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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliahnus View Post
    You could not be more wrong. There is absolutely no connection between 'solo' and 'playing once a week', none whatsoever.
    I will definitely attest to this. My playtime is cut way back, maybe once or twice a week, but I'm definitely in the 'casual raider' category at least, if not higher. (When I do play, I give it my all. Not sure if I could be considered a hardcore raider though, as historically I've never completed all T2C content on level. Just a decent portion of it.) Likewise, I know some folks who primarily solo who are on every day.
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  2. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Crell_1 View Post
    I believe Fredelas is pointing out the simple fact that you cannot require the gear from the content to beat that tier of that piece of content. What item or items only dropped from the Challenge Mode Chests in Orthanc? Additionally as all 3 entry wings held the same chests, if you didn't need the item to do Lighting CM, it wasn't required until Shadow at the very least.
    A bit late but..

    That would only be true if the wings were of the same difficulty. But anyone who played them knows this is not the case. Completing the easiest wings got you some gear, then the easiest challenge (lightning) got you first agers so then you could go on to work on the harder ones, etc. Only the end boss challenge fight of a raid is the one where you can say you didn't need the gear earned from it to complete it. At that point, it's purely icing on the cake.
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  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minquinn View Post
    Admitting that Turbine would rather not develop expensive content is not painting the game in a good light. How do you think a new player reads that? It makes sense to broadened the scope of xpacs but at the same time we should not be getting less and less quality and quantity with each xpac.

    Going back to the minority everytime: "smallish group consuming the most expensive content in the game". When you are continually called a minority the natural reaction is to defend oneself. Maybe people like the op are tired of hearing this in every single group related thread.
    Not gonna ride on the minority thing but it isn't exactly true that Turbine hasn't done group oriented content for HD. After all the the HD epic battles have the same group sizes supported as a normal instance cluster, the only difference being that there is now a scaling option for smaller group sizes.
    I would wager they weren't cheap to develop either.

    Now no telling how good, challenging whatever they are but they are definately there and in theory support different difficulty through the medals.
    Last edited by Thorwyn99; Sep 20 2013 at 09:56 AM.
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  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minquinn View Post
    Admitting that Turbine would rather not develop expensive content is not painting the game in a good light.
    That's not what they've said, and it isn't what I said either. If anyone thinks Epic Battles is going to be cheap content, they're crazy. They may very well be more expensive than a raid would be. What Turbine is doing is investing their "expensive content" money into a type of content that a far larger percentage of their players will participate in. Again, why is that controversial?

    Khafar

  5. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by twistedmetalplayer21 View Post
    Some people just solo because there are so many A-Holes who call people noobs. Only way for someone to learn at times (if new to MMORPG games) is to be in a group. Hard to be in a group when you kicked, or uninvited simply because you know less then everyone. Your supposed "group gamers" now do not like to pub with raids anymore and only stay within their kinship, so how do you expect any soloer to do anything but solo since everyone is being selfish jerks. Yes I do see people, kind kinships an groups who pub and help to try and teach new people, yet what I have observed from making a character on every server (then deleting due to not liking it because of community) that's only 25% (personal assumption) if people. The rest are verbally abusive bullies who think you have to be a elite gamer do to anything with them. People just don't like having fun anymore unless they are with pros. So expect more solo-able content till people can grow up and be mature.
    New and inexperienced players will always be called noobs, insulted in other ways and even kicked. But rarely in Lotro, at least not in PvE. You obviously haven't given people a proper chance, if you think this game has that many A-holes.

    I play other MMORPGs, mainly for the raids or the PvP. There you haver proper nasty and elitist behaviour. People voting to kick a guy because his dps is to low and he died more than once etc. So I do know A-holes and what problems they breed. Their behaviour excludes and scares people away from adventuring in epic dungeons. Its like a gating mechanism consisting of d-bags and insults, if your skin is not thick enough you're not even going to bother. That's why some stick to solo play. Its really sad actually.

    But Lotro is different. If I compare it with other games, its a free zone (almost), when it comes to insults within dungeon groups. Most likely due to a mature community and easier content. People are nice. This is actually the only game where I join pugs by myself, if it explains stuff better.

    You need to be pretty damn obnoxious, rude and clueless, all at the same time, to be singled out and kicked from an instance here. Asking about tactics, not knowing what to do, having "original" builds or lesser gear, will rarely trigger l2p noob and other sad events. Its rather the other way around. The guy that starts ranting about bad players and throwing insults, is the one getting kicked from the group.

    So yeah, I disagree with you. Because games where elitism and insults thrive and prosper, have a lot more development going towards raids and dungeons. So I really don't think there is a connection between A-hole pro gamers here in Lotro and the current lack of new raids and dungeons. The recent focus on solo content, has other explanations. Players-base vs. financial resources, more than anything else.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khafar View Post
    That's not what they've said, and it isn't what I said either. If anyone thinks Epic Battles is going to be cheap content, they're crazy. They may very well be more expensive than a raid would be. What Turbine is doing is investing their "expensive content" money into a type of content that a far larger percentage of their players will participate in. Again, why is that controversial?

