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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by commodore1 View Post
    ...
    Remember Mounted Combat? that was the last big change... it was suppose to revolutionize the way combat was to take place...It was and is still a nightmare with very little content to use it on. Will skill trees be any better? Will they work at all? Will the population run away from skill trees as fast as MC has died?
    the problem is, you can avoid mounted combat if you don't like it, or you lag too much.
    the revised skill trees you cannot avoid at all...

    @Gromit: yeah, that would be my hope too!

  2. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Dunford View Post
    I personally feel that the excuses of 'making the classes easier from the beginning' and 'reducing homogenization of classes' are a load of manure.
    Forcing characters down a tree structure and limiting skills to specific trees make classes MORE homogenous because every player is going to be forced into cookie cutter builds.

    The real reason IMO is that it makes content design easier because there are LESS configurations for each class due to the limitations imposed by a tree based skill system.
    As much as I abhor change, especially when an established game says "up yours" to existing players, in favor of making something easier for new players,
    I think you'll find "mix & match" will be available on your trait trees, just as it is now available on the war steeds. That said, I still think it's the height of
    stupidity to tell your entire player base "You have to learn how to play this game all over again", just so they can possibly drag in a few new players with
    a very old play setup...

    Considering how wonderfully the last few updates have went and the immediate lack of real communication, to explain what got broken each time, I am not
    holding out much hope this one won't be a disaster as well. Between these issues, all the changes on the way and what seems like apathy towards the
    community, where information is concerned, I have stopped myself from pre-ordering so far. I just can't shake this sense of foreboding that seems to be
    looming over this release. Don't get me wrong, I love the game and want to keep playing, but some of the blatant errors, combined with how our concerns
    and questions were ignored when we repeatedly asked for info about said errors, just really gives me pause.

    That said, I do appreciate all the work done to correct issues that come up, but I don't appreciate being kept in the dark about those issues for as long as
    we were, or the fact that things we were promised haven't been delivered. The lack of communication seriously gets old after a few years...

  3. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Aidus View Post
    To be blunt some of the classes have become broken. Either they can do everything at once or they is really only one of their roles truly effectively. I mean when was the last time someone took a Hunter on a run for its CC. Additionally for some classes the legendary traits are meh by level 85. I would toss out two of my hunters if I could trait deeper into the blue or red builds.

    The idea is the each class can only effectively operate in one of their roles at a time. Still do them all just not all at once, sounds like it might actually be a good idea. In SoA you didn't see 5/6 need anything very often... Now pretty regularly.
    This is exactly why I'm not opposing. Several classes can only fill one role, while others are all over the place. Some even seem to struggle to have a purpose, if you look at how they fit in current content.

    Every class should at least have 2 roles they can fill effectively, in my opinion. Effectively as in fully rounded dps-trees, where you can choose between both AoE- and ST-skills, to but points in.

    Even if Lotro is easy enough to solo for any class, there is still a huge difference in solo-ability and effectiveness at higher levels in PvE. Compare Captain with a heal stacking, anti stunned AoE-monster like Loremaster, for example. Or ST-restricted Burglars preparing and setting up fights (also a joke mounted) with a bubble-spamming and self healing dps-beast like Champion. Its like comparing bicycles with a sports cars, in terms of solo convenience. I have 5 classes at level cap, all geared out. The lack of balance is striking.

    The game is going more and more towards solo content. I find it sad, while others are happy about it. That is a different discussion. Point is, every class should have the ability to trait for an equally competitive and effective solo spec now.

    There is also these junk skills, traits and legendary cap stones, that no one is using. It needs to be cleaned up.

    I'm not sure the developers will make it work. Heck, they might not even share my concerns. Maybe they care very little about class dynamics in groups and just want to simplify stuff for new players? But as long as my Minstrel gets to be something more than indestructible heal bot, my Captain gets a solo boost, my Loremaster finds a reason to care about pets again, than I am happy.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Traur View Post
    As long as one loadout is better than others 90% of gamers will go for that setup.
    Maybe. I'm almost never in that 90%, though... I value "fun" over "optimal load-out" every time. That's why every single character I had in Asheron's Call took a skill which contributed nothing to combat ("Lockpick") and my favorite character didn't have the game's single "must have" skill (Life Magic) at all. I valued different things than many players, and don't really care what anyone else thinks of my choices.

