Hmmmmm.... What is Turbine doing?

[mr_toad]

Dude - stop making stuff up.

I never said the the things you responded to. "It's for the children"? As if I would be so saccharine. "Turbine should go bankrupt"? Never said that either. "... so your kids can play the game for free" well now you're either making up in your head what I didn't say or you didn't actually read my post.

And then you blanket-insult and completely ignore the actual point of the post with "only an idiot..." I also never said I expected anything for free (lest I'd have been f2p like some others have been).


I'll boil down my original post to less than 10 words:
"Turbine, you broke your promise. I hate that."

Hopefully you can't misrepresent that and you might get the point of my original post.

For someone to say "Turbine, you promised, and I expect honesty" may seem extremist to you ... but in fact it's my right to expect honesty and yours to respond to stuff I didn't say as if I had said it.

I guess this whole controversy (not just your post) riles me up because the only "promise" I ever thought Turbine made was to make an awesome middle-earth MMO in return for people paying for it. As a commercial enterprise, I'd never expect Turbine or any other company to keep a free feature free forever. Even the whole F2P pricing structure is not a "promise" -- F2P could be revoked at any time (though I doubt it would happen because I'd guess that F2P is a financial boon for Turbine). Perhaps "idiot" is too harsh, but in general, if a person thinks that certain free features of any service (online gaming, water, healthcare, phone, internet, etc) are going to stay free forever, then that specific thinking of theirs is imo extremely naive. Take cell phone service for example -- I can't stand that most of the major wireless carriers in the USA no longer offer unlimited data (except Sprint I think), but I'd never accuse those wireless companies of "breaking promises." I realize that they are commercial enterprises both out to make a profit as well as pay their hard working employees a fair wage. Even "unlimited data" is not really a promise because it simply means you have a very high cap before your service is slowed down or cut off. So again, the only "promise" I expect a company to keep is to provide an awesome product or service in exchange for my money. Purely in my opinion, I believe Turbine has kept that promise and delivered an incredibly awesome middle-earth MMO for the past 6 years.

You're entitled to your opinion though, and I didn't mean to suggest you weren't. Although I feel strongly about this particular topic, on many other topics and decisions throughout my life that have nothing to do with online gaming, I've made errors of judgement. So I humbly and painfully realize that I have been wrong about many things in the past and try to learn from my mistakes. Although my writing here may come across as pretty intense and perhaps arrogant, I've learned the hard way that I am often wrong when I make real life decisions.

[Crell_1]

ToO T2 CMs most certainly did (all but lightning wing). Your argument has been presented countless times and answered with this answer numerous times.. yet it still goes on and on. And it's always people who didn't do much raiding who bring out this argument. I know you know a lot about the game but in this case you're simply not informed enough to be making such a claim.

I believe Fredelas is pointing out the simple fact that you cannot require the gear from the content to beat that tier of that piece of content. What item or items only dropped from the Challenge Mode Chests in Orthanc? Additionally as all 3 entry wings held the same chests, if you didn't need the item to do Lighting CM, it wasn't required until Shadow at the very least.

[Khafar]

"Turbine, you broke your promise. I hate that."

Except "We'll provide the entire epic story for free until the game shuts down" is not a promise they ever made. When the game went F2P, this is what they said about the epic story line in their press release:

Free means Free! – Players will download LOTRO by visiting www.lotro.com and join with millions of other adventurers as they explore the most complete and authentic recreation of Middle-earth ever created and participate in LOTRO’s award-winning epic story up to level 50 for free.

Want to go beyond 50? You'll need to buy Moria with $$ or perhaps earned TP. That was the deal then. Later, they extended that so people could go beyond 50, but I don't believe they've ever said that was "free forever". Just as they updated that little chart when they allowed free players to do the epic story past 50, they'll now have to change it again to say something like "Unlimited To Level 85" once they actually ship Helm's Deep. Nothing people have today has been taken away from anyone. The offer just hasn't been extended past 85 for free players (unless they want to grind out the TP to buy the expansion, just as they had to do at first for Moria).