    Khafar
    The controversy is in the alienation of a very fanatic part of the playerbase: the raider/e-sporter. These are players unlike me, who spent years in this game, based their community on it and likely invested a sizeable amount of money too. They've seen LOTRO develop from a game that catered specifically to their needs to a game that percieves to treat them like second class customers.

    Analogy: say Turbine disabled all emotes and the music system in Helm's Deep. What would the RP community do?

    It's not about the size of the budget, it's about how it's spread. And some of that budget for HD went into a 12 person Big Battle. It has not been labelled raid. It does not fit the label skirmish either. So what is it then? How will group strategy really come into play? Will it offer the opportunity to tune up the difficulty to 'blisteringly impossible' - as that is what an e-sporter will be looking for. Questions, questions. I say it's about time Turbine put their cards open on the table and showed all of us what Big Battles actually are. So we can talk about it on a level playingfield, instead of basing ourselves on hearsay and speculation.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rainothon View Post
    The controversy is in the alienation of a very fanatic part of the playerbase: the raider/e-sporter. These are players unlike me, who spent years in this game, based their community on it and likely invested a sizeable amount of money too. They've seen LOTRO develop from a game that catered specifically to their needs to a game that percieves to treat them like second class customers.

    Analogy: say Turbine disabled all emotes and the music system in Helm's Deep. What would the RP community do?

    It's not about the size of the budget, it's about how it's spread. And some of that budget for HD went into a 12 person Big Battle. It has not been labelled raid. It does not fit the label skirmish either. So what is it then? How will group strategy really come into play? Will it offer the opportunity to tune up the difficulty to 'blisteringly impossible' - as that is what an e-sporter will be looking for. Questions, questions. I say it's about time Turbine put their cards open on the table and showed all of us what Big Battles actually are. So we can talk about it on a level playingfield, instead of basing ourselves on hearsay and speculation.
    Agreed. At the moment it seems everyone is angsty about them(There's a few posts of solo players worrying there will be nothing in them in the battles either).

    I'm not sure if Lotro ever specifically catered to the need to the hardcore. Even when it got released back then it got decried in WOW as the "casual" MMO. Which in itself was ironic, but different story :P.
    Last edited by Thorwyn99; Sep 20 2013 at 10:58 AM.
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  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rainothon View Post
    The controversy is in the alienation of a very fanatic part of the playerbase: the raider/e-sporter. These are players unlike me, who spent years in this game, based their community on it and likely invested a sizeable amount of money too. They've seen LOTRO develop from a game that catered specifically to their needs to a game that percieves to treat them like second class customers.

    Analogy: say Turbine disabled all emotes and the music system in Helm's Deep. What would the RP community do?

    It's not about the size of the budget, it's about how it's spread. And some of that budget for HD went into a 12 person Big Battle. It has not been labelled raid. It does not fit the label skirmish either. So what is it then? How will group strategy really come into play? Will it offer the opportunity to tune up the difficulty to 'blisteringly impossible' - as that is what an e-sporter will be looking for. Questions, questions. I say it's about time Turbine put their cards open on the table and showed all of us what Big Battles actually are. So we can talk about it on a level playingfield, instead of basing ourselves on hearsay and speculation.
    Me personally I'm not a fanatic, but I agree with the rest of what you said. I've never even been a regular raider, but I like the option of being able to do that content when the solo content bores me. But just looking at the current xpac ROR my hopes are low. When they say something like Hytbold was so successful that scares me, as it was the only way to obtain raid quality gear for almost 4 months. Which is what made it popular in most cases

  9. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Khafar View Post
    That's not what they've said, and it isn't what I said either. If anyone thinks Epic Battles is going to be cheap content, they're crazy. They may very well be more expensive than a raid would be. What Turbine is doing is investing their "expensive content" money into a type of content that a far larger percentage of their players will participate in. Again, why is that controversial?

    Khafar
    I think it is a wise choice if it works. I think there must be challenge and reward enough that Raiders will go after it and see how well they can score. If it does not do that then it will not keep that group engaged which I think will hurt the LOTRO community in the long run.
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  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aidus View Post
    I think it is a wise choice if it works. I think there must be challenge and reward enough that Raiders will go after it and see how well they can score. If it does not do that then it will not keep that group engaged which I think will hurt the LOTRO community in the long run.
    I think a lot depends on the three new roles.

    What the H are they?

    Will some portion of a 12-man Battle group be required to play non-combat ballistae launcher/fixers and "Officers" who somehow heal and/or command NPCs?

    Platinum is the important part. How well do you have to perform to - and how hard does the instance try to stop you from being able to - get Platinum?

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lothirieth View Post
    A bit late but..

