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Thread: Classes broken?

  1. #1

    Classes broken?

    Im reading this forums a lot, mostly topics related to new expansion, and what i saw the most is sentence "stop fixing what is not broken". And i was :O

    Lets take a look at our classes atm and see if they really are so good as you guys claim they are. Turbine said they want us to feel the trait lines from the start of the game, lvl 10. Atm however i one out of 3 lines is locked for us until moria basicly, and we cant feel that difference between those lines. Lets take burglar gambler as an example. To have fun as a gambler you need Lucky Strike, blue legendary, and maybe gamble chance legacy or you are just highly nerfed QK burg. There are other classes that are waiting for usefull traits from some trait lines to the levels 40+.

    Another fact is: Most of the players are traited always with same traits. They dont change it for months. Champs, hunters, burglars... Even when you have situations, for champs for example, where they can trait for some aoe, they will still stay in red line and just use a bit more aoe skills. This is broken, imo. Even when you are forced to retrait, with clases like RK, once for healing once for dps, you always select the same traits you had last time you were traited that way. You will select same 7 traits for lighting line that you selected last time when you have been dpsing. And you call that customization? Some traits are useless and some are not. You will just fill the spots with same useful ones that most of the people use.

    You may ask me if this will be the case in HD.. It will be. Difference is, now you will get skills tied to each line and you will need to adjust your skill rotation, or actually use completely different skill set with this line. I think most people just want to keep all the shiny stuff they have and change lame skills for more shiny skills. I dont know why does champ need all that bubbles, dire need, bracing attack and adamant in single target dps line. If he is playing correct, as well as his fellows, he should not be hit. At all. Instead of that give them dps enhancing versions of the skill. If you get aggro, you screwed up, and you deserve to die, because you arent playing good.

    Lets face it, some traits we are not using at all, even some trait lines (blue LM, yellow hunter) because theyre broken. Changing trait lines usually just makes 1-3 skills more/less potent and thats it. We just slightly have to change rotation and thats it.

    One more thing i would like to speak about are "oh ####" skills and selfheals. Only classes in need of those skills are tanks and healers. If you screw up, you get aggro as dpser, you stand in wrong position, you dont cc something, then you and your fellowship has to pay for this, with wipe if its bigger mistake.


    People saying they dont want to learn classes again are making me facepalm too. We are playing this game for fun and we need challenges and new stuff to make us entertained. I saw many complaints about not enough content last two years.. Now turbine is giving us new tools that are offering us testing and exploring new versions of classes, giving us entertainment for months, now you dont want it... just omg. You will have to learn new instances, how they work, what to do etc. How is doing same thing with classes so different?

    Just take changes and adapt, and if you dont like it, or if theres somehting broken, then its time to complain. Atm you have no idea about how classes will work, especially because dev diaries give zero information.
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  2. #2
    Only thing I see that gives me cause for concern is removal of stances. Which seems at least to be the direction they are taking. For warden I am not even sure how they would do it without breaking the class in one way or another. Right now I can change between tanking, melee dps, and range dps at the touch of a button in combat. This is essential to playing a warden or at least to how I play the warden. It would be a pain to have to choose tank, melee, or range before entering combat. Especially with assailments min range issues. If they add a jav builder to fix this issue it would fundamentally alter the class and would require relearning the class. At the very least for many classes the loss of utility that comes from stance removal will fundamentally alter their style of play and at the least require learning a new play style. As a note to turbine there is a serious downside in the form of player morale loss that occurs when information about drastic changes is released in a slow trickle and in a vague form. It is better to say nothing till finalized and then release full information at once for all classes than make the class that starts with 'W' wait 2-3 weeks to learn their fate.
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  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by gelleg View Post
    Only thing I see that gives me cause for concern is removal of stances. Which seems at least to be the direction they are taking. For warden I am not even sure how they would do it without breaking the class in one way or another. Right now I can change between tanking, melee dps, and range dps at the touch of a button in combat. This is essential to playing a warden or at least to how I play the warden. It would be a pain to have to choose tank, melee, or range before entering combat. Especially with assailments min range issues. If they add a jav builder to fix this issue it would fundamentally alter the class and would require relearning the class. At the very least for many classes the loss of utility that comes from stance removal will fundamentally alter their style of play and at the least require learning a new play style. As a note to turbine there is a serious downside in the form of player morale loss that occurs when information about drastic changes is released in a slow trickle and in a vague form. It is better to say nothing till finalized and then release full information at once for all classes than make the class that starts with 'W' wait 2-3 weeks to learn their fate.
    I doubt they will remove stances on warden. They have to give separate builders for all 3 basic gambit builders, not just javelin, because shield and taunt become ranged in assailment. But there are classes that have trait lines and stances very connected and usually they are used together. Examples are champion and burglar, but for warden and hunter i think they will leave stances in game, maybe altered a bit. Im not sure for guards because im not expert in that class.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iluvatardd View Post