Khafar

[Maen]

Although I do not group regularly, I am deeply convinced, that a healthy MMO has to have a healthy amount of raiders, even if they are "minority" in comparison with others. It influences MMO society (other aspects as well - in example, economy) very much.

Group raid/content is important. Soloers, casuals or PvPers will still try it for fun (if it is well developed and written) several times, and raiders will keep the buzz in the game beating instances again and again for various achievements.

I think player numbers started decreasing when raiders started to leave. There must be a relation. At least I had this impression over the past year. So 10-1 equals not 9, but maybe 6 or less.

On a more optimistic note: Helm's Deep required tech different to the standard instances and raids, and battles have all chances to turn out as a fun thing to do. Looking into the future, however, I really hope for some 6-12-24 instances.

[Minquinn]

Except "We'll provide the entire epic story for free until the game shuts down" is not a promise they ever made. When the game went F2P, this is what they said about the epic story line in their press release:

Free means Free! – Players will download LOTRO by visiting www.lotro.com and join with millions of other adventurers as they explore the most complete and authentic recreation of Middle-earth ever created and participate in LOTRO’s award-winning epic story up to level 50 for free.

Want to go beyond 50? You'll need to buy Moria with $$ or perhaps earned TP. That was the deal then. Later, they extended that so people could go beyond 50, but I don't believe they've ever said that was "free forever". Just as they updated that little chart when they allowed free players to do the epic story past 50, they'll now have to change it again to say something like "Unlimited To Level 85" once they actually ship Helm's Deep. Nothing people have today has been taken away from anyone. The offer just hasn't been extended past 85 for free players (unless they want to grind out the TP to buy the expansion, just as they had to do at first for Moria).

Khafar

I see you have your red pen ready today. Do you ever agree with anything another player says ever? The guy made a rational statement yes Turbine said only to level 50 but have offered it for 35 level following that. Which is generous but to me it looks like an attempt to target the remaining players (solo players) to open their wallets.
If you want to play defense I hear the Redskins are accepting walk ons.

[RicardoFurriel]

Except "We'll provide the entire epic story for free until the game shuts down" is not a promise they ever made. When the game went F2P, this is what they said about the epic story line in their press release:

Khafar

I understand you are in denial. I understand you couldn't imagine someone like Sapience saying something like:

I've actually seen someone complaining that we're living up to the promise we made that the epic story line will always be free to all players. I'm not sure what to do with that complaint at all.

But he did. And he did it right here: https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...48#post5676848

Also, this was shown to you in here: https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...58#post6921558.

I guess you're too busy to reply.

[mr_toad]

I see you have your red pen ready today. Do you ever agree with anything another player says ever? The guy made a rational statement yes Turbine said only to level 50 but have offered it for 35 level following that. Which is generous but to me it looks like an attempt to target the remaining players (solo players) to open their wallets.
If you want to play defense I hear the Redskins are accepting walk ons.

I understand you are in denial. I understand you couldn't imagine someone like Sapience saying something like:



But he did. And he did it right here: https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...48#post5676848

Also, this was shown to you in here: https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...58#post6921558.

I guess you're too busy to reply.

By these standards, then every community manager and game developer who's ever posted on forums is guilty of broken promises too. In everything in life, the only constant is change. People change, games change, etc, etc. I'm gathering from the supposed shock of some here that they've never read other game forums and seen how many previously made statements on the part of devs and cm's were later changed. It's like someone who has lived their entire lives in a basement and now are complaining that the sun is hurting their skin because they go outside.

If any of you have ever said marriage vows, do you vow to never change as a person or to be committed to each other for life? In my very humble and near worthless opinion, the only PROMISE Turbine has ever made to its players is that they will faithfully try to create the absolute best middle-earth MMO they can and give players the chance to play it. But unlike marriage, players ultimately have to pay $ to experience LOTRO to the fullest.

I just don't know how to write this in a nicer way, but whining comments (the comments, not the people themselves to be clear) about "broken promises" remind me of whining comments immature little kids make when they needlessly nag their parents. Grow up.