    "Optimal loadout" has no entertainment value for me on its own. In fact, whenever I've tried the "optimal template" in past games, I've lost interest in those characters quite a bit earlier. They're easier, for one thing. And it just rubs me the wrong way to be one of the lemmings.

    If they reduce the number of skills but make each one more impactful, I might enjoy these changes. Why? Because I may be able to build a nice hybrid that I enjoy, even if 90% of the other players go for the "clone effect" (which is often "max specialization", something I never do).

    Khafar

  5. #55
    My personal opinion is that they're doing this to 1) monetize the bards and 2) optimize/streamline their ability to add expansions in relation to class balance and skills. They've already done this with item - the cut over to 2 and 4 set bonuses, so now they're moving to a similiar way to add the next what, 2 to 3 expansions and not have to revisit class balance every time. We'll have to see how it works out, and I'm sure there'll be tweeks, but I'm betting this is the idea.

    And I have to say I completely disagree about this dumbing things down, or forcing folks into cookie cutter builds - we have that now. I've sat in Rohan and inspected folks of my class to see what traits folks run, and 90% of the time it's the same or close to the same for toons of the same class. Very little distinction from build to build, if any at all. Was also instructed when my first toon reached level cap as I was going into my first runs about how I should retrait for optimal performance.

  6. #56
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    I think its finally time to remove the game-breaking classes from the game... Classes that can faceroll solo 3-man content, solo skraids, solo 50-60 mobs at a time... Classes that can do everything at once...And i think its time for Turbine to apologize to everyone, especially to the creeps for the warden...

    I think turbine recognized what they done early on, but needed time to think of solutions....

    I can already hear the qq from all those over-privileged classes so used to this toddler game difficulty and their god-mode status...
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  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by zagreb000 View Post
    especially to the creeps for the warden...
    :O

    warden is the most balanced class in the game!!!

    content is designed to be facerolled. thats why it's an MMO!!!!

    no one FORCEING you to group!!!

    if you think content is too easy then do instances naked and only play with only 1 hand!!!

    how dare you say that the PvMP is broken cos of freeps!!!

    PvMP is clearly broken because creeps have healing classes that HAVE MORE MORAL THAN FREEPS DO!!!!

    ....

    I wanted to have a go at being irrational. forging pointless arguements that reduces the brain cell so anyone who understands the game. I felt stupid. I don't understand why people have such crazed emotional rants with no reason. I don't fear the loss of players, or even boring cookie cutter classes. I fear every single time I see globallff for the next year+ will have these emotional, irrational, pointless rants.
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  8. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Yulin-Gladden View Post
    My personal opinion is that they're doing this to 1) monetize the bards and 2) optimize/streamline their ability to add expansions in relation to class balance and skills. They've already done this with item - the cut over to 2 and 4 set bonuses, so now they're moving to a similiar way to add the next what, 2 to 3 expansions and not have to revisit class balance every time. We'll have to see how it works out, and I'm sure there'll be tweeks, but I'm betting this is the idea.

    And I have to say I completely disagree about this dumbing things down, or forcing folks into cookie cutter builds - we have that now. I've sat in Rohan and inspected folks of my class to see what traits folks run, and 90% of the time it's the same or close to the same for toons of the same class. Very little distinction from build to build, if any at all. Was also instructed when my first toon reached level cap as I was going into my first runs about how I should retrait for optimal performance.
    Agreed. And it makes sense because there is only 2-3 more expansions before the built-in end of the game.

    On the builds, my experience is the same. The traits people used were almost completely homogenous. The only thing different between me and every other tank warden out there was what lucky gear drops they had had. Traits were exactly the same. And so were virts. If they get it right there at least might be 3 viable group specs for each class. Because many of them only had one, and that is well worth changing.
    100 Warden / RK / LM / Captain / Guardian / Hunter / Burg / Champ / Minstrel
    Brandywine

  9. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyveil View Post
    The game has plenty of complexity in how you build out your character (and still will with the trees) and with a reasonable number of skills. Creeps have it about right. 4-5+ skill bars of active skills is too much. This will lead to much more enjoyable gameplay for 90% of the playerbase.
    I guess I'm in the 10% (tho I'm sure there is a much higher %) that like a bit of aoe and self-healing with their berserker champ - something that seems not an option if skills are going to be buried in trees. My guess is that you'll only get enough skill points to fill one tree, so putting points in other trees is not an option if you want a specific high level skill (eg ferocious attack). This is not going to make the game in any way more enjoyable - losing skills I constantly use (eg whirlwind / bracing attack). Also, I take it we will need to create 3 skill trees to complete each classes skill deeds? We only get two free ones. I take it we can ditch a temporary tree, so we can complete class skill deeds without buying the third tree?

