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  1. #1

    Question Motivation behind class changes

    Hello!

    The request is quite simple really: to fully understand the motivation behind class traits and skills changes.

    I've spent 7 years with skills and traits, which, to my understanding, have been working quite OK. Trait system was something quite original and deep. Now the move to skill trees seem like a strange choice. Skill trees (at least for me personally) seem to be something of an outdated design solution. They also push towards narrow specialisation (which also doesn't look good to me).

    Maybe I could get an answer based on the opinion, post or explanation by the development team member(s), why this had to be changed? It would be important to understand the direction the game is taking (changing how all classes and their skills work is actually a huge thing, all people should realise that), especially with the preorder at hand.

    Thank you for your time in advance!

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Maen View Post
    Hello!

    The request is quite simple really: to fully understand the motivation behind class traits and skills changes.

    I've spent 7 years with skills and traits, which, to my understanding, have been working quite OK. Trait system was something quite original and deep. Now the move to skill trees seem like a strange choice. Skill trees (at least for me personally) seem to be something of an outdated design solution. They also push towards narrow specialisation (which also doesn't look good to me).

    Maybe I could get an answer based on the opinion, post or explanation by the development team member(s), why this had to be changed? It would be important to understand the direction the game is taking (changing how all classes and their skills work is actually a huge thing, all people should realise that), especially with the preorder at hand.

    Thank you for your time in advance!
    Turbine already pointed out why are they doing this.

    In short: They want to give new players choice to trait in all 3 ways from start of the game (atm some trait lines work only when you get moria legandaries and 5 traits from the line) and they want to make classes devoted to the role they selected, no more everyone can do everything at the same time (example: LM can heal, debuff, dps and cc.. not all roles they do perfectly but they can still do them, or Champion that can take 15k+ dmg in small period of time and be full morale with bubbles, dire need, bracing attack adamant.. dont think champions are made for healing)

  3. #3
    Thank you for your answer, if it is really true, that's going into different direction I would want it to go. All the class and trait quests was a nice touch, and getting your legendary felt like a nice achievement (it was also nicely weaved with stories and lore).

    Narrow specialisation, both in life and games, is boring thing of the past IMO, but maybe that's just me

    Do you have any links or citations how exactly it was worded by devs?

  4. #4
    https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...-Class-Changes

    Q11: Raven-EU: What was the primary driver(s) for this change? #LOTRO
    A11: Jinjaah: I think there were two main things that drove these changes: #LOTRO
    A11a: 1. We wanted to design the trait trees in such a way that as soon as you leave the intro, #LOTRO
    A11b: your trait line starts to play as it was envisioned instead of later on down the road when you began to collect traits. #LOTRO
    A11c: 2. We really wanted each trait line to sort of stand out from the rest and reduce some of the class homogenization #LOTRO
    A11d: that had slowly occurred over the years. #LOTRO

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Maen View Post
    Thank you for your answer, if it is really true, that's going into different direction I would want it to go. All the class and trait quests was a nice touch, and getting your legendary felt like a nice achievement (it was also nicely weaved with stories and lore).

    Narrow specialisation, both in life and games, is boring thing of the past IMO, but maybe that's just me

    Do you have any links or citations how exactly it was worded by devs?
    Class quests and trait deeds will remain in game, they will just give trait points instead of class traits they give now. Im not sure about legendaries but i believe they will give trait points too. Legendaries will be part of trait trees now.

  6. #6
    I think the real answer is the same reason they changed the character sheet (which I'm still not used to). They want to get WoW players.

  7. #7
    Not a fan of change for the sake of change, especially after the last 4 1/2 years.

  8. #8
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    Yes, Turbine has decided to move 'forward' by reducing choice, limiting abilities and forcing players into narrower skill trees. Basically a great step forward to the Diablo style introduced in 1996. Then LotRO will be an even more homogenised MMO clone just like all the other out there. Of course it can't compete with newer games that do the same things better and is unaware of how they are alienating even more of their fanbase, but then Turbine/WB are not exactly known living in the real world.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celebrawn View Post
    Not a fan of change for the sake of change, especially after the last 4 1/2 years.
    Yeh, one peek at this waste of resources and I want to scream rather than cream.

    Zero master plan, just stimulus/response without the flexibility. Pff.

  10. #10
    By the time these changes come out I will have played for six years. One of the things I have always loved about Lotro is the fact that among gear, stats, traits, deeds, LI's, leveling, crafting, etc etc I did not have to worry about allocating and spending skill points. Going back to the old single player rpg's ie FF I have always found skill points to be annoying, the Dev's reasoning for the changes is understandable, there are too many classes doing too many things. I will wait and see how it works, and hopefully this will not change the core of the gaemplay in Lotro.