    That would only be true if the wings were of the same difficulty. But anyone who played them knows this is not the case. Completing the easiest wings got you some gear, then the easiest challenge (lightning) got you first agers so then you could go on to work on the harder ones, etc. Only the end boss challenge fight of a raid is the one where you can say you didn't need the gear earned from it to complete it. At that point, it's purely icing on the cake.
    I would only add, that even with the final boss, exclusive pieces you find there can help the group to more efficiently beat that boss in future runs, lessening the chance of time-consuming wipes.
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  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minquinn View Post
    Even if you preface it by saying "(but not nearly all!)" you use the word many. Most of the raiders I have met are trying to obtain full sets of gear in order to progress to the next harder raid or the T2 versions of the raid we are given.

    In Lotro I have seen little to no gear linking like I did while playing Warcraft. Those who were linking the gear were generally linking pieces that were easy to obtain.
    Every now in then in that game you would see the top level gear being linked but for the most part it was mid level items.

    As far as Lotro is concerned that attitude is a small minority behavior. While most may brag about the level of content they have completed t2, T2C, etc. What they are not doing is spam linking gear to "recognize their "superiority". The gear is a means to an end. The end being beating the top level content.

    You know I could sit here and stereotype all solo only players but I will not. Because I know there are differences between every single one of them. Some like skirms, so me like to craft only, some like to just log in for festivals.

    When I began playing this game I had no intention of grouping or raiding etc. It never bothered me that players put in a little extra time and effort to get some better gear. Honestly I cared less about what they had and more about how I played the game the way I liked, if I was rewarded for it or not it didn't bother me.

    Why you carry a bitterness towards these people is beyond me as they can be easily ignored.
    Totally agree. Sure "gear superiority" is a small part of it, a feeling of pride at having gear most players can't obtain; but as Minquinn says, for most raiders it is mostly about gear progression in order to beat the toughest challenges the game has to offer with your team; and for many the competitive aspect of comparing their team's progress to other teams.

    The main problem with the Erebor raids I think lies not in their challenge. One is very challenging to all but the very best teams; and one is extremely challenging to even the most hardcore raiders. The main problem is the loot system. You basically get the same quality items from completing a T2C as you do from faceroll instances. Once a team successfully beats the challenge, there is no incentive to keep spending time on it other than for kicks maybe once and a while.

    Gear equality means grind. If you don't gate gear behind a challenge, it will be gated behind grind. An MMO must keep people logging in and repeating the same content. Based on the RoR model, a lot of people, including myself, are anxious that Big Battles will be a grindfest with little point to actually obtaining the end gear because what will you need it for? I dearly hope Turbine proves me wrong.

    I think it would be ideal if endgame gear was gated behind both challenging raids and extremely challenging solo instances, although for that to work I think a separate instance would have to be developed for each class, designed to challenge that particular class. That would be awesome but I'm not holding my breath.
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  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rainothon View Post
    The controversy is in the alienation of a very fanatic part of the playerbase: the raider/e-sporter. These are players unlike me, who spent years in this game, based their community on it and likely invested a sizeable amount of money too. They've seen LOTRO develop from a game that catered specifically to their needs to a game that percieves to treat them like second class customers.....
    I completely agree with you in the sense that I'd love to see more, bigger, badder, and more epic raids in future releases. I'd like to see brand new raids. I'd like to see old raids rescaled. Although I'm not a hard-core raider, I know for a fact I've spent over 1000 hours raiding since LOTRO released in 2007. (You don't even want to know how many total hours I've spent in game.....) Like others have posted here, I may not be a hard core raider, but I see raiding as being vital for my style of game play. I also like to solo, PvMP, and small group, so I like all the styles.

    The only part of your statement that I disagree with is "a game that percieves to treat them like second class customers." I feel your pain, I do, and I wish there were more classic raids and rescaled raids on the horizon, but unfortunately probably from very early on in LOTRO's history, there never were enough raiders spending enough money for LOTRO to heavily invest in raids. Had there been a lot of raiders spending a lot of money four years ago, then we would be seeing more raids today. My guess is that whether it's 2, 3, 4, or even 5 years ago, there never was a high enough combination of paying players who frequently raided to justify Turbine spending vast amounts of money creating raids. I'm guessing that after all the effort went into the Moria and Mirkwood raids, and Turbine didn't see a sufficient return on investment, then that's when the call was made to tone down the developer time spend creating raids.

    If you've ever played Starcraft 2 and League of Legends, there is a similar dynamic. For a typical gamer, LoL is far easier to pick up and play. SC2 solo ladder is extremely challenging, far more difficult to master than any MMO raid. That's why LoL is the most popular video game in the world and SC2, while very successful in it's own right, does not and never will have over 10 million active players. Can you blame Turbine for going after the LoL-type player?

    It wasn't Turbine that abandoned raiders, it's the raiders who didn't show up in great enough numbers with enough money who left LOTRO. I can almost guarantee you the decision to not make new raids was a data-driven decision that considered data from the past 2-5 years.

