of an attitude that just does not help your case. You are (seemingly) so blinded by your attitude that you are missing out.
    [/QUOTE]

    I'm not going to start guessing here exactly what you mean, to be frank it does not make sense.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by enginekid88 View Post
    My warden got his Annuminus Jacket on first run tonight doing Haudh Valandil.

    For the last 6 hours i ran many characters through tons of different clusters with random groups all from glff. Clearly people are running lots of variety.
    So to summarize your position in abstract, if I understand it:

    Either:
    1) There are no significant issues with proportionality of rewards earned to failure risk and/or time spent in the current LOTRO instance design.

    or

    2) People don't respond in a significant way to any such issues if they do exist


    Point 2 clearly patently false. The history of massive farming of the easiest/most rewarding instances to the virtual exclusion of all else is apparent in LOTRO (Grand Stairs, SH, Durchest, BoE for example). So you are presumably saying that 1 is true? I quite disagree, but I guess it is a matter of opinion....

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by DelgonTheWise View Post
    ....

    yesterday i did:

    Haudh Valandil
    Bells of Dale
    Sammath Gul
    Ost Elendil
    Sambrog
    Fornost Shadow
    Fornost Fire


    What did you do?

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by enginekid88 View Post
    yesterday i did:

    Haudh Valandil
    Bells of Dale
    Sammath Gul
    Ost Elendil
    Sambrog
    Fornost Shadow
    Fornost Fire


    What did you do?
    Irrelevant.

  10. #60
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    Farming is not an exploit A exploit is defined as something that developers did not intend with the game programing or a way to cheat the system. Who cares what people run when they pay for their game in their own way, let them play how they choose. if you don't like running sambrog then don't. Form your own group. plain and simple if you don't know the Instance then teach yourself do it at low level, learn how the mechanics work then lead your own group.

    Or you can just suck it up and run sambrog but calling it an exploit is wrong.

    IMHO if i want to run sambrog 10k times that's my prerogative.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/03202000000339569/01003/signature.png]Sanbor[/charsig]

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by DelgonTheWise View Post
    Irrelevant.
    That figures.

  12. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by enginekid88 View Post
    yesterday i did:

    Haudh Valandil
    Bells of Dale
    Sammath Gul
    Ost Elendil
    Sambrog
    Fornost Shadow
    Fornost Fire


    What did you do?
    I went to the Moors and had some good 10 to 17 minute constant fights.

    Out of the runs you did, how many gold items dropped? I'm all for running instances at least a few times when they're new just to experience them. After the experience of running something new is over I typically only go back in them for character progression reasons. Considering I can do the instances you listed all day long and expect to earn 0 character progression, there is no point in me doing them.

    It's not about sambrog being the easiest to run & accumulate currency. The others simply don't offer enough incentive.

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by enginekid88 View Post
    That figures.
    Why is what I ran or you ran relevant to a general discussion? One data point. I didn't play yesterday. Last instance I ran earlier this week was Thorog, a kin run. Doesn't change my observations, or your lack of response to my post. Individual anecdotes are one thing, what I see overall advertised in glff is another.

    If you don't believe people in LOTRO as a *general rule* take the easiest route to the cheese, you are mistaken IMHO. And the Durchest and BoE farmfests show that. I believe the a disproportionate number of Sambrog runs are in the same vein. Is Sambrog more "fun" than other runs? Not IMHO. I think risk/time spend and reward are out of whack, and wish they'd change them.

    I don't think this is in any way an "exploit" and OP did turn off some folks with his choice of words. It is IMHO just a poor balance choice on Turbines part. I think they should have more care to balance risk/time and reward, and ideally have some automatic balancing mechanisms that REWARD running variety better. Guess this is going nowhere though...
    Last edited by DelgonTheWise; Sep 19 2013 at 02:25 PM.