    People saying they dont want to learn classes again are making me facepalm too. We are playing this game for fun and we need challenges and new stuff to make us entertained. I saw many complaints about not enough content last two years.. Now turbine is giving us new tools that are offering us testing and exploring new versions of classes, giving us entertainment for months, now you dont want it... just omg. You will have to learn new instances, how they work, what to do etc. How is doing same thing with classes so different?

    Just take changes and adapt, and if you dont like it, or if theres somehting broken, then its time to complain. Atm you have no idea about how classes will work, especially because dev diaries give zero information.
    This isn't the first time Turbine has made major changes to the classes. Looking at your forum join date you probably weren't around for the other changes. After awhile it gets old having to adapt to constant changes because Turbine didn't perform any long term planning for class development. I don't find re-learning class mechanics fun. I find challenging content fun. Is it more fun to play challenging content with a lot of skills and options, or nerf the skills to make average content more challenging?
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    Quote Originally Posted by robo7425 View Post
    I don't find re-learning class mechanics fun.
    I do, but to each his own. It is a little odd that this game (which said pretty explicitly it was out to appeal to casual gamers) has so many skills... often 3+ toolbar's worth. I suspect part of the "rework" is simplification, which will of course drive some of the hardcore gamers batty.

    What would make me happy is A) fewer skills in a set, but B) with more flexibility... more skills to select from, even if they're weaker versions of other class skills. I've never really liked "class" systems all that much, and would like to be able to create more hybrids. FFXI had a system of jobs (primary role) and subjobs (secondary role) I liked a fair amount, because it lead to much experimentation by players, something I found to be great fun. Yes, people came up with "optimal templates", but so what? Min/maxers will always do that. I go my own way.

    Anyway, I'll reserve judgement until I've actually played with the changes for a while. I might wind up hating them, as some here seem eager to do. But I might wind up liking them a good deal. That may vary by class, of course .

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    First +rep for OP...

    cant agree more... The issues you brought up were a major problem in pvp which i believe will be fixed this time around... I prefer specialization to class versatility like in some classes like Minis, Lms, champs and wardens... Because of the "god mode" direction some classes took you had creeps complaining all the time, rightfully, and completely broken 3 man content... Ive seen wardens pull whole instances of mobs (up to 50-60 in school and lib) and solo them... Champs soloing raid skirmishes... At this time some classes can do everything at the same time (dps, heal, tank) leaving classes like guardians and burglars obsolete except in some raid situations....

    I think Turbine realized this and for once i look forward to the changes....
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  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Iluvatardd View Post
    Another fact is: Most of the players are traited always with same traits. They dont change it for months. Champs, hunters, burglars... Even when you have situations, for champs for example, where they can trait for some aoe, they will still stay in red line and just use a bit more aoe skills. This is broken, imo.
    Is that not just personal play style preference?

    Quote Originally Posted by Iluvatardd View Post
    Even when you are forced to retrait, with clases like RK, once for healing once for dps, you always select the same traits you had last time you were traited that way. You will select same 7 traits for lighting line that you selected last time when you have been dpsing. And you call that customization? Some traits are useless and some are not. You will just fill the spots with same useful ones that most of the people use.
    How are trees going to solve this? You will have skills you still don't necessarily want in the tree you choose, and tanks and heals will always be changing for DPS or heal or tank roles. People will just go for the same skills on the line they with trees, as they will with buffet traits. A DPS RK who chose all the DPS traits before will just do the same again, to get the maximum productivity, or to continue in a similar play style. Okay, not everyone will go exactly the same, but I can see trees just being another way to give the same issues we already have, not "fix" them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Iluvatardd View Post
    Changing trait lines usually just makes 1-3 skills more/less potent and thats it. We just slightly have to change rotation and thats it.
    Not for guards, there are some big changes going from DPS to tank/surviving lines. (There are threads in the Guard forum about how people feel the devs got it wrong. A side point, yes, but just using it to illustrate the differenes.)