But by all means continue to troll, this discussion is fun. Except don't pick on Khafar, he's just about the most helpful and level-headed person on these forums. If you want to pick on someone, pick on me. I'm a hot-headed idiot

[RicardoFurriel]

By these standards, then every community manager and game developer who's ever posted on forums is guilty of broken promises too. In everything in life, the only constant is change. People change, games change, etc, etc. I'm gathering from the supposed shock of some here that they've never read other game forums and seen how many previously made statements on the part of devs and cm's were later changed. It's like someone who has lived their entire lives in a basement and now are complaining that the sun is hurting their skin because they go outside.

If any of you have ever said marriage vows, do you vow to never change as a person or to be committed to each other for life? In my very humble and near worthless opinion, the only PROMISE Turbine has ever made to its players is that they will faithfully try to create the absolute best middle-earth MMO they can and give players the chance to play it. But unlike marriage, players ultimately have to pay $ to experience LOTRO to the fullest.

I just don't know how to write this in a nicer way, but whining comments (the comments, not the people themselves to be clear) about "broken promises" remind me of whining comments immature little kids make when they needlessly nag their parents. Grow up.

But by all means continue to troll, this discussion is fun. Except don't pick on Khafar, he's just about the most helpful and level-headed person on these forums. If you want to pick on someone, pick on me. I'm a hot-headed idiot

Oh, I'm not picking on Khafar. All I'm doing is "obeying" to his several requests:

Except "We'll provide the entire epic story for free until the game shuts down" is not a promise they ever made.

Can someone please point me to where they actually said this? That VIP/Premium/Free chart people have been posting doesn't. Their initial press release for the game's transition to F2P said the epic would be free up to level 50. Where did they say that the epic story would be free for all time at all levels, until the day the game closes? Maybe they did, but I haven't seen it.

Out of 10k posts, I'm sure Khafar helped many players. That's not the point.

[Minquinn]

Oh, I'm not picking on Khafar. All I'm doing is "obeying" to his several requests:

Yeah but there is no need to. This dude thinks we are the trolls. Maybe if I wasn't scolded everytime I made a post about group content by this individual I wouldn't be so bitter and snarky.

One last time I'll make the analogy. I dislike the PVP function of this game. What you will not see me doing is hopping into every thread about pvp and calling them a minority or telling them how their content should be siphoned out.

But I forgot I'm a minority in this game so why even address us.

[Bronzesquire]

I don't know if it's "vast" or not, but it's almost certainly a majority. That isn't unique to LOTRO either. Koster said 10 years ago that players will solo until the game stops giving them a choice - an exaggeration, but there's some truth in it. I certainly hope nobody's going to make an appeal for forced grouping.

Nonsense. "Solo" in this context means "solo adventuring", not "hermit". Solo adventuring is clearly the majority playstyle, in any MMO which allows it. Soloers interact with other players in all sorts of ways, from chatting to trading/buying/selling, helping others, joining social guilds (kinships), etc. They just don't spend much time adventuring in groups.

So you have a sample size of 1? Congratulations. You do realize that Turbine knows all of this without any of the uncertainty that you and I have, right? They can just pull it from their database, and see which accounts raid, and which don't - how much time is spent on various activities, etc. They do very extensive data mining in order to help them decide what to do, whether forum feedback lines up with reality on the ground, etc.

I've pointed this out before, but once upon a time a much more raid/instance-centric game (WoW) was instrumented to give extensive (and comprehensive) data on all of the characters on a number of servers, 15-18 months after it shipped. This data was pulled on every character logged in, every 10 minutes, 24/7. What it found was quite surprising. Like... only 1 in 3 level-capped characters even set foot in a single raid during an entire month, and only half of those had stayed long enough to complete one raid. In a month. Those who raided "regularly" (3 or more in a month) were only a fraction of that 1/2 of 1/3. Etc. Many raiders flatly refused to believe it, because "everyone they knew" raided - an excellent example of self-selection bias. Yet it was true.

Those seem like very bad assumptions, and if true, you have to also assume that Turbine doesn't care if their flagship game crashes and burns. And that they must actually want more layoffs, since the ones they went through last year were so much fun.

Uh huh. Sure.