  10. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by zagreb000 View Post
    No, it will be an option... "a bit" will be available... What wont be available are champ dps monsters that can fully sustain themselves with heals.. No more skraid soloing for them... If you keep classes as they are you no longer need to label instances as 3,6,12 man, if one person playing a self-sustaining class can beat it..

    Are people so self centered that they care more about how this will inconvenience them instead of being glad that the game will avoid being completely broken thank to these changes....

    Dont you guys see that most classes are horribly op for anything outside a few raids... It makes grouping a necessity only if you want to make farming quicker..Its game breaking..
    Whoa - why feel the need to add an insulting sweeping inference to those who have a differing opinion?

  11. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by zagreb000 View Post
    The only thing most complainers in threads on this topic ever discuss is how they will be personally inconvenienced... Hats of to the exceptions, but almost no one considers the greater picture...

    And thats how these changes affect the game as a whole..

    See i dont have an issue with differing opinions but i do with such self-centered approach to things....

    (Derp: stupid Turbine, i want to be good at healing, dpsing, cc all at the same time.. Well Bu-hu, you cant because then the game suffers...)
    Excuse me - do you know me? Are you stalking me? No? Then I take extreme exception to you infering I'm self-centred.

  12. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by zagreb000 View Post
    Woah, we've got a live one here....

    In order to recognize a self-centered approach i do not necessarily need to know you...

    When you see someone acting like a jerk you dont really need to know him, just so you can be right when saying that he is acting in such a way...

    Same applies here.
    I'd like to take the bait, but am mindful of community guidelines - you may want to take a look

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by zagreb000 View Post
    It makes grouping a necessity only if you want to make farming quicker..
    That's an exaggeration, but even if you were correct... so what? Why does grouping need to be a "necessity"? I have no objection at all to people grouping if that's what they want to do, but there's absolutely nothing wrong with people being able to solo overlevelled group content. In fact, I wish LOTRO were more like TOR in that regard - by they time you're 9 levels over in that game, you can solo pretty much solo anything aimed at a group of any size. The reason is that MOBs that far below you have a fairly hard time hitting you, and cannot inflict as much damage when they do. It's not a cake-walk, and it may take a long time to complete, but it's doable. Back in alpha, LOTRO was like that at one point, and I liked it better that way.

    The rewards aren't usually hugely meaningful when you're that far over level, but it's still fun to go back and do stuff you missed along the way. Nothing wrong (or "selfish") with that at all.

    Khafar

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by zagreb000 View Post
    Im sure you dont think that a new instance labeled, a 6-man, should be easily completed by a single player... That is what i have an issue with.
    I doubt that's common, but even if some guy manages to do it... I'm not sure that's a disaster. Probably means he cheesed it somehow, and that should be fixable. The real issue is if 6 average players with average equipment can faceroll it. If they can, it means the content is too easy (which is again, fixable) - not that the characters are overpowered.

    Turbine cannot and should not be designing these things to be some huge challenge to 6 of the most skilled players, so that case isn't worth worrying about.

    Khafar
    Last edited by Khafar; Sep 23 2013 at 02:01 AM.

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khafar View Post
    I doubt that's common, but even if some guy manages to do it... I'm not sure that's a disaster. Probably means he cheesed it somehow, and that should be fixable. The real issue is if 6 average players with average equipment can faceroll it. If they can, it means the content is too easy - not that the characters are overpowered.

    Turbine cannot and should not be designing these things to be some huge challenge to 6 of the most skilled players, so that case isn't worth worrying about.

    Khafar
    Hmm.. I do agree the content is too easy.. Thats besides the point... But in addition to content being easy, you have some classes that are over the top powerful.. I dont know if you are familiar with what a warden can do, but i have sat through school being soloed by a warden that pulled at least 50 mobs at once... Thats what im talking about...