    I don't inherently disagree with you, I just don't see some of your points the same way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RSmuppet View Post
    You will have skills you still don't necessarily want in the tree you choose, and tanks and heals will always be changing for DPS or heal or tank roles. People will just go for the same skills on the line they with trees, as they will with buffet traits. A DPS RK who chose all the DPS traits before will just do the same again, to get the maximum productivity, or to continue in a similar play style. Okay, not everyone will go exactly the same, but I can see trees just being another way to give the same issues we already have, not "fix" them.
    Do you think that Minis will still be a 5 second click away from being a dps with amazing self heals and survivability... Do you think wardens will still be able to dps really well and tank 4-6 creeps or 10-15 mobs at the same time? Will champs be able to aoe and self heal, needing little or no heals in 6 man content or pvp? LMs doing massive dps and healing themselves at the same time as effectively? This is what these changes are bringing IMO... Balance and a clear, maybe even slightly forced choice of what you want to do in a given situation....

    EDITi see now you are discussing something different, my observations stand but are not connected to your topic so disregard)

    Quote Originally Posted by RSmuppet View Post
    Not for guards, there are some big changes going from DPS to tank/surviving lines. (There are threads in the Guard forum about how people feel the devs got it wrong. A side point, yes, but just using it to illustrate the differenes.)
    Guards are the class with possibly the lowest level of versatility at this moment.. When you choose the red line, you cant do absolutely nothing except dps and your dps is not even close to other dps classes.. Your survivability is severely gimped and you have close to none self heals... Guardians are now a sign of what to expect with class changes.. And thats balance..
    Last edited by zagreb000; Sep 15 2013 at 02:30 PM.
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Iluvatardd View Post
    One more thing i would like to speak about are "oh ####" skills and selfheals. Only classes in need of those skills are tanks and healers. If you screw up, you get aggro as dpser, you stand in wrong position, you dont cc something, then you and your fellowship has to pay for this, with wipe if its bigger mistake.


    People saying they dont want to learn classes again are making me facepalm too. We are playing this game for fun and we need challenges and new stuff to make us entertained. I saw many complaints about not enough content last two years.. Now turbine is giving us new tools that are offering us testing and exploring new versions of classes, giving us entertainment for months, now you dont want it... just omg. You will have to learn new instances, how they work, what to do etc. How is doing same thing with classes so different?

    Just take changes and adapt, and if you dont like it, or if theres somehting broken, then its time to complain. Atm you have no idea about how classes will work, especially because dev diaries give zero information.
    1) You talk about the self heals, and the applies perfectly well in a group, but not everyone online is grouped constantly. I play part solo part with my friends online. As a hunter, It would be nice to have something better than "Press Onward". I appreciate Cry, but it still isnt much compared to every other class...

    2) The second point I quoted above I partially agree with. I think that this will be interesting, and should be more of a wait and see experience, though your asking how is what they are doing to the classes different?
    Some classes (Like the Burg) look to come out really nice and cool. A well done class. But all need to do is look to the cappy. It is the class they made into the game as the "Jack of all Trades". It is fairly good as a tank, Can help with DPS, and its an excellent back up healer. But it has all these because its main purpose is buffing. If you read the diary, it appears as though they are tanking the buff which or so important to a group and making them harder to apply, actually making the cappy worse at its primary job...
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    Quote Originally Posted by robo7425 View Post
    This isn't the first time Turbine has made major changes to the classes. Looking at your forum join date you probably weren't around for the other changes.
    Codemasters used the same game client you know?

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    That's why I said probably, can't always tell how long a players been around anymore.
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  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by robo7425 View Post
    That's why I said probably, can't always tell how long a players been around anymore.
    If the join date is june or july 2011, assume that it's an ex-CM player. The vast majority of everyone joining the Turbine system during those months are most like migrating accounts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cadd_EU View Post
    If the join date is june or july 2011, assume that it's an ex-CM player. The vast majority of everyone joining the Turbine system during those months are most like migrating accounts.
    Thanks for the info. The OP's was may 2011 So he is probably a newer player.
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    Quote Originally Posted by robo7425 View Post
    This isn't the first time Turbine has made major changes to the classes. Looking at your forum join date you probably weren't around for the other changes. After awhile it gets old having to adapt to constant changes because Turbine didn't perform any long term planning for class development. I don't find re-learning class mechanics fun. I find challenging content fun. Is it more fun to play challenging content with a lot of skills and options, or nerf the skills to make average content more challenging?
    This. Exactly and entirely.