    What really stinks is for the remnant of dedicated LOTRO raiders who do care, who did support the game, who like the Noldor of the first age made incredible battle communities -- they really got the raw deal even though they played and paid their best. Hopefully the Epic Battle system will offer enough of a challenge to satisfy their and mine raiding desire.
    other favorite middle-earth games: The One Ring RPG by Cubicle 7; LotR: The Card Game by FFG; Hobbit/LotR Strategy Battle Game by GW

  14. #89
    I hardly come to the forums, of any game, to contribute my thought to the current game I am playing. Most of my ideas and opinions are the same as others, so I feel no need to sound like a broken record. In this case, since I have quit the game for a few good months now, I feel the need to say my one and only post on how I feel about how this game progress... well, a better word would be deteriorate. If I made this post months ago, it'd probably wouldn't come out as graceful. Now that I had time to blow off steam I feel it's a good time to write this.

    When I first played this game, there was a small threshold of time from when it went free to play to when I actually started to play. Maybe a week or two after it went F2P. My husband fought tooth and nail to get me to play this game. Though I did respect the lore of Lord Of the Rings, I was never really a fan of middle earth. Come on, elves... in the middle of the forest... singing to trees...wasn't something I would call an mmorpg and what did we do in the game? Some of us were elves but I know we all sang to those darn trees in the middle of Lothlorian! Anyways, I play space, apocalyptic, post apocalyptic, Japanese and Korean games (I love the old school grind Asian games bring). It was already hard to get me to play something with out any type of technology.

    After trying and trying again, my husband finally won me over when he mention I can play a class that has a pet cat. Yes, that was the deal breaker for me. I got to have a cat that I named after my own Mister Meow. Hey, I am a simple women with simple pleasures!

    Sometime had pass playing lotro and I grew to love the game. Not for lotr lore but how Turbine had the whole game set up. You were able to earn Turbine points in game to, eventually, unlock the whole game. The cash shop in this game was the best I have ever seen. There was no advantage to any players... and honestly, if someone wanted to spend a good 30+ dollars on pots and rev tombs... that was fine by me. Please do, make the servers better, I say. Nothing was funnier then watching someone spend 20 cents trying to kill me, just for me to turn around and demolish them. The end game raids were some of the best raids I ever played. Everything about Moria was great. Hell, compared to what Turbine has recently brought out... dying in Moria is more exciting then getting killed in Flight t2. Back in the days of Moria all the instances had some kind of skill involve to successfully beat each one. During the Moria period there was plenty to do and if one didn't want to do any PvE, then one can go PvP, craft, grind virtues, level up a new toon, festivals (when they were available). Festivals were also time consuming but there was ALWAYS something to do.

    RoI... what can I say... I lost interest in the story of this game in book 2. Though the set up for leveling was nice and smooth, I felt like I didn't get much from that expansion. Did I pre-order it... hell no! Did I grind turbine points for it? Yes. Was it worth the grind... not until they brought out the raids. I can't deny it, ToO was a challenge, a good one, but it was a tough one. One thing that really made me mad about RoI, there was not that much instances out... they few there were was a joke. When roots came out I was so happy Turbine put the challenge back into a 6 man. My kin bash their heads, the first day roots came out, trying to beat it. After 4 hours of trying we got it! It was hard but it wasn't impossible and since ROOTS was not an auto win for most people, Turbine nerf the fight. Also, I am sure we all noticed how much Turbine points we got for slayer deeds? Not as much as before.

    After some observation, I notice the mentality of the basic player on my server change. People wanted to get "carried" though the tough instances and expected to be handed the most valued item at the end of the run. Or someone would ask you to help them out in getting a certain item for their character that you also need. So you help them, pass on the item, and right after they start treating you like #### and haven't even bother to say thank you or offer to help you out. Mentality: "I got my item, screw you."

    Oh, and ### is up with everyone thinking it's cute to play "Who can be the biggest jerk online". What once was a nice community, back in Moria days, turned into a jerk festival. Was there a "douchebag" update for peoples mentality as well as the update for the game when RoR came out?

    Spending most of my days, during RoR, was out in the moors or running lower end content till my ToO and dragon locks were up. Grinding virtues were not worth it for the turbine points you got... just a small decline in fun during those days. People also began to leave for other games never to return... Well, some people return but most didn't.

    RoR IS joke! I grind my Turbine points for weeks so I can get the expansion. Turbine, if I STILL played this game, I'd want my Turbine Points back. You can have the 10 levels I did, money, rewards (lmao if that's what you call them), and anything else that has to do with that expansion. Take it all. PLEASE! I'll even give you my moors armor from my RK, Burg, Mini, LM, and Champ. You can have all the Coms off my warg. Oh, and being a Rank 3 warg with Flayer, that I bought with my Turbine points I grind, is an epic win, said no one ever. Thanks for screwing over all the true players out there who actually worked hard on their creep. I bought Flayer on my warg as a lol to my friend, who was already high rank, and jumped around him chanting on how pro I am. (I am really a nub) I never used Flayer on anyone unless it was my husband or friend.