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andala_Kanthos View Post
    Matter of perspective of course what I deem to be A LOT more than another instance. Also you don't seem to understand what I mean; I thought I had made it clear by my first few words stating there is variety but NOT ENOUGH. Sure players are doing all of the instances, said yet again that is not my point.
    Well, let's see. Sambrog is the current instance that has the best return for time/risk/reward within the 6-man instance category. Unless you are able to balance the scales so that more 6-man instances are all awarding the same for time/risk/reward, Sambrog will remain the most frequently run instance. Period.


    I'm not going to start guessing here exactly what you mean, to be frank it does not make sense.
    Well, then let us review what you said in your very first post...

    Between your topic's title (Sammy Exploit) and this...

    Arguments like "but everyone has a will to chose to do any instance they want, they do not have to do Sambrog" is not an argument I find relevant because
    So, right off the bat, everyone picks up on a very negative attitude that: A) miss-names what an exploit is, and B) dismisses an actually very valid argument.
    That gives off the impression that you really aren't, in fact, looking for a solution... and, it quite possibly comes off as whining. As such, a lot of otherwise valid points get ignored as "yet another thread whining about XYZ."
    Dagranhad - Burglar | Aldgarea - Loremaster | Barathrothir - Hunter | Golladhar - Captain

  15. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Andala_Kanthos View Post
    Hello. To my experience the barrow downs instance with Sambrog is being overly farmed. I see lff messages to Sambrog all over the place. It is ridiculous because it inhibits people from doing a more varied distribution of instances. This is due to unbalanced loot tables versus accessability or difficulty or time requirement to do the instance, I don't know the exact factor. I am sure people could fill in the details what particular factors make it stand out as a prime "farming object".

    This type of behaviour has to stop. Arguments like "but everyone has a will to chose to do any instance they want, they do not have to do Sambrog" is not an argument I find relevant because: The fact stands that it is inhibiting variety (see above) making the other, perhaps more interesting instances neglected and wasted.
    1. It's a bit silly to get upset that people are running the same instances over and over again. You either run it or you don't. If you don't want to run Sambrog, don't join the group. It's that simple.

    2. There are people who play MMOs that are serious stats junkies. There is also a certain efficiency to be found in the wisdom of the crowd. For example, if you require a large number of "item X" (in this case, "seals") to achieve a goal (in this case, "raid armor"), and you have the option of getting "item X" by running a variety of instances, playerbase will very quickly determine the most efficient path to the goal. Even if you make the instances very similar with regards to difficulty and time to complete, any miniscule difference would be quickly identified and exploited.

    I guarantee you that people have already done the math and can tell you how long it takes to run each instance, and how many seals you get from each instance, and can therefore give you a "seals per hour" (SPH) rating that quickly identifies how to maximize your seal acquisition in the shortest amount of time. Even if you have 15 instances with "SPH" ratings ranging from 95 SPH to 98 SPH, you can be virtually assured that the majority of runs will be on the 98 SPH instance. Sure, some people will get bored and others will be chasing down instance-related deeds. But if Turbine are going to put in a mechanism that requires a a long grind to reach a goal, then people will determine the fastest way to grind it out.

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by kmcferrin View Post
    I guarantee you that people have already done the math and can tell you how long it takes to run each instance, and how many seals you get from each instance, and can therefore give you a "seals per hour" (SPH) rating that quickly identifies how to maximize your seal acquisition in the shortest amount of time.
    Which is the core problem: static "SPH" ratings (or more general reward/time rates). Simple solution is to add a dynamic factor to it, e.g. reduce currency rewards by 20% per completion, reset daily.
    Even if you have 15 instances with "SPH" ratings ranging from 95 SPH to 98 SPH, you can be virtually assured that the majority of runs will be on the 98 SPH instance.
    That's assuming all other parameters being equal. In reality with such a small difference people will pick the instance with the lowest failure risk and highest tolerance for group setup and individual errors, as a single bad pull would eliminate the SPH benefit. Like Thadur doesn't take much longer than Sammy with a capable group, but has a much smaller tolerance for errors and is more strict regarding group setup (Sammy can basically be done by 6 champs, trying Thadur with that group would be rather frustrating).
    Used to play: 85 Champ / Captain / Runekeeper / Guardian, Guild Master of everything but cooking.
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  17. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Andala_Kanthos View Post
    Hello. To my experience the barrow downs instance with Sambrog is being overly farmed. I see lff messages to Sambrog all over the place. It is ridiculous because it inhibits people from doing a more varied distribution of instances. This is due to unbalanced loot tables versus accessability or difficulty or time requirement to do the instance, I don't know the exact factor. I am sure people could fill in the details what particular factors make it stand out as a prime "farming object".
    Seals. Sambrog is 4 seals every 10 minutes (if you use the instance finder with the timeout), 20 seals an hour, and 5 hours of farming can net you 100 seals.