They're making decisions to try and give the most entertainment to the most people they can within their resource/budget constraints. That's what rational businesses do, and I see no reason to think they're any different. You might not like those decisions, but that doesn't make them wrong.

Khafar

O.K. I apologize for my sample size of 1. Like most, I am aware that you need a sample size of 3 for significance, and only if they fall in nearly a straight line. (Also when subject to outliers, these can instantly be made either insignificant, or significant. However, you've all heard the posts about what has been happening to Imladris. Vilya has survived, but others have not, so me and my friends just started from scratch there. We won't power level, but we will be back to where we were. I could argue that I did not have time to find more samples of soloers, but that is all subject to a selection bias. I found a raider on the landscape (a seemingly unselected zone, or even biased against raiders.) but the crafting hall is biased, as crafting toons, and soloers seem to be there more often.

Again, I have to take what I can get, and I made an inference based on what I was seeing. I apologize for my fears of the games peril, but with so many kins dying, it seems rational for me to claim this. I honestly don't know how much of the population is dropping, but the kin world is the world I live in. As shown before, I have not seen much of anything of the soloers' world. I do not know their perspective.

My conclusions were based on a dying server. (Or as I and others have observed.) I am now working with others. I honestly still do not know if I wish to purchase Helm's Deep. The sad truth is, while I know there are many games out there for "my type." I don't like them. I migrated here from WoW because I was fed up with #1 Wizard of Oz characters as major raid bosses. #2 All the flash. Honestly, I hate the flashy-nees of WoW. The LoTRO graphics are SO GOOD, and not painful for the eyes. I loved the game, during the SoM days, I was in a lucky position. I started pugging ye old Fornost, and Angmar instances. There was an amazing raid population. I recommended 3 friends to switch to this game. They all did. Some people can be a pain, but those people were also a foreign concept in regards to LoTRO

When I started the forum, I was worried. I am a raider, but finding a not flashy/annoying MMORPG that still has a system as good as this, and a player population to back it up will prove difficult. That is why I stay. I have not lost all faith in turbine, because I tend to hold a lower standard than most raiders. (Difficulty, for me, is still essential. If my group doesn't wipe the first go, or it just becomes unenjoy-able (Spending time with your friends?? Unenjoyable? Yeah. Talking via skype in a big group with a raid to talk about is great, but when everyone is just frustrated after we've won, it leaves a bad overall feeling.)

I am sorry I made biases about soloers. In my mind, they seem to not exist. Keep in mind, I am looking for players on the landscape or randomly encounter them. I know the formula. IF I go to Bree, THEN I will find players. (The same applies for the smaller metropoli (hehe.) of Lotro, but Bree seems to always be there, since launch.)
But they do exist, and I am well aware of it because turbine has told me so to explain what they were doing. Yes, it is called marketing. However, from my perspective, turbine's marketing to another group causes them to do things I not only don't like, but I absolutely loathe. (We are also talking about slot-machines, and trait trees. (As far as I am concerned, trait trees were a pain in my WoW experience (which was brief.)) but are talking, more particularly about their direction regarding group content.) At this point, it is almost like I am "at war," if you will (Granted, there is very little to do in the war but state your opinion on the forums, and the result of the forums has little to no affect of the objective in mind.) This makes sense because the other side, and what they do to the game seem foreign. Therefore, they act like a foreign country, and negative stereotypes will be created based on observations made of the game.


So what are we to make of all of this????? The bottom line is that I am a moderately long term player who does not feel like purchasing for an expansion with the direction they are going. I still have friends. We will still play LoTRO. (Granted we can't find something that meets my ridiculous requirements. (Considering how I do not want to buy their expansions, I still find LoTRO hard to top. I could go on for hours about how absolutely unplayable other MMOs are. Let's not even get into MMORPGs on console video games, I could rant about those for days.) I just wonder what turbine is doing? Why so many players are disappearing, being replaced by ones I rarely ever see.








"My power is discombobulatingly devastating. It is ludicrous that these mortal dare enter my realm."

[Khafar]

I guess you're too busy to reply.