    Besides a lame moors the pve was very... repugnant. Many people were hoping that there would be a bit more stuff to do with mounted combat but that fell so flat on its face. The horse you acquired for mounted combat is nothing but a gamified mount that does NOTHING but run faster. People hardly use their mounted combat horse for it's true purpose. This whole expansion is just pure trash. Like, EVERYTHING about this expansion IS trash. If I named off everything that sucked, this post would be longer then need be.

    Rebuilding Hybolt was so painful. There was no surprise or dynamic obstacle for rebuilding the small burnt town but the tedious dailies. Five random dailies out of an X amount of dailies made for Hytbolt was not exsactly random nor did it hold my interest. It would have been cool if Orcs or something... ANYTHING, happen to where an action/event, of some sort would hinder you from building the town. Make rebuilding Hytbolt difficult and not so much a mind numbing chore... I mean, Turbine had SO many good ideas for RoR, but the way the programmers went through with them was terrible...

    Don't get me started on the easy mode raid farmers. Talk about being sick to my stomach... Nice to see that the constanly dying hunter, poorly geared Tanks, DPS healers, and about every other incompetent player can win gold items by simply joining a raid and being carried to the end. Why even do these instances anymore? Just give me the gold items Turbine... I mean that's basically what you are doing. With the next expansion, when I log into the game, I want to be automatically 95 with all the gold items and deeds done. So the game can be boring again and the servers can die off because everyone got what they wanted and there is NO end game to lotro anymore unless you are a soloer.

    I had hope, like so many, that Helm's Deep would be different. I mean, how can you screw up Helm's Deep? That's like asking how can you screw up a baked potato... but in small cases... people can screw up a simple baked potato and Turbine finally nailed the coffin for this game when they came out with the new Helm's Deep expansion. I will refrain from using any foul or un-savory language... but I will say... I am out. Turbine, if I could get my money back on all the years I spent for VIP to ONLY play the moors, since that was all VIP was ever good for, I would be bashing down your front door make a bee line to your safe and find any means necessary to get my money back. But, since violence is not an option, I will say this... you suck, you don't listen to your costumers... With Helm's Deep, you have changed the game to the point where it's not even the same game I use to love. Big Missions... no instances or raids...really? Are you trying to kill this game off? I am sure I am not the only one who feels that way. Turbine has came to the point where it does not care about it long term customer base... they want the noob who will play the game for a month, plop down 100$$, with in time played, and leave for the next mmorpg. They carter to game hoppers... ( I am in all means not calling myself a "long-term" player but I do sympathize with some of them who feel the same way as I do.)

    Not only am I mad about how you treat you long term players, I see the way the GMs handle situation on the forums. I may not post here all the time but you better believe I do read the forums a lot. I have seen GMs say some nasty un-called for things... and this is who represents the game?

    Two of my BIGGEST pet-peeves is someone wasting my time and money... Turbine has manage to have done BOTH. So yeah, I am a bit mad. I don't go throwing my money around to every mmorpg I play and I was starting to feel the buyers remorse during my last few months play this game.

    I am happy I don't play this game anymore. It's nice playing Final Fantasy A Ream Reborn. At least in that game, workers fix all the problems AND listen to their customers. They keep us updated at ALL times, unlike Turbine who keeps people in the dark. Maybe you can learn a thing or two from YoshiP.

    Anyways, it's morning and I haven't had my coffee yet. So, time to get my coffee and move on to a game that actually matters and will succeed. See this game in the bathroom.
    And again, this is my first and only post about this game... I don't think I said everything I wanted but at least I said my peace.

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShionUzuki View Post
    well, a better word would be deteriorate. If I made this post months ago, it'd probably wouldn't come out as graceful. Now that I had time to blow off steam I feel it's a good time to write this.
    I say embrace the normal.... And its quite normal that a game of 7 years deteriorates and changes direction over time... Even though i do think things did go south i dont let it bother me that much... I dont enjoy the game as much as i did (hopefully that will change with class revamps) but the game is still enjoyable to me..

    Quote Originally Posted by ShionUzuki View Post
    After trying and trying again, my husband finally won me over when he mention I can play a class that has a pet cat. Yes, that was the deal breaker for me. I got to have a cat that I named after my own Mister Meow. Hey, I am a simple women with simple pleasures!
    Well LMs can still use their Meows... Seems you are not of simple pleasures but instead your appetites have grown... If something simple as that brought you here why isnt it enough to keep you?.... I for one have a more complex taste in games...

