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  1. #26
    Can no longer change stances in combat.

    Can't pick up the slack when tank goes down. Can't go off tank for trash then dps for boss. Must visit bard to change stances. Kind of like when they took the shield away, except worse.

    Strategy, skill and diversity diminished, maintenance time increased.

    Class becomes either unplayable or unfun. Back in the closet.

    Why?

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by bastiat1 View Post
    I'm not buying it. Developer Diaries have always been released in Beta. Moreover, when has Turbine ever made any SIGNIFICANT changes to any gameplay mechanic based on Beta feedback. The fact that these diaries are so sparse and devoid of legitimate information is 100% an indication that they just don't care that much, or that they assume you don't care that much (going all casual and chit).

    Compare the three terrible class Dev Diaries we've received over the last week to the one Orion wrote when he revamped Minstrels....

    http://cstm.mymiddleearth.com/files/...oper_Diary.pdf (fortunately I was able to find a copy since it doesn't appear to be on the LoTRO site any longer).


    Tell me that Orion didn't love his job. It's just so obvious in the way he reveals his new creation that he was incredibly proud of his work- as he should have been. That's 13 pages of description, explanation, and justification for a pretty big re-write of the Minstrel class. Now, as big as that revamp was it is incredibly small relative to the current revamps and yet we are getting at best 1/13th of the information.

    It's too bad we don't have Orion around any more. That guy was legit. Guess where he is now? Dats right- Turbine's new baby INFINITE CRISIS, which is funny because that's becoming the new pet name for LoTRO.
    Quite frankly your only attitude seems to be that everything was better before. Orion has brought the minstrel class to a point that a friend of mine that loves healing nearly stopped playing them. Now he can explain that all he wants if people don't like it they wont. Not saying the minstrel changes this time around will be great i honestly have no clue at this point but no amount of explanation will help anything if the end of it is #### for a lot of people. 13 pages of explaining #### still remains ####.
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  3. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Thorwyn99 View Post
    Quite frankly your only attitude seems to be that everything was better before. Orion has brought the minstrel class to a point that a friend of mine that loves healing nearly stopped playing them. Now he can explain that all he wants if people don't like it they wont. Not saying the minstrel changes this time around will be great i honestly have no clue at this point but no amount of explanation will help anything if the end of it is #### for a lot of people. 13 pages of explaining #### still remains ####.
    2 points:

    1) the minstrel changes were overwhelmingly positively received by minstrels. Obviously some people will did not like it, as is the case with any change, and its unfortunate that your friend was one of them

    2) the point of the post you quote is that Dev diaries in the past showed pretty much the full extent of changes taking place, before the NDA was removed, and did so with a degree of thoroughness and passion that thus far has not been present in this round of Dev diaries. the post you quote was not meant to illustrate how much better a job orion did with that revamp than the ones we are getting now. We're looking for that level of communication.

    Quote Originally Posted by MithrielWielder View Post
    Must visit bard to change stances.
    I don't disagree with anything else in your post, but you won't have to visit a bard anymore, just drop combat.
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  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    2 points:

    1) the minstrel changes were overwhelmingly positively received by minstrels. Obviously some people will did not like it, as is the case with any change, and its unfortunate that your friend was one of them

    2) the point of the post you quote is that Dev diaries in the past showed pretty much the full extent of changes taking place, before the NDA was removed, and did so with a degree of thoroughness and passion that thus far has not been present in this round of Dev diaries. the post you quote was not meant to illustrate how much better a job orion did with that revamp than the ones we are getting now. We're looking for that level of communication.
    While i can understand that, much of the stuff i read there seems to be justification. That is great but from what i read in this Dev diary not a lot of justification is needed.
    Sure i can be wrong and the champ will be hugely different from what it is now but so far i don't see it, so 13 pages of justification don't seem necessary.
    It also could mean the current dev just doesn't care but i don't tend to assume the worst if i can help it.
    Nothing here matters.

  5. #30
    meh ............
    Last edited by timmyloo22546; Sep 18 2013 at 02:12 PM.

  6. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Thorwyn99 View Post
    Orion has brought the minstrel class to a point that a friend of mine that loves healing nearly stopped playing them.
    Your friend must have been a heal-bot kind of Bolster spammer. Orion made the class much more intricate and nuanced than it was before. The changes were viewed as overwhelmingly positive, your friend's objection notwithstanding.