    My oldest and first toon, (a champion), I've almost entirely given up on up until HD launches. Every time I went to play it, I'd log in, and it'd be a whole different class. I mean, really, I have no idea the exact number of various class changes there have been at least since I've been around in 2008, but there have been many. I'd learn to play the burg kinda-sorta, then poof. Changed. LM? Changed dramatically. The only one I bothered to relearn was my hunter as it was my 'main'. That, and my recent RK, which thankfully has only been around long enough to go through the last year or so of changes.

    I've also held off on creating any new toons, or levelling any alts, as there is no point in re-learning the class when all of that particular learning is going to be utterly obliterated come Nov 18th. So, I'll just wait until post HD to even bother picking up my Burg or LM again.
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    Quote Originally Posted by robo7425 View Post
    Thanks for the info. The OP's was may 2011 So he is probably a newer player.
    It shows June 2011 for me.

    If it really shows May for you then it would be worth pointing out the display bug to Turbine.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by zagreb000 View Post
    Guards are the class with possibly the lowest level of versatility at this moment.. When you choose the red line, you cant do absolutely nothing except dps and your dps is not even close to other dps classes.. Your survivability is severely gimped and you have close to none self heals... Guardians are now a sign of what to expect with class changes.. And thats balance..
    That's what I was saying, I was trying to demonstrate that guards' lines are totally differing and separate and I feel that's the trade-off you have to make: survivability or damage. My point being that guards' choice of trait actually has a big impact, contrary to what Illuvatard said.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WBS View Post
    It shows June 2011 for me.

    If it really shows May for you then it would be worth pointing out the display bug to Turbine.
    I see June 2011 as well. Actually, I didn't see any May from any poster. Closest was March from the second poster (first reply).
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    It does show a join date as may 2011 on my screen for the OP. Strange.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iluvatardd View Post
    If you get aggro, you screwed up, and you deserve to die, because you arent playing good.

    You had me up until that line. I agree with some of what you say about the traits, but please don't think that a Champ's role, dps or not, is to "not get hit." Imagine a rather bad tank (like me), has joined the fellowship, and has a terrible time keeping aggro. It's the tank's fault, maybe sometimes the healer's, that others die, but you would just make it worse for them by taking away their healing skills. Also, "Only classes in need of those skills are tanks and healers." Just no. Imagine, if you will, a fellowship with a healer that is testing out his/her skills. It's no one's fault the healer is a beginner, but don't make it harder for the fellowship so that a non-tank character, such as a Hunter, can't heal themselves when the healer fails. This is a moot point of course, since from the dev diaries, these skills aren't being taken away, simply moved into certain trait lines.
    That, by the way, also goes against your assertion that the "dev diaries give zero information."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iluvatardd View Post
    Im reading this forums a lot, mostly topics related to new expansion, and what i saw the most is sentence "stop fixing what is not broken". And i was :O

    Turbine said they want us to feel the trait lines from the start of the game, lvl 10. Atm however i one out of 3 lines is locked for us until moria basicly, and we cant feel that difference between those lines.There are other classes that are waiting for usefull traits from some trait lines to the levels 40+.

    Most of the players are traited always with same traits. They dont change it for months.

    Even when you have situations, for champs for example, where they can trait for some aoe, they will still stay in red line and just use a bit more aoe skills. This is broken, imo.

    You may ask me if this will be the case in HD.. It will be. Difference is, now you will get skills tied to each line and you will need to adjust your skill rotation, or actually use completely different skill set with this line. I think most people just want to keep all the shiny stuff they have and change lame skills for more shiny skills. I dont know why does champ need all that bubbles, dire need, bracing attack and adamant in single target dps line. If he is playing correct, as well as his fellows, he should not be hit. At all. Instead of that give them dps enhancing versions of the skill. If you get aggro, you screwed up, and you deserve to die, because you arent playing good.