    Quote Originally Posted by ShionUzuki View Post
    Sometime had pass playing lotro and I grew to love the game. Not for lotr lore but how Turbine had the whole game set up. You were able to earn Turbine points in game to, eventually, unlock the whole game. The cash shop in this game was the best I have ever seen. There was no advantage to any players... and honestly, if someone wanted to spend a good 30+ dollars on pots and rev tombs... that was fine by me. Please do, make the servers better, I say. Nothing was funnier then watching someone spend 20 cents trying to kill me, just for me to turn around and demolish them. The end game raids were some of the best raids I ever played. Everything about Moria was great. Hell, compared to what Turbine has recently brought out... dying in Moria is more exciting then getting killed in Flight t2. Back in the days of Moria all the instances had some kind of skill involve to successfully beat each one. During the Moria period there was plenty to do and if one didn't want to do any PvE, then one can go PvP, craft, grind virtues, level up a new toon, festivals (when they were available). Festivals were also time consuming but there was ALWAYS something to do.
    Even though quality of content did drop you can still do all those things... The question is if the content got so bad its not at all enjoyable for you... For my self i cant say that is the case.. Maybe because i love Lotr so much... I think that with you its more a case of a classic "burnout" .. Happens a lot... I take a break after every 5-6 months of playing until the next expac.. The wait drives my anticipation.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShionUzuki View Post
    RoI... what can I say... I lost interest in the story of this game in book 2. Though the set up for leveling was nice and smooth, I felt like I didn't get much from that expansion.
    This is the point when things went south for me.. At lvl 65 you had more to do then at any other point in time before or after... I even started a thread on this topic that managed to get around 30 pages of discussion.. At 65 you had 4 major raids, around 15 instances of all sizes, pvp was ok... With ROI that was all lost... From that huge amount of content we went to 1 raid: Draigoch... For me Roi was the breaking point and thus i label it the "worst Lotro expansion ever"

    Quote Originally Posted by ShionUzuki View Post
    After some observation, I notice the mentality of the basic player on my server change. People wanted to get "carried" though the tough instances and expected to be handed the most valued item at the end of the run. Or someone would ask you to help them out in getting a certain item for their character that you also need. So you help them, pass on the item, and right after they start treating you like #### and haven't even bother to say thank you or offer to help you out. Mentality: "I got my item, screw you."
    Meh, you should compare this community to others.. Lotro still has the best one by far.. But I can agree that Roi brought out the worst out of people... There was so little places you could look for gear that players got obsessed in getting the one thing that improves their char... I have seen players stealing, cheating each other, lying like never before in the game...

    Quote Originally Posted by ShionUzuki View Post
    RoR IS joke! I grind my Turbine points for weeks so I can get the expansion. Turbine, if I STILL played this game, I'd want my Turbine Points back.Besides a lame moors the pve was very... repugnant. Many people were hoping that there would be a bit more stuff to do with mounted combat but that fell so flat on its face. The horse you acquired for mounted combat is nothing but a gamified mount that does NOTHING but run faster. People hardly use their mounted combat horse for it's true purpose. This whole expansion is just pure trash. Like, EVERYTHING about this expansion IS trash. If I named off everything that sucked, this post would be longer then need be.
    RoR was a great improvement for me over RoI... New mechanic, better storyline, bigger area with some famous landmarks... etc... Even though pvp was hit badly..
    Trash is a harsh word imo... Things are just not as bad as people say... Wildermore was horrible, but i cant say that about the rest of the expansion..

    Quote Originally Posted by ShionUzuki View Post
    Rebuilding Hybolt was so painful. There was no surprise or dynamic obstacle for rebuilding the small burnt town but the tedious dailies. Five random dailies out of an X amount of dailies made for Hytbolt was not exsactly random nor did it hold my interest. It would have been cool if Orcs or something... ANYTHING, happen to where an action/event, of some sort would hinder you from building the town. Make rebuilding Hytbolt difficult and not so much a mind numbing chore... I mean, Turbine had SO many good ideas for RoR, but the way the programmers went through with them was terrible...

    Don't get me started on the easy mode raid farmers. Talk about being sick to my stomach... Nice to see that the constanly dying hunter, poorly geared Tanks, DPS healers, and about every other incompetent player can win gold items by simply joining a raid and being carried to the end. Why even do these instances anymore? Just give me the gold items Turbine... I mean that's basically what you are doing. With the next expansion, when I log into the game, I want to be automatically 95 with all the gold items and deeds done. So the game can be boring again and the servers can die off because everyone got what they wanted and there is NO end game to lotro anymore unless you are a soloer.
    This, i cant argue with.. For me Hytbolt was the stupidest thing so far in this game which is why i avoided it completely.. The painful grind was so obnoxious to me.. Also the rep grind with the constant reminder that i can speed things up if only i bought mithril coins in the store was a complete turn-off.. Why now do this after so many years of easily acquiring rep.. Money i guess..


    Quote Originally Posted by ShionUzuki View Post
    Two of my BIGGEST pet-peeves is someone wasting my time and money... Turbine has manage to have done BOTH. So yeah, I am a bit mad. I don't go throwing my money around to every mmorpg I play and I was starting to feel the buyers remorse during my last few months play this game.
    To be fair, no one is wasting your money.. Even if you got addicted to this game like many of the players have, it is still your decision to spend money.. No one is forcing you.. So if there is anyone you should be angry at for spending its you...
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  16. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by addict82 View Post
    I think a lot depends on the three new roles.