    Regardless though, the point is, Orion not only did a great job, but more importantly he actually explained what he did in a high degree of detail. The fact that people are blindly accepting of whatever Turbine throws over the fence will always be baffling to me.

  7. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Zetsubousensei View Post
    I'm not quite sure I got this right. Certain skills are only acquired when you specialize in a certain tree, and others can be obtained (with points I assume) because they are "in a tree"?
    The issue is where in the tree to put it. If it's far into the tree, then you can't pick it up if you specialize in a different tree. In a way, it's similar to what we have now -- you can't get the 4-trait bonuses in the Yellow trait line if you got the 4-trait bonus in the red line. However, you CAN pick up at least 2-trait bonuses if you put 5 into your specialization. So with the tree method, you'll specialize in one tree and have a few points left to put in another tree. The question then becomes, which skills should be placed low enough in a tree so that they could be picked up even if you specialized either of the other two trees. Those are the low-hanging-fruit skills that anyone can get. Some skills, however, will only be available if you specialize in a tree -- sort of the way trait bonuses work today, only it will be will skills instead of skill/stat bonuses. Those skills will ONLY be available if you specialize in the tree that contains them.

    Keep in mind that out of combat, you can switch between two tree specializations with a few clicks. You are locked into one tree during combat, but you can switch afterwards. As mentioned above, you can switch between an AOE tree for trash mobs and a single-target tree for a boss. With a TP expenditure, you could pick up a third tree specialization for tanking -- though you can't switch during combat, so it won't work for an "Oh Sh*t the Tank Died!" save the way switching to Glory stance kind of works today.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by MithrielWielder View Post
    Can no longer change stances in combat.

    Can't pick up the slack when tank goes down. Can't go off tank for trash then dps for boss. Must visit bard to change stances. Kind of like when they took the shield away, except worse.

    Strategy, skill and diversity diminished, maintenance time increased.

    Class becomes either unplayable or unfun. Back in the closet.

    Why?
    Like spelunker said: no bard anymore. They have already said in the twitter-dev-chat that you can change them at any time as long as your out of combat.

  9. #34
    Do the Devs charged with updating a class actually play the class ??, have they ever considered polling? for instance the top 10 hunters/champs/mini etc on each server for feedback about the class before tearing into it ??? i will reserve judgement on changes until i actually experience them at this stage.....

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by m4r View Post
    Do the Devs charged with updating a class actually play the class ??, have they ever considered polling? for instance the top 10 hunters/champs/mini etc on each server for feedback about the class before tearing into it ??? i will reserve judgement on changes until i actually experience them at this stage.....
    Lol, and who would decide the "top 10"? 9_9
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  11. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Hirandiel View Post
    Lol, and who would decide the "top 10"? 9_9
    if you have to ask, you aren't one of them.




    (kidding of course :P)
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  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hirandiel View Post
    Lol, and who would decide the "top 10"? 9_9
    It's a pvp thing. Often you can find one using 100 plugins to detect every little nuance of dps versus training dummies.

    I think champ sounds OK now, not played one since free test weeks eu server 2007ish. Might use one of 17 slots for it!

  13. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Macroscian View Post
    It's a pvp thing. Often you can find one using 100 plugins to detect every little nuance of dps versus training dummies.

    I think champ sounds OK now, not played one since free test weeks eu server 2007ish. Might use one of 17 slots for it!
    not that its overly relevant, but I've found more pve raiders run a damage parsing program than PvPers. Its still a valuable tool for pvp, but so many variables exist in pvp that detecting minor nuances is more the grounds of a pve dpser.
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  14. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by energon View Post
    Should the "has not" be a "has"?

    I think it was "So it has now been revamped" with wrong spelling :P

    Quote Originally Posted by MithrielWielder View Post
    Can't go off tank for trash then dps for boss. Must visit bard to change stances. Kind of like when they took the shield away, except worse.
    I read somewhere you will be able to change traits everywhere, just you need to be out of combat


    Also, please, keep the topic about champion's dev diary
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  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zetsubousensei View Post
    I'm not quite sure I got this right. Certain skills are only acquired when you specialize in a certain tree, and others can be obtained (with points I assume) because they are "in a tree"?
    mounted combat has certain skills you 'buy' with points. since this new system seems built upon that, i'm sure it will work in the same fashion.