    Why do people want seals? Because everyone wants their level 85 firstagers.

    When helms deep gets launched, people will....

    1) massively explore the new zones.
    2) quest/level to 95.
    3) try out big battles and new content.

    And when they are done, they probably got a hold of a second age level 95 weapon...... and first agers are probably not yet released, just like they did with rohan. So no one will be running any seal runs for a while, until (and IF) seals are needed for legendary weapons. As long as there is no need for seal farming, Sambrog runs aren't going to be run. Maybe some to prepare, or just to get a level 95 loot item, but the main reason to run them.... won't be in game yet: First age weapons.


    BTW, count on your seals to be converted to medallions come November.
    Moved from Riddermark to Arkenstone on 9/29/2015!
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    Disclaimer: The definition of "Soon™" is based solely on Turbine's interpretation of the word, and all similarities with dictionary definitions of the word "Soon™" are purely coincidental and should not be interpreted as a time frame that will come to pass within a reasonable amount of time.

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by maartena View Post
    Why do people want seals? Because everyone wants their level 85 firstagers.
    Not everyone. Well, I *want* 1st agers, I just can't plausibly get them, any more than I could in years past when they were gated behind t2 of raids people didn't run even on t1. On some servers it's so impractical as to be almost impossible to acquire enough seals for a TSotEK. On one of my servers it would take four months, on the other at least six months (and on the latter server Enginekid88's single night of instances on Brandywine that he posted above would be an outstanding month of grouping). On these smaller servers and/or less active playing times, the least impractical path to a 1st ager is the AH. For which any instance will do, as will crafting and deeding to lesser extents.

    Since all instances give marks/meds/money, a very small chance of a starlit crystal, and a vanishingly unlikely chance of a gold item, people like me prefer some form of random selection (let the IF maximize the mark/med output). Preferably excluding Sambrog because people have been doing it to death. Presumably the Sambrogs I've seen are the tail end of Eastern time zone activity, or perhaps people who spend *a lot* of time logged in. Or maybe just people who haven't done the math on just how long it would take them to get a 1st ager.

    If scaled instances are still relevant at 95, it would be nice if there were some mechanic to encourage more diverse runs. Grimdi's idea is nice and simple, but others could work too.

    It is a bit curious that Sambrog doesn't have competition from School - the latter seems to have quite competitive SPH for people who care about such things. One person on my less inactive server seems to think OE has the best SPH - after running with them for a while last week I'm pretty burned out on that one too!

  19. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by J_Howell View Post
    Not everyone. Well, I *want* 1st agers, I just can't plausibly get them, any more than I could in years past when they were gated behind t2 of raids people didn't run even on t1. On some servers it's so impractical as to be almost impossible to acquire enough seals for a TSotEK. On one of my servers it would take four months, on the other at least six months
    But for classes like Warden/Champion/LM, it is easy to do some 3-Man instances alone to farm seals (Library challenge mainly) and, if you have time, you can buy a TSotEK in a few days.
    (which is unfair : with my Hunter for example, I need > 1H15 to do the Lib challenge, so not farmable)

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by timmyloo22546 View Post
    I went to the Moors and had some good 10 to 17 minute constant fights.

    Out of the runs you did, how many gold items dropped? I'm all for running instances at least a few times when they're new just to experience them. After the experience of running something new is over I typically only go back in them for character progression reasons. Considering I can do the instances you listed all day long and expect to earn 0 character progression, there is no point in me doing them.