  11. #11
    I believe the motivation for the changes are to make the game more appealing to new players and also to address the balance of the classes.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Iluvatardd View Post
    ... and they want to make classes devoted to the role they selected, no more everyone can do everything at the same time (example: LM can heal, debuff, dps and cc.. not all roles they do perfectly but they can still do them, or Champion that can take 15k+ dmg in small period of time and be full morale with bubbles, dire need, bracing attack adamant.. dont think champions are made for healing)
    Perfectly said
    And since a LOT of people like to faceroll, when the class changes come you'll see a lot of QQ at forums and in-game, and a drop in the player populations (what i know, if Turbine do the update right, the game will recover real fast, or even get more players if the battle system become challenging like Turbine said).
    Things are just stupid now, all this OP classes, make the landscape and PvP so easy and boring.
    And i'll not say much about the PvP faceroll, when you need 4 creeps to kill a full geared mini (they're light armours and finish a battle with full morale while hitting you hard). This is why Turbine are revamping the class, players are complaining about faceroll so now they'll need to think and read their traits and learn how to play (since the first levels), and not just press buttons and click the godmode skills when you're dying (AKA never surrender, bubbles, dire need, last stand, 3 stacks of water lore, winsdow if the council) while doing a lot of dps and finish every single fight (in landscape or PvP) with full morale after killing 5 NPCs/2 (or more) creeps at the same time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maen View Post
    Thank you for your answer, if it is really true, that's going into different direction I would want it to go. All the class and trait quests was a nice touch, and getting your legendary felt like a nice achievement (it was also nicely weaved with stories and lore).
    Probably Turbine will keep the legendary and class quests with all of their lore, but just giving you points when you complete (instead of traits) to spend at the trait trees.

    Quote Originally Posted by podgie_bear View Post
    Yes, Turbine has decided to move 'forward' by reducing choice, limiting abilities and forcing players into narrower skill trees.
    Maybe is just me, but IMO this means: Challenge, i'll not be able to just aggro 6 mobs 2 levels over me and kill them all with full morale, cause if i focus DPS i'll losse all that OP heal i had.
    The complainings about not being able to do more than one role remember me from a friend playing Skyrim with a archer using heavy armour, it's weird IMO.
    And every class will have 3 trait lines, i bet there'll be a lot of choices if you know where to spend your points. We need to wait, see, test, retest before criticize.

    Quote Originally Posted by medwulf View Post
    ... the Dev's reasoning for the changes is understandable, there are too many classes doing too many things. I will wait and see how it works, and hopefully this will not change the core of the gaemplay in Lotro.
    You already said the reason, they're changing cause too many classes do too many things, they want every class doing one single traited role, this is why LOTRO have 9 classes, if they wanted everyone being abble to tank/heal/DPS/debuff they would just made a single class.
    Last edited by Snabur; Sep 16 2013 at 10:02 AM.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Maen View Post
    Thank you for your answer, if it is really true, that's going into different direction I would want it to go. All the class and trait quests was a nice touch, and getting your legendary felt like a nice achievement (it was also nicely weaved with stories and lore).

    Narrow specialisation, both in life and games, is boring thing of the past IMO, but maybe that's just me

    Do you have any links or citations how exactly it was worded by devs?
    To be blunt some of the classes have become broken. Either they can do everything at once or they is really only one of their roles truly effectively. I mean when was the last time someone took a Hunter on a run for its CC. Additionally for some classes the legendary traits are meh by level 85. I would toss out two of my hunters if I could trait deeper into the blue or red builds.

    The idea is the each class can only effectively operate in one of their roles at a time. Still do them all just not all at once, sounds like it might actually be a good idea. In SoA you didn't see 5/6 need anything very often... Now pretty regularly.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/032020000000bd0ff/signature.png]Aidus[/charsig]

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  14. #14
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    I personally feel that the excuses of 'making the classes easier from the beginning' and 'reducing homogenization of classes' are a load of manure.
    Forcing characters down a tree structure and limiting skills to specific trees make classes MORE homogenous because every player is going to be forced into cookie cutter builds.

    The real reason IMO is that it makes content design easier because there are LESS configurations for each class due to the limitations imposed by a tree based skill system.
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  15. #15
    I hate to break this to the Devs, but there is only 1 way to reduce class homogenization and that is to make everything so vanilla that it doesn't matter what you do. As long as one loadout is better than others 90% of gamers will go for that setup.