  16. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by bastiat1 View Post
    Regardless though, the point is, Orion not only did a great job, but more importantly he actually explained what he did in a high degree of detail.
    I think they released Orion's amazing huge dev diary just because he majorly changed the gameplay of the class. The diary itself kind of read like a small guide to the class, he just thoroughly wanted to explain what he did to the class and why. Usually the player has to the levelcap to learn their class, but since people were already at the cap, Orion just explained the mechanics in the diary.

    Even though the way we build characters is probably going to be changed a lot, I don't think the devs want the gameplay of the class to change majorly this time around. It seems to be making quality of life improvements and removing useless or unfun mechanics. Since the gameplay isn't going to be changed a lot, a lot of the stuff that does get changed is heavily influenced by beta testing, so giving out long diaries with a lot of detailed information that might not be right in half a month isn't very useful either.

    But maybe the dev diaries are rather small due to time constraints. I would rather have my class devs spending time on the classes instead of the dev diaries. We'll get the information eventually when the expansion goes live anyway.
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  17. #42
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    Hmm... was actually expecting something of value in the diary... Anyway what has me worried is the phrase that berserkers might want to spend in martial to gain SW (which has been reworked... again). To me that reads: "Yes you will still encounter power problems and yes, you will need to keep power savers on your rune". I really do hope I'm wrong though...

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  18. #43
    Sounds like all the blue-line glory heroes in the moors are gonna be elated... what is the purpose of someone who just runs up and "soaks damage"? That sounds so utterly... useless... in a game centered around combat and helping out your group. The Martial Champion has less damage, does not provide debuffs, and (yes, I will make a generalization here) cannot tank as effectively as other classes, unless you are very good at champ.

    Why not provide blue-line champs with better tanking skills (ya know, help their fellowship?) instead of better "I take a lot of damage while they can't whittle me down" skills? Better tanking skills would encourage champs to go blue line in PvE, not solely traiting it in PvP to simply cheese their fights. Probably safe to say blue-line champs are gonna be the new warden in the moors.
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  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by timmyloo22546 View Post
    From what I heard thus far: when you trait you must select what you want your main role to be (so you pick 1 of the 3 trees). That tree will then cost fewer points than the other two trees. Based on that, I assume once you select a dedicated tree you're automatically locked into the stance associated with that tree and can never enter the other two stances (passives).
    As an addendum, you will be locked into the stance associated with that tree and can never enter the other two stances (passives) unless you completely refund your points to respec, or use a secondary (presaved) trait configuration. All players will receive 2 free trait configuration slots. More can be purchased. I personally don't see any use for more than 3, but I did want to point out that players won't be 100% locked into a specific stance forever (the way players of SWTOR get locked into a single sub-class at level 10).
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  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by m4r View Post
    Do the Devs charged with updating a class actually play the class ??, have they ever considered polling? for instance the top 10 hunters/champs/mini etc on each server for feedback about the class before tearing into it ??? i will reserve judgement on changes until i actually experience them at this stage.....
    How do you want to determine who the top 10-players of each class on each server are? And additionally, if you would choose people who do many raids and instances are only one side of the gameplay. There is also solo-Gameplay or PvMP for example... and they would refuse any change which may could weaken their class, even if that would balance the different classes or the traits within a class. They wouldn't remove any skill that they want to have even if they know that these are too potent...

    The devs should know the class they change, yes. But, please, players suggestions on these changes would be too subjective to change it. It has to be a way between subjectivism and objectivism... knowing the class but not clinging on certain skills - yeah, most skills should remain, but some have to be changed...

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Macroscian View Post
    It's a pvp thing. Often you can find one using 100 plugins to detect every little nuance of dps versus training dummies.

    I think champ sounds OK now, not played one since free test weeks eu server 2007ish. Might use one of 17 slots for it!
    It's more than just DPS or HPS. They have to know their class and this also in emergency situations... And don't tell me that you have these situations when you fight against training dummies... :P

  22. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Mar-Evayave View Post
    As an addendum, you will be locked into the stance associated with that tree and can never enter the other two stances (passives) unless you completely refund your points to respec, or use a secondary (presaved) trait configuration. All players will receive 2 free trait configuration slots. More can be purchased. I personally don't see any use for more than 3, but I did want to point out that players won't be 100% locked into a specific stance forever (the way players of SWTOR get locked into a single sub-class at level 10).
    I think the issue people are having is that while you can change stance with another configuration OUT of combat, you won't be able to do so reactively DURING a fight, and that is an unpleasant reduction in versatility.