No, I simply never saw it. I don't read every post in here, not by a long shot.

As for Sapience's quote... I had never seen that before either. It certainly lends more credence to the claim, although I've still never found anywhere that they actually made such a promise. Not in their press releases, their release notes, their advertising, their interviews with gaming press. All people have been able to point to is a payment plan comparison chart, one which has been updated each of the past 3 years (and which didn't start out saying that the epic story was "Unlimited").

If someone else has seen that promise, great.

Khafar

[Khafar]

Do you ever agree with anything another player says ever?

Sure, I agree with all sorts of things people say around here - if they make sense to me. Yula, the "heydt"s, Nymphonic, mjk47, WBS, many others all make sense on a regular basis. The people who argue that solo adventuring = single-player game or that MMOs = raids + instances... hardly ever. I think those are flatly ludicrous positions.

I'm not saying you're doing so, but a great many have.

Khafar

[Yula_the_Mighty]

The only issues are the following:

1) Whenever a human being uses "never, ever, always" or any other of these words that lock you in a decision that is permanent. That person has made a mistake. Life does not work this way.

2) Whenever a second human being reads one of these "never, ever, always" decisions - decides to believe that it is permanent. Another mistakes has been made.

3) Whenever a human being reads one of these "never, ever. always" decisions. They misunderstand what is being said. Another mistake has been made.

For example, Sapience could say in 2011 that "The Epic will always be free.". Sapience means "You will always have free access to the Epic content that exists at the moment of Sapience's statement.". You think that Sapience means that all future Epic content and all current Epic content is free. It is very common problem in human communication to leave out important information instead give the short answer that leaves out all the if, and, but.

There is a reason things like an EULA go on and on and on and on. Page after page.

[RicardoFurriel]

No, I simply never saw it. I don't read every post in here, not by a long shot.

As for Sapience's quote... I had never seen that before either. It certainly lends more credence to the claim, although I've still never found anywhere that they actually made such a promise. Not in their press releases, their release notes, their advertising, their interviews with gaming press. All people have been able to point to is a payment plan comparison chart, one which has been updated each of the past 3 years (and which didn't start out saying that the epic story was "Unlimited").

If someone else has seen that promise, great.

Khafar

Wait... Doesn't Sapience represent the THEY you speak of?

[Khafar]

Wait... Doesn't Sapience represent the THEY you speak of?

Sure, but CMs (and developers, for that matter) make mistakes all the time. Did what he said that one time represent their policy? It seems a big enough deal that Turbine should have mentioned it in their advertising, promo interviews for the game, release notes, etc. They certainly did when it was limited to 50. Yet I didn't find that claim anywhere, until a single post in the middle of a thread 2 years ago was pointed out by someone here.

I do remember them saying they had opened up the epic story some time after F2P, but not the exact wording. Unfortunately, it's become awfully hard to get the full text on release notes now that Lorebook is gone. I could go back and look up each and every one in the Wayback Machine, but I just don't want to work that hard.

Khafar

[Minquinn]

Sure, I agree with all sorts of things people say around here - if they make sense to me. Yula, the "heydt"s, Nymphonic, mjk47, WBS, many others all make sense on a regular basis. The people who argue that solo adventuring = single-player game or that MMOs = raids + instances... hardly ever. I think those are flatly ludicrous positions.

I'm not saying you're doing so, but a great many have.

Khafar

So why bring it up since it was not discussed by anyone in this thread? So is that what this is all about? Another way to start a solo vs raider argument?

I post a lot around here but since I regularly support that all playstyles should get content I see my name was excluded. I believe I make sense when I speak as well. But since you don't like what I gotta say that's fine everyone has a right to disagree. But you can't say that any of the posts I make do not make sense. That's basically dismissing everything I say.

I've never said one time that solo adventuring should be banned from MMO's. Even if you are not saying I am you are equating me to those individuals. The folks you say annoy you. I'm not here to annoy anyone I'm here to lobby for the features of the game I like just like you are. Myself and other players are just tired of having our posts totally dismissed by being called a minority that doesn't matter.