    Lets face it, some traits we are not using at all, even some trait lines (blue LM, yellow hunter) because theyre broken. Changing trait lines usually just makes 1-3 skills more/less potent and thats it. We just slightly have to change rotation and thats it.

    One more thing i would like to speak about are "oh ####" skills and selfheals. Only classes in need of those skills are tanks and healers. If you screw up, you get aggro as dpser, you stand in wrong position, you dont cc something, then you and your fellowship has to pay for this, with wipe if its bigger mistake.


    People saying they dont want to learn classes again are making me facepalm too. We are playing this game for fun and we need challenges and new stuff to make us entertained. I saw many complaints about not enough content last two years.. Now turbine is giving us new tools that are offering us testing and exploring new versions of classes, giving us entertainment for months, now you dont want it... just omg. You will have to learn new instances, how they work, what to do etc. How is doing same thing with classes so different?

    Just take changes and adapt, and if you dont like it, or if theres somehting broken, then its time to complain. Atm you have no idea about how classes will work, especially because dev diaries give zero information.
    Response is in Point by point format, if it seems disorganized, just see the corresponding point. Also, all "yous, yours, etc." are in a general form, not meant for specific persons. Replace "you" with "one" or "some people" if you disagree. If one disagrees.

    First point: then turbine should make the beginning more customizable, not completely redo the system just to make lower levelled players get new things faster. This is fluff, it gives very little credibility to revamping the system.

    Second: People are traited the same because what they have works, and they have found the optimal build. Don't forget all the trial and error before that, and the retraiting for the adaptation in role. Counter point: And why would people keep on switching their skill tree around if they found their optimal build? You could say that people keep their skill trees the same for months.

    Third: If AoE damage was a priority in the instance, then I'm sure they would bring AoE. A non-optimizing Champ may stay single target and use AoE's, but they are less effective. This argument is comparable to a fellow needing heals, but a minstrel being traited red and healing. It's not efficient, there is a lower chance of success, and it will take longer. If your saying that the mini or champ shouldn't be able to fulfill that role while not traited for it, then maybe the CONTENT is too easy.

    Fourth: Ok, you recognize its the same. Then why make all those prior arguments? If the "correct" way to play is not to dip into skills that aren't your primary role, then why not play something where you have 3 classes (each point of the combat triangle) and each class has 1 skill: Heal, tank, dps. We should be able to adapt to changes in a situation. Besides, consider opportunity cost. When you're using a bubble, you aren't dpsing, and therefore have shifted your role for the time being to damage absorption.

    Fifth: Blue LM's are built for your pet and healing. It isn't used as much because because there are other classes that can heal better, and pets don't make a difference in groups. However, when soloing many LM's find that having a pet tanking everything and them healing the pet, while slowly dpsing, is an effective way to play. The blue line serves to adapt to a specific situation. Maybe the fact that that situation does not present itself is what's broken. Maybe you should go out and look for that situation if you want to play blue LM.

    Sixth: See counter third and fourth. What if the "Oh $*!7" Situation is a tank going link dead or getting one-shot? Or the same to a healer? Are players not allowed to adjust and toss a few waterlores, or pop an enamel and start using prelude, or force taunt and smash a bubble?

    Seven: Not wanting to learn is facepalm worthy. Not wanting your class to be revamped is not. I think people who say that really mean they don't want everything taken away from the game they play and another game to be spit out. It can look, and even feel similar, but it is not the game that they enjoy playing now. A class revamp is not new content. If you wanted the class revamp and major change in gameplay that Turbine is shelling out with HD, you simply would have played a game with the system Turbine is switching to. They're out there. People who say that they don't want to learn a new class say that they don't want to learn an entirely new game because they like their old one. Would you like to play Ruders of Rohan Champion or Helms Deep Champion? They will be two different games, if you will.