    What the H are they?

    Will some portion of a 12-man Battle group be required to play non-combat ballistae launcher/fixers and "Officers" who somehow heal and/or command NPCs?

    Platinum is the important part. How well do you have to perform to - and how hard does the instance try to stop you from being able to - get Platinum?
    It sounds interesting... So I'm looking forward to it!
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  17. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by poxnoxious View Post
    Wrong.
    Hardly. I was in a competitive sport (swimming) for 15 years. I earned a full scholarship to college as an athlete after being awarded "State Athlete of the Year" as a senior in high school. Trained 35 hours a week (5-6 hours a day, 6 days a week) for many years. Set an American Record. I was ranked 5th in the world in my best event one year, and I get to have fun seeing one of my ex-teammates still doing commentary for major networks whenever a big swimming event (i.e. Olympics) is on - he once held 2 world records. I understand competitive sports thoroughly, and MMOs are nothing like them. MMOs are entertainment services, where people of every skill level pay to play, and the game needs to help people of every skill level feel successful (so they'll actually keep playing - and paying).

    Nobody is going to get any kudos for being a skilled MMO player outside of a pretty narrow group of gamers, and most of them won't care. Why not? First, because it's a computer game, and relatively few people in this world are going to take that seriously. Second, because MMOs very deliberately focus more on character skill and equipment than on player skill... they have to, so most anyone can succeed at them. Yes, player skill matters at the margins, but in most MMOs a mere 5 levels of character skill will outweigh any amount of human skill. Third, your "opponents" for all forms of PvE (including the ones I enjoy most) are just AIs. Lousy AIs at that - not even remotely as good as they are in a decent single-player shooter.

    Calling them a "sport" is just ludicrous. Wrestling is a sport. Football is a sport. Swimming is a sport. Track, basketball, tennis, gymnastics, soccer, marathon running... all sports. MMOs? Please .

    Khafar
    Last edited by Khafar; Sep 21 2013 at 09:30 PM.

  18. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khafar View Post
    Why not? First, because it's a computer game, and relatively few people in this world are going to take that seriously.

    Calling them a "sport" is just ludicrous. Wrestling is a sport. Football is a sport. Swimming is a sport. Track, basketball, tennis, gymnastics, soccer, marathon running... all sports. MMOs? Please .

    Khafar
    And yet....

    The US has issued League of Legends players with athlete visas, effectively recognising the video game as a professional sport. Not quite as cut and dried as you make out.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/23321595

    League of Legends World Championship Draws Over 8 Million Viewers - For a sense of comparison, the first game of this year's ALCS, between the New York Yankees and the Detroit Tigers, which also took place on October 13, netted about 6.8 million viewers.

  19. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by monteeburns View Post
    And yet....

    The US has issued League of Legends players with athlete visas.
    ...which goes to show just how stupid government bureaucrats can be. No argument there. The World Cyber Games is competitive, no doubt. But computer games aren't sports.

    I should probably point out, though, that MOBAs are at least designed to be tests of human skill. MMOs aren't, and the reasons are well-known... human skill follows a power-law curve, so a relative handful of people compared to the overall population will win a high majority of the time. That's not a grand way to get lots of people of all skills to play (and pay for) your game long-term. So MMOs even the playing field by making character skill king instead of player skill.

    In actual sports, this phenomenon is handled by putting people into "leagues", so people never face others who will crush them completely. When I was in 8th grade or so, I went to "Junior Nationals", setting several American records there. But that wasn't the NCAA or the highest levels of the AAU (later USA Swimming). I would have been crushed by those athletes then.

    Could MMOs be set up like that? Maybe, but what's the point? They're entertainment services, not sports.

    Khafar

  20. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khafar View Post
    ...which goes to show just how stupid government bureaucrats can be. No argument there. The World Cyber Games is competitive, no doubt. But computer games aren't sports.

    I should probably point out, though, that MOBAs are at least designed to be tests of human skill. MMOs aren't, and the reasons are well-known... human skill follows a power-law curve, so a relative handful of people compared to the overall population will win a high majority of the time. That's not a grand way to get lots of people of all skills to play (and pay for) your game long-term. So MMOs even the playing field by making character skill king instead of player skill.

    In actual sports, this phenomenon is handled by putting people into "leagues", so people never face others who will crush them completely. When I was in 8th grade or so, I went to "Junior Nationals", setting several American records there. But that wasn't the NCAA or the highest levels of the AAU (later USA Swimming). I would have been crushed by those athletes then.

    Could MMOs be set up like that? Maybe, but what's the point? They're entertainment services, not sports.