Should I go into the housing threads and tell them they should get what they want because they are a minority? Maybe i should also tell them that they don't make any sense?

[monteeburns]

Sure, but CMs (and developers, for that matter) make mistakes all the time. Did what he said that one time represent their policy?

Khafar

Sapience is always keen to point out that he has the facts, but as you say people do make errors. But where confusion arises because of such mistakes, it's normal to admit an error was made, and set the story straight, to clear up the confusion that has arisen because of it. As he hasn't mentioned anything about making an error in regards to this, it's fair to take his statement at face value.

[Khafar]

So why bring it up since it was not discussed by anyone in this thread?

Um... the OP said that "MMO solo is an oxymoron", implied that casual soloers were rare, suggested that a reasonable assumption is that we log in once a week, etc.

Besides, I have never said (nor implied) that raiders should be "banned", or any such thing. Nor that Turbine should do zero raids, ever. I just said that raiders are a smallish group consuming the most expensive content in the game, and that it makes sense for Turbine to try and broaden the scope of expensive content. Is that really so controversial?

Khafar

[twistedmetalplayer21]

Some people just solo because there are so many A-Holes who call people noobs. Only way for someone to learn at times (if new to MMORPG games) is to be in a group. Hard to be in a group when you kicked, or uninvited simply because you know less then everyone. Your supposed "group gamers" now do not like to pub with raids anymore and only stay within their kinship, so how do you expect any soloer to do anything but solo since everyone is being selfish jerks. Yes I do see people, kind kinships an groups who pub and help to try and teach new people, yet what I have observed from making a character on every server (then deleting due to not liking it because of community) that's only 25% (personal assumption) if people. The rest are verbally abusive bullies who think you have to be a elite gamer do to anything with them. People just don't like having fun anymore unless they are with pros. So expect more solo-able content till people can grow up and be mature.

[Iozeph]

The only issues are the following:

1) Whenever a human being uses "never, ever, always" or any other of these words that lock you in a decision that is permanent. That person has made a mistake. Life does not work this way.

2) Whenever a second human being reads one of these "never, ever, always" decisions - decides to believe that it is permanent. Another mistakes has been made.

3) Whenever a human being reads one of these "never, ever. always" decisions. They misunderstand what is being said. Another mistake has been made.

For example, Sapience could say in 2011 that "The Epic will always be free.". Sapience means "You will always have free access to the Epic content that exists at the moment of Sapience's statement.". You think that Sapience means that all future Epic content and all current Epic content is free. It is very common problem in human communication to leave out important information instead give the short answer that leaves out all the if, and, but.

There is a reason things like an EULA go on and on and on and on. Page after page.

What then? So what you're saying is that we should ever assume that every word given to the community is false -a pack of lies- and that should we choose to believe it, the fault for such wrongdoings doesn't fall upon Turbine? No, but only more the fools us?

You see this is why terms or service/lengthy legal documents that you must agree to before playing, but after your monies are taken, are rubbish and should never hold up.

I see it now- having into surgery-

Doctor: Here you're come to have a new liver in?

Patient: It's my appendix burst.

Dr: Right. Sign here.

P: What's this then?

Dr: Oh don't be a baby. Sign it now, would you?

P: But what is it?

Dr: Oh, come on. It's nothing.

P: Nothing!? Then why?

Dr: Nothing. Sort of...

P: Sort of!?

Dr: *sighs* See it only says it should you come in for your kidney out...

P: My appendix.

Dr: Right, whatever... Should you, and then should I lop off say... Some other bit. Say an arm, or a foot, or... I don't know. Name something...

P: Me!?

Dr: Oh play along. Something. Some other bit.

P: The WRONG bit.

Dr.: Not so far as you know! And who's the Doctor, here, hey? *huffs*

P: Sorry.

Dr: Right. But should that ever -and need I say never- come to pass?

P: Oh... *groans*

Dr.: Right. Well, then it's nothing I've done wrong.

P: Nothing!?

Dr: Never so far as you know. And even so it says it here, and here, and here...

P: Where?

Dr: Oh never mind that. Just sign it.

P: No.

Dr: You're nearly for it now, aren't you.