    That point is pretty valid. We don't know how exactly it's going to come out. We just know that the game we have played for the past 5-years is taking a sharp turn. Or past year, for wardens and champs. Its like if you liked the champion from SoA better than you like the Champion now. That play is gone forever. I think all the complaining is people saying how much they enjoy the game now, and that it will suck when that game is gone. No-more.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RSmuppet View Post
    That's what I was saying, I was trying to demonstrate that guards' lines are totally differing and separate and I feel that's the trade-off you have to make: survivability or damage. My point being that guards' choice of trait actually has a big impact, contrary to what Illuvatard said.
    But guards are an exception which is why so many of us complain. Not the rule.. Also the trade-off is really badly done...
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  22. #22
    It has been more than four days since the feedback thread "Developer Diary : Captain Class Changes in Helm’s Deep" was temporarily closed to review posts. (The class changes were so horrendous that players were willing to give up Beta status just to let the public know how terrible they are.) However, the thread has not been re-opened. It has become apparent that Turbine no longer wishes to hear from players regarding the Dev Diary. I cannot help but wonder what this means.
    Is it a sign that major class changes are in the works, so the the Dev Diary no longer applies and Turbine does not need additional feedback until the new revision is in place?
    Or is it that they are not going to make any changes to classes, so they do not want to be bothered with the overwhelming negative feedback?

    Turbine needs to communicate.

    If Turbine is making changes, they should put off the Guardian Dev Diary. Champions and Guardians should have stances so that we can change our role in combat (not do both at the same time, but change). I'm actually kind of surprised there was not already an uproar over Champions losing their ability to make choices in combat.
    -

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    389
    Quote Originally Posted by robo7425 View Post
    It does show a join date as may 2011 on my screen for the OP. Strange.
    I also see a join date of May 2011 on the first post. When I look at the OP's profile, it says a join date of May 31, 2011. I suspect a time zone display issue changes this to June 1 for some people, similar to how dates on the calendar can be off by one day depending on time zone settings.

    Done with the off-topic aside now, please carry on...
    My characters are listed at my [url=http://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/User:Elinnea#LOTRO_Characters]lotro-wiki page[/url].

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    121
    The problem with most of these class revamp posts is they are only considering group play with these changes. I see the bigger issues with those of us that mostly solo the game, and you are forgetting that much of the content can, and is, soloed by many players. Yes, in a group, you can have a more well-defined role and be okay. When soloing, it's better to be a jack of all traits so to speak. When soloing, you sometimes NEED those "oh ####" skills. I have soloed most of the content on all of my characters. I only join groups when absolutely necessary. So saying that someone is a bad player because they need an "oh ####" skill is not logical for people that solo. Those "oh ####" spells have gotten me out of many a bind when i needed them in difficult solo situations. If you're solo, you're going to draw aggro. There is no way no to. You can control how much you draw in many cases, but stripping the classes down is going to take away some of that control. I am thinking of my LM specifically since she is my main. I am able to take on several enemies at once now with my CC abilities. You pigeonhole those abilities so I am limited, and I won't have that advantage anymore. A major part of being a LM is crowd control. Canning the classes into specific defined roles and limiting the type and the number of skills will make them completely different classes. I honestly don't see how they can strip classes like the LM or Burgs down and have them be effective soloers. At any given time on either my burg or LM I use ALL of my skills with the exception of only a few, and I love the versatility of having ALL of those skills at my disposal. IMO it makes the classes more challenging and more fun to play.

  25. #25
    Throughout the threads addressing the class changes, there seems to be two views.

    Pro-change: The current classes are overpowered, and need to be dulled down to make the game more difficult and bring balance.

    Anti-change: The current classes give the versatility to overcome more difficult challenges, and each class has its own pro/cons.

    The goal is the same, to enjoy the game and challenge yourself, but both take different routes. As plain to see, I myself am anti-change. We players already have the ability to play 1 role if we so choose. Just drag all your non-primary role skills off of your bar. There's no need to force everyone into a simplistic playstyle. As far as getting a challenge when you have so many skills at your disposal, participate in harder content. I doubt everyone who is saying that all the classes need to be limited have done Tier 2 Challenge mode in Ost Dunhoth, or have gone out by themselves in PvP, or have tried under-manning instances. The tools are there for the players who want to do more advanced challenges.

    It seems to be almost a casual gamer versus serious gamer issue. The casuals want things to be more simplistic, while the serious enjoy the complexity of the current system. My suggestions: If the casuals want simplistic plug and go grouping where everyone does 1 thing, they drag their non-primary skills off their bar and play that way.

    But its too late for that, as Turbine has too much invested in the changes, and they are coming no matter what the veterans and those who presently enjoy the system have to say. They get more money from casual play as it is, so why not keep the bread basket tight? Helms Deep, hastening the decline of serious gamers and LotRO.

 

 
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