    It's not about sambrog being the easiest to run & accumulate currency. The others simply don't offer enough incentive.
    Only one gold dropped that i saw, the annuminus wardens jacket, but thats normal, they are rare and arent supposed to drop every run.

  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimdi View Post
    Which is the core problem
    Why is it a problem? It takes on average 10 minutes to complete Sammy. Sammy only gives 3-4 seals. It takes on average 20 min to complete Fornost Water. Fornost water gives 6-8 seals.
    I don't see any problem. And besides, Sammy only gives specific loot and deeds. Fornost has a totally different loot table and deeds. People who want to run Sammy run Sammy, people who want to run Fornost run Fornost.

    If you do not want to run Sammy then don't run it. Nothing is forcing you to run it. There are thousands of groups forming for other stuff, you somehow have convinced yourself that the only thing anyone does is sammy. But you have no empirical evidence to even corroborate that claim.

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by enginekid88 View Post
    If you do not want to run Sammy then don't run it. Nothing is forcing you to run it.
    True, and I haven't been in GB for months, as I don't care about FAs anymore (way too much work for a 3% dps increase). It's not about Sammy specifically, but effort/reward balancing in general, which is currently clearly favoring Sammy/School-farming. Why should I get less rewards for actually putting effort in a LT T2C compared to afk-running Sammy/School/OE half a dozen times in the same time? Assuming I can even get a capable group for that.
    There are thousands of groups forming for other stuff, you somehow have convinced yourself that the only thing anyone does is sammy.
    Hint: not everyone plays on Brandywine. There are hardly thousands of players active on some other servers. And I never said people only run Sammy. The OP may have exagerated his point a bit, but just count LFF requests in public channels for a few hours and tell me that Sammy-runs make up for less than 30% of that (while we have about a dozen scaling 6-man instances, and a lot more if you include 3-mans, raids and skirmishes).
    Used to play: 85 Champ / Captain / Runekeeper / Guardian, Guild Master of everything but cooking.
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  23. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimdi View Post
    Which is the core problem: static "SPH" ratings (or more general reward/time rates). Simple solution is to add a dynamic factor to it, e.g. reduce currency rewards by 20% per completion, reset daily.
    I see a couple of major problems with that. Firstly, it assumes that people running a "favorite" instance repeatedly, regardless of why it is their favorite, is a bad thing that should be discouraged. I'm pretty confident that is not a valid assumption. Secondly, it may have unintended consequences. For example, if you're trying to get a Sambrog run (or any other) together, right now anyone of the appropriate level would be likely to join in. However, under your "diminishing returns" plan you would be effectively cutting out anyone who had already run the instance that day who might normally (as it is today) be willing to do another run. You could end up with fewer instance runs being done overall, and I see that as a bad thing.

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by kmcferrin View Post
    I see a couple of major problems with that. Firstly, it assumes that people running a "favorite" instance repeatedly, regardless of why it is their favorite, is a bad thing that should be discouraged. I'm pretty confident that is not a valid assumption.
    I disagree. I think the main reason to choose one instance over another should be things like
    1) instance x is more fun than instance y
    2) I haven't run instance x as recently as instance y, getting bored with y
    3) instance x is harder than instance y, and but I want a challenge and will be compensated for the risk of failure

    I don't think the main reason to pick one instance over another should be
    A) instance x provides more reward per time spent than instance y and additionally has less risk of failure

    I believe reason "A" is what is driving many folks to sambrog right now. I'm all in favor of letting people do what they like with their time in game. I just don't think the game reward imbalances should funnel folks towards the easiest/highest rewarding instances. Harder and/or longer to complete instances should have better rewards. All IMHO of course.

  25. #75
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    Where's the exploit? Misleading thread is misleading.

    Running Sambrog over and over is not an exploit, there is a difference between something decent to spank and an actual exploitable issue.

    Just because you see people wanting groups for Sambrog doesn't mean you should shut them down with ridiculous ideas of gatelocking or, even worse, diminishing returns. Hell, I don't Sam more than 10 times a week usually... I see Sammy runs over glff every now and then, but people do run different things down the line because Sam does get boring after a while.
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