P: I am not! Not yet!

Dr: Right. Quite right. Not yet... *stares at his watch - chuckles to himself*

P: *signs*

Dr: Good man! Now for those tonsils!

[Thorwyn99]

The only issues are the following:

1) Whenever a human being uses "never, ever, always" or any other of these words that lock you in a decision that is permanent. That person has made a mistake. Life does not work this way.

2) Whenever a second human being reads one of these "never, ever, always" decisions - decides to believe that it is permanent. Another mistakes has been made.

3) Whenever a human being reads one of these "never, ever. always" decisions. They misunderstand what is being said. Another mistake has been made.

For example, Sapience could say in 2011 that "The Epic will always be free.". Sapience means "You will always have free access to the Epic content that exists at the moment of Sapience's statement.". You think that Sapience means that all future Epic content and all current Epic content is free. It is very common problem in human communication to leave out important information instead give the short answer that leaves out all the if, and, but.

There is a reason things like an EULA go on and on and on and on. Page after page.

True true but it's just marketing, to avoid any confusion Turbine could just have said "We plan to keep the Epic Free" plans can change, promises should not.

[Thorwyn99]

Yeah but there is no need to. This dude thinks we are the trolls. Maybe if I wasn't scolded everytime I made a post about group content by this individual I wouldn't be so bitter and snarky.

One last time I'll make the analogy. I dislike the PVP function of this game. What you will not see me doing is hopping into every thread about pvp and calling them a minority or telling them how their content should be siphoned out.

But I forgot I'm a minority in this game so why even address us.

If you read the the OP he made alot of assertions about solo players, it is only natural someone with that play style to come in and defend against what he thinks are false assertions. Just as you defend what you consider false assertions about raiders/groupers.

Although i'm getting tired of it i will argue against posts made that raiders should get gear that is more powerful than other players. First such a thing always makes games less interesting to me and directly could affect my enjoyment of the game and in my opinion fosters a community i don't really look forward to. So yes quite often when such an arguement is made i will argue against it. For exactly the same reasons people argue for it :P

In the end it is pretty much moot, Turbine will make their decisions based on the numbers they see.

[Minquinn]

Stereotyping at it's finest.

Some people just solo because there are so many A-Holes who call people noobs. Only way for someone to learn at times (if new to MMORPG games) is to be in a group. Hard to be in a group when you kicked, or uninvited simply because you know less then everyone. Your supposed "group gamers" now do not like to pub with raids anymore and only stay within their kinship, so how do you expect any soloer to do anything but solo since everyone is being selfish jerks. Yes I do see people, kind kinships an groups who pub and help to try and teach new people, yet what I have observed from making a character on every server (then deleting due to not liking it because of community) that's only 25% (personal assumption) if people. The rest are verbally abusive bullies who think you have to be a elite gamer do to anything with them. People just don't like having fun anymore unless they are with pros. So expect more solo-able content till people can grow up and be mature.

Simply finding a kinship solves this problem. And if your kinship treats you like this, you joined the wrong one.

[Eliahnus]

Also suppose that the "Let's solo an MMO." people play once a week, or less.

You could not be more wrong. There is absolutely no connection between 'solo' and 'playing once a week', none whatsoever.

[Minquinn]

Um... the OP said that "MMO solo is an oxymoron", implied that casual soloers were rare, suggested that a reasonable assumption is that we log in once a week, etc.

Besides, I have never said (nor implied) that raiders should be "banned", or any such thing. Nor that Turbine should do zero raids, ever. I just said that raiders are a smallish group consuming the most expensive content in the game, and that it makes sense for Turbine to try and broaden the scope of expensive content. Is that really so controversial?

Khafar

Admitting that Turbine would rather not develop expensive content is not painting the game in a good light. How do you think a new player reads that? It makes sense to broadened the scope of xpacs but at the same time we should not be getting less and less quality and quantity with each xpac.

Going back to the minority everytime: "smallish group consuming the most expensive content in the game". When you are continually called a minority the natural reaction is to defend oneself. Maybe people like the op are tired of hearing this in every single group related thread.