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  23. #48
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    I'm just highly nervous about the whole thing, and for many reasons. And this dev diary did little to reassure me that the class I fell in love with will still be a class I want to play.

    While my champion is traited for the yellow line, she uses all the self-heals available to champions too, as she often serves as a sort of 'tank' for when me and my best friend get it into our heads to try a raid or instance on our own. And from the sound of it in the diary, yellow line will no longer have access to those skills. It sounds like that's all blue line only now. And as for the red line 'You kill an opponent and get healed', they don't say just how much that heal will be worth. Will it be a little heal, or a big heal?

    And as for the yellow line 'the more people hitting the champ the more damage the champ does' I also see it as 'the faster the champ dies'. Even as things are right now, champs can be pretty squishy. We have no shields to mitigate damage, only our armor. So, if self-heals become a blue line only thing, I can see either an even greater burden and need for what will essentially be a 'healer bot' on the field, or more dead champs.

    And I don't even know what to think about what was said over the blue line in the diary. Mostly because that was even more vague then anything else said. We got a whopping 3 sentences to tell us about the changes. (I counted. It's three.)

    I am, however, grateful for the bit of news that they won't be associating any of the lines with a weapon type (2 hander vs dual wield) and are leaving that choice up to the players.

    For the stances, yes, they were already more or less passive skills. You clicked and forgot. But will the new passive stances behave more or less the same way as when they were toggle skills? Will we still be able to modify exactly what we do with our LIs? Or are the current LIs that we have put great effort into making and probably hoped would last awhile suddenly going to be useless?

    And on the topic of LIs, which I didn't see mentioned in the diary at all, but do have a (rather large) impact on how the class is played, will legacies be changing too? Are we going to get even more legacies that only impact a specific skill, or are we going to get some that affect a range of skills (like warden legacies that affect all the gambits of a certain type).

    What might have helped allay my fears a (tiny) bit would be if these diaries came with pictures (and large enough that we can actually read them) of the prototype of the tree. Yes, the trees could change during the course of beta. I know that. But it would give many of us a better idea of what exactly the low-hanging fruits were, and what we had to dig for. How points would be spent, and what skill were now in what trees.

    Right now these diaries feel painfully like parents telling their children partial truths and white lies because they don't feel like being honest with the kid.
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  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seschat View Post
    I think the issue people are having is that while you can change stance with another configuration OUT of combat, you won't be able to do so reactively DURING a fight, and that is an unpleasant reduction in versatility.

    "*shing*shing* Cuttin' down the trash mobs *shing*shing* MY GOD WHAT IS THAT THING! And what happened to the Minstrel's Morale bar, anyway?"
    lol Quite true, but I think in the case of one way or the other, this method is the only fair one. How would it be to attack that minstrel and suddenly have it go from all-out healing to all-out DPS?

    Also, not all classes can change stances quickly. Minstrels have a pretty long induction for their stances, which can be interrupted easily. Champions, on the other hand, can go from one to another with hardly a pause between, and can change stances mobile.

    The majority of this is still based on trait configs. You can't change your traits in combat as it is (in fact, you usually have to make a long walk back to the nearest bard). And as awesome as the stances are, as far as champions go they aren't the deciding factor in any given fight. If you have your traits set for all AoE DPS and go around in Ardour, even if you change your stance your traits are still not aligned for the right kind of stance. The traits ultimately do the most in terms to what role you are playing, not the stances. At least for champions. Obviously for classes like Guardians and Minstrels, certain stances lock out certain skills. I desperately hope the stances aren't locked into specific trait trees for them, especially since dropping any stance at all gives the Minstrel the most powerful heals. The inability to drop a stance is going to severely hinder Minstrel healing. I mean, what Minstrel would want to play with absolutely no traits at all, just so they can avoid getting locked into Harmony or War-speech?
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  25. #50
    Figured out what I was talking about earlier in the thread. The article I was talking about was this Ten Ton Hammer interview but it was missing one vital piece of information. The trait tree image there is lacking one word that can be seen in Turbine's own preview: specialization, which is the name of the narrow bar to the left. As far as I can infer from those images, it also advances as you buy into the tree. The skill division talked about in the dev diary most likely means about skills that are in the trees, and skills that are in this specialization progress bar.

 

 
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