    As for champs, I am not sure what they are trying to achieve - there is almost no content in the game today where you significantly benefit from AOE damage, almost every fight in the game where damage output matters is a single target fight or fights where CC is required which renders AOE pretty useless. Everybody and their grandma traits red and since they have been kind enough to make only some of the red traits relevant for DPS, there really isn't much choice.

  16. #16
    My personal belief: they are competing for players from other MMOs.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Traur View Post
    As for champs, I am not sure what they are trying to achieve - there is almost no content in the game today where you significantly benefit from AOE damage, almost every fight in the game where damage output matters is a single target fight or fights where CC is required which renders AOE pretty useless. Everybody and their grandma traits red and since they have been kind enough to make only some of the red traits relevant for DPS, there really isn't much choice.
    AOE makes sense in some cases with the champ. But I've never been in a raid/group where I've thought.. "Gee.. I should trait all yellow for this.."

    Take the "Full pull" method of the school farm for example. Everything from the start up to the door is gathered in a big ol mess and AOE'ed to death (about 20 mobs). If you've got a Warden, Champ and whatever in your group. That Champ's AOE is really nice. Enhanced Battle Acuity + Shwing shwing. But... as you said, red traits still make the most sense.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunford View Post
    I personally feel that the excuses of 'making the classes easier from the beginning' and 'reducing homogenization of classes' are a load of manure.
    Forcing characters down a tree structure and limiting skills to specific trees make classes MORE homogenous because every player is going to be forced into cookie cutter builds.

    The real reason IMO is that it makes content design easier because there are LESS configurations for each class due to the limitations imposed by a tree based skill system.
    *ding ding ding*

    We have a winner.

  19. #19
    I think Id rather see trait trees than the current system.
    One class that is good at everything is too op while other classes are good at much less.
    Trees make players decide which one or two roles they want.
    I cant remember where I read it, but to my understanding, players can pick and choose all class trait trees, but they wont be as good as another that is devoted in just one tree. By the sound of it, classes that can, will still have the option, but wont be as op. Maybe theyll be underpowered.

  20. #20
    Can't wait for them to make all the classes one sided and each have a skill rotation that they stick to, and that's all they can do. It's going to be great! I didn't really like being able to do more than one thing at a time anyway, it was really hard.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gallagade View Post
    Can't wait for them to make all the classes one sided and each have a skill rotation that they stick to, and that's all they can do. It's going to be great! I didn't really like being able to do more than one thing at a time anyway, it was really hard.
    So they're limiting certain skills to certain trait lines, yet everyone of a class will have the same rotation.
    Seems legit.

  22. #22
    Every class role will have roughly the same rotation. Considering you won't be able to double dip without stripping your primary role and have the multitude of skills you can do now, you will be a one sided class that does one thing. So all (insert trait line) (insert class)s will be doing the same rotation. There won't be a discriminate between people that know how to take advantage of their non primary role skills and those who don't.

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Gallagade View Post
    Can't wait for them to make all the classes one sided and each have a skill rotation that they stick to, and that's all they can do. It's going to be great! I didn't really like being able to do more than one thing at a time anyway, it was really hard.
    ...

    ./cry
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gallagade View Post
    So all (insert trait line) (insert class)s will be doing the same rotation.
    you know this how?

    this is different from live how?

    (while there are no core rotations, there are clearly set rules of orders and what happends when) so it sounds like our core class is being nicely split up to 3 sub classes from what your saying.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vexendynamus View Post
    My personal belief: they are competing for players from other MMOs.
    Oh I'm sure that is part of the business plan. WoW is bleeding subscribers and I'm sure LOTRO is not the only MMORPG after a piece of that cake.

    And I think they're doing it in a smart way: Helm's Deep playable from level 10, lure them in with the new class setup and the excellent starting area's and amaze them with what they do actually get for free - take that WoW! Then get them to pay for the expansion and deck them out as premiums on the go.

    Hook, line and sinker.

    That said, the class changes are also very understandable from a game design point of view. The current system has gotten to a point where it has actually become rather convoluted, riddled with 'improved this' and 'improved that'(1) leaving very little ground to build further on, a growing lacking degree of distinction between characters of the same class (2) and a growing homogonization between classes (3).

    (1) and interestingly, some of these 'improved' are worse than the unimproved version
    (2) I run fervour as a champ. So does everybody else except the odd oddball or the PvMP-er
    (3) homogenization is bad. Unless you're making sauces and soups.

 

 
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