    Khafar
    Times are a changing though. Maybe computer gaming doesn't fit into the same definition of what sport was, but if darts, snooker, chess, fishing, shooting, archery, poker etc are considered sports, what's the difference? In Poker, players regularly face others who will crush them completely. In the world series of poker final, complete unknowns will often face the best in the world, and usually get crushed. None of these require physical effort, just people who want to compete against others. I've no argument that MMOs don't qualify as a sport as it stands, but saying that relatively few take gaming seriously is a little behind the times. Infact I wouldn't be suprised if before too long computer sports bypasses most current olympic sports in terms of popularity. It's not something that I'm interested in, but it crops up pretty regularly on BBC news so someone is taking notice.
    I'm sure a lot of todays sports started out as entertainment too before evolving into something different. It's not hard to see how things have changed from the days of pong, to what we have now - 8 million viewers, a $1 million prize pot and an 8,000 seater stadium for LoL. Besides, aren't most sports now mainly entertainment services?
    Last edited by monteeburns; Sep 22 2013 at 12:20 AM.

  21. #96
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    If it's directly competitive or can somehow be judged and scored so as to create a competition, it can be classified as a sport. If it's both physical and competitive, then it's an athletic sport. If an organization can get people to pay to watch it, then it gets called as a sport, even if it's only vaguely competitive and depends a lot on luck. (I'm looking at you, fishing.)

    MMOs of the RPG type like LOTRO would not fall into the sport category. We will never see The World Hytbold Rebuilding Championships.
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  22. #97
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    what turbine is doing?? well quite nothing cause is not a person ,just a company name
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  23. #98
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    Regardless of whether an MMORPG can ever be called a sport, e-sport, or otherwise, it's indisputable player skill enters heavily into beating the hardest raid content. (And PvP, but I'm assuming we're strictly talking about the PvE side of MMOs here) Previously in LOTRO, top-end gear was gated behind these challenges. In order to make top-end gear accessible to everyone, it is now gated behind grind. That's my issue with the current system, not that everyone has nice stuff now. If it could be gated behind different tough group and solo challenges, that would be ideal. But any solo challenge would have to be very difficult to prevent players just farming it and ignoring any group challenges. It would have to be tough enough that only players who really prefer the solo playstyle would take that path as the preferred path to their gear. It would be a hard balancing act for Turbine, I know. Perhaps they are trying to achieve this in the way Big Battles is set up, with both solo and group options. I can only hope. I'm just sick of faceroll grind.
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  24. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by CalloWindBringer View Post
    If it could be gated behind different tough group and solo challenges, that would be ideal.
    Constructing a strict meritocracy for a paid entertainment service is a stupid idea, and always has been. That works great for a professional sports league, but it's going to annoy or perhaps even alienate large percentages of the very audience you'd like to appeal to in a paid entertainment service.

    In an MMO, the real currency is time, and time-to-reward is a good way to set things up IMO. If you do the most difficult content in the most challenging way, you should get far greater rewards (in barter terms) than the people who are doing it in an easier manner. Status is achieved by doing it first (or nearly so), not by doing it at all. If a casual solo player can earn all the best rewards an expansion has to offer in 12 months, maybe the most skilled players working together can do it in 2-3. Or something like that. A highly skilled solo player might be able to do it in 6 instead of 12, but they'd stand no chance of doing it in 2.

    That sort of thing fit with Turbine's original idea for Comparable Incomparables, except that in C.I. each major playstyle would be able to earn its own distinct-but-comparable rewards. I suspect that turned out to be too much itemization effort, but the idea behind it was still a good one. We'll see how Epic Battles works on this front, but the scoring they talked about at least has the potential to offer rewards in the manner I'm describing.

    Khafar
    Last edited by Khafar; Sep 22 2013 at 07:44 PM.

  25. #100
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    Anyone can call anything a "sport," and be right about it. Competitive eating is a sport. LoL, even though I would rather suffer through the swine flu for a week (which I have) than watch 5 minutes of its idiotic play, is also a sport. (I don't mind playing LoL, but watching it is imvho excruciating).

    However, to call something a "sport that has paid professional players," there actually has to be enough people around the world who will pay to watch it and/or sponsors who will pay team to market their brands. By this standard, NO MMO IS A "sport that has paid professional players." No one gives a rat's rear about watching a bunch of MMO players run some dumb raid for the upteenth time. However, Starcraft 2 is a "sport that has paid professional players" because hundreds of pro players make their full time living playing it. I love watching SC2 pro matches and pro replays. As much as I don't like watching LoL, it is a huge pro sport. So is Valve's DOTA with its prize pools in the millions of dollars. For that matter, I really liked playing hockey and football in high school, but can't stand watching them on a tv. So I personally think SC2 is much more of a valid sport than pro hockey and football. Again, my own stupid opinion and I know there's 20 million die hard hockey/baseball/football fans who'd disagree.

    So you can say that dog walking is a sport, and you'd be right. You can say that eating 100 hot dogs in an hour is a sport and be right. You can think that you are a pro MMO player. But ain't nobody gonna pay to watch you play your MMO, so, your hubris aside, your MMO ain't a real pro sport.
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