    Some classes being more or less self sustainable in situations in which they should not be.. Doing 3-mans solo used to be hard business, and you couldn't beat them all.. Now any player of certain class can do it... For some classes they are still hard...

    Its a dual problem.. Content too easy, and some classes just too powerful.

    Here is a link to a champ soloing a lvl 85 skraid.. https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...Skraid-in-solo
    Being able to do that is game breaking to me....
    Last edited by zagreb000; Sep 23 2013 at 02:23 AM.
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  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by zagreb000 View Post
    HI dont know if you are familiar with what a warden can do...
    Not for a few years - mine is still level 65. Back when I was playing him more, he had pretty awesome survivability (which I don't really see as a "problem", per se, since that's a primary strength of the class), but he simply couldn't dish out damage very fast. Not compared with my Hunters. Or my RK.

    I don't buy the idea that every class should be equally good at every type of content. Doesn't bother me a bit if one class can solo a 3-man instance while another can't. What I like is if each class has some strong advantages, and some tradeoffs (weaknesses). My Hunters are easily my fastest leveling characters, for example, between their ability to kill quickly and at range, and their ability to get to most anywhere on the map in a hurry. Yet if they have to take on a medium-sized group of opponents at once, the induction interruptions are a major issue... even with some CC to reduce it. Yet my Champ would just laugh at the same group on his way to slaying them. All fine by me.

    Here is a link to a champ soloing a lvl 85 skraid.. https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...Skraid-in-solo
    I'll watch it later. If he cheesed it somehow, they can fix the content. If not, maybe Champ needs some tweaking. But if he's significantly better at soloing groups of MOBs than my Hunter or my RK is... that's pretty much as I'd expect.

    Khafar

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khafar View Post
    I'll watch it later. If he cheesed it somehow, they can fix the content. If not, maybe Champ needs some tweaking. But if he's significantly better at soloing groups of MOBs than my Hunter or my RK is... that's pretty much as I'd expect.

    Khafar

    Cheese a 12-man raid haha... You can cheese a 3-man, whatever that means... Anything above that shows what i mean when i say that "something is rotten in the state of Denmark"

    I really need to learn these new american expressions ...
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  18. #68
    I think that most of the classe have grown too strong in the last years. They can remove corruptions, interrupt, CC, Remove some kind of wounds, poison.... and have a strong emergency skill. So Turbine faced the problem, that everybody would expect new skills on the way to 95 making the char much stronger. The game would become much easier as it allready is. So there was the idea to specialize without being a god like warrior. We will see if this will we a success.

    And the process of getting the traits was really not the best. There where many skills which you had to use over 600 times for the traits. Even exotic skills which you won´t use offen.

  19. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Hordvin View Post
    And the process of getting the traits was really not the best. There where many skills which you had to use over 600 times for the traits. Even exotic skills which you won´t use offen.
    You will still need to spam the skills but instead of getting the trait you will get another point to spend on your build.

    What if some of the skills you need to use to get the points are locked in the trait trees then you will need to build your class a certain way to unlock the skill just so you can spam it a few times each day to reach the daily limit. Given that you can only have 2 builds without spending any TP/Mithril coins you will need to keep resetting one build to get the skills from other trees each day.

    Also why not give everyone 3 build slots for free, or even have the 3rd one free for VIP's as an added perk of subbing.

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by zagreb000 View Post
    I really need to learn these new american expressions ...
    Sorry about the slang. I basically meant that if there's some exploit people can use to attack from relative safety, to cause far more damage than usual, etc... those can be fixed.

    Khafar

  21. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Stax81 View Post
    Turbine, why the hell would you change the game. This game was an amazing game I could play and never (Until now) have to worry about the way it was running being changed. It's just complete idiocy, you're just going to most likely kill your game. Just like Runescape has done, by trying to 'Compete' with other MMORPGS you have forgotten what was important to LOTROS success, the Opinion of your players, and what they wanted. Perhaps before implementing a ######## system, perhaps freaking ask the players in a poll, not just say 'Specs to focus on one thing' But a complete outline, such as

    For the captain, you are given 3 options They all specalise in differnt things, some focus on healing, two handed swords, and damage for example.

    Each has these skillls/traits. These traits do this.


    It's just complete idiocy to change a near perfect system, Sure some people may not like it, but I've heard from over 200 people in the beta that they HATE the system. I understand entirly what you're trying to do.

    If you didn't want a LM to be de buffing, healing, CC, dps etc why the hell include those skills when you first made it? Don't just change it now because a couple children complain in MP it's too hard. Instead of taking away the fun for the Freeps side, simply increase the Creeps health. By like 20-50K hp, this not only makes it harder, but I believe it would make it 5000x more fun, challanging and promotes more teamwork. I mean chances are with this update you'll go from hundreds of thousands logging in a day across all servers.

    Sure, Specs may work out in the long run. I personally see what you're trying to do and could get used to it. But it's just silly that you would change the game so much, just for new players.

    They can learn the class through playing it and Kins, I mean that's what kins were put into the game for was to back each other up, help each other etc.



    And another thing, why the hell do you keep closing the freaking beta, I've been trying to get on for like 3 days and it's logged me in loaded the game, then said 'Server is closed...'


    Long and short of this, I do not support the idiocy decisions to put specs in, stop trying to compete with other games. This game is more unique than any other MMORPG that I have played. If these specs are released I'll be going somewhere else.

    Perhaps you should put a poll up to determine if you change to the GOOD system.
    Perhaps you should stop assuming that everyone hates these changes. Certainly there is a vocal population that does, but I'm excited for them and think they are long overdue, as do many folks I play with.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/06203000000062b16/signature.png]Eldrenath[/charsig]

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by scrumtrelescent View Post
    Perhaps you should stop assuming that everyone hates these changes. Certainly there is a vocal population that does, but I'm excited for them and think they are long overdue, as do many folks I play with.

    Perhaps you should read the post. I asked 225-300 people what they thought, and about 200 of them said they hated it, Very few said they liked it... less than 20 and about 50 said, it needs Alot of work and more customization.

    This isn't about Your opinion... I'm more concerned about the games well-fare not your opinion.

    They need to keep it original, not change it to try to compete because that will be the downfall of Lotro.

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stax81 View Post
    Perhaps you should read the post. I asked 225-300 people what they thought, and about 200 of them said they hated it, Very few said they liked it... less than 20 and about 50 said, it needs Alot of work and more customization.

    They need to keep it original, not change it to try to compete because that will be the downfall of Lotro.
    What people did you talk to? I talked to 425-500 people and about 403 said they loved it... Your people should meet my people... Dont worry, none of them really care about the NDA..

    To clarify: I think you are full of it....

    Quote Originally Posted by Stax81 View Post
    "This isn't about Your opinion... "
    ... Ok so its not about his opinion but it is about the opinion of others who agree with your opinion?

    I think your logicification is broken...
    Last edited by zagreb000; Sep 24 2013 at 02:35 PM.
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  24. #74
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    I have always had a special place in my heart for LotRO. Everytime I take a hiatus to play another game I always seem to come back and continue my trek to level cap. Which I still have yet to accomplish...I'm that casual. Anyways, I for one am excited about these changes. Interested to see how things work and how much effort Turbine has put into the new system.

    If you look at previous MMOs and their respective companies whenever they changed/revamped their abilities systems there would always be people completely against it. Just something you have to sift through. Let the haters hate, and let the other wonderful people enjoy LotRO as it truly is an amazing game and will continue to be when Helm's Deep launches.

  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stax81 View Post

    And another thing, why the hell do you keep closing the freaking beta, I've been trying to get on for like 3 days and it's logged me in loaded the game, then said 'Server is closed...'
    So I take it this is just a safety (2nd) account (2 posts since September, both in this thread) from which you post BETA info on the Public Forums instead of BETA Forums?
    [size=-2]Gladden: Sulherok (HNT100) Woodworker; Soradoc (GRD100) Jeweler; Saelind (LM100) Tailor; Tinuvaraen (MIN100) Scholar; Silmathryth (CAP98) Metalsmith; Harlequina (BRG37) Weaponsmith; Ghâmim (RK36) Cook; Elindurion (20WRD) Woodworker; Balarella (13HNT)[/size]

 

 
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