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  1. #1
    Sapience is offline Former Community Manager & Harbinger of Soon
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    Developer Diary : Champion Class Changes in Helm’s Deep

    By: Jinjaah

    Hey All,

    When tapped to work on the Champion, it was important to me that the main functionality not change drastically, but instead work into the trees in a meaningful way. As it existed before the revamp, each line had a specific purpose, some more focused or successful than others, but each had a distinct goal and way of going about things. So when it came time to define each line, it just made sense from the start. [READ MORE]

  2. #2
    3 out of 3 dev diaries with the same language. It seems safe to bury the notion the Devs put forward before that hybridization would be reduced in this new traiting system.

    In the grand scheme, dropping stances is the right move, I do question whether its the right move when coupled with the skill pruning we are getting. Will skills like ebbing and rising ire continue to be one skill, and which function it fulfills based is on how you are traited?

    The ramifications of fully hybrid builds remaining possible and even prominent, all while reducing the overall utility of classes via skill reduction is downright scary to me.

    The major mechanic being added to the old ardour line makes it sound like this will remain a solo-grinder stance, rather than something that is truly viable for any group content we are left with in HD.

    As always, more details, these Dev diaries are barely a couple paragraphs. If you're completely rewriting our classes, knowing what to expect before the expansion goes live would be much appreciated.
    Last edited by spelunker; Sep 13 2013 at 02:51 PM.

  3. #3
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    Sums it up.

  4. #4
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    Now there were some things that needed to change with them becoming passives and we have addressed them make them feel more impactful and less penalizing. Some Example of this would be removing the Parry and Evade penalties from Fervour. ~ Jinjaah


    Never thought id see the day....hehe
    Ridduk R14 WL
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  5. #5
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    "It was important to me that the main functionality not change drastically, but instead work into the trees in a meaningful way". This quote made me realize that we got the best dev evaaa glad to see we got a dev that understands our class.

    Great info with Deadly Storm and Berserker Champion. It seems like the martial champion will pretty much be the same. Is it just me or is dire need going to be replaced with bracing attack as our main self heal. IF there would one thing i would like to see in this dev diary is more info on the martial champion, that is the main tree i would see myself specing in (heck it is what im traited in now), just don't take away wild attack reducing the cooldown on sudden defence though.


    "they just wanted to run up to things and soak up damage. So this masochistic nature has been fully realized in the Martial Champion"

    ^ That made my day ^

    Jinjaah #1!!!!!

  6. #6
    It sounds like you can get the 3 stances as passive skills by spending points in the trees. Does this mean you could get all 3 stances at the same time if you build your class that way. So having the surviability of Glory, the DPS of Fervour and the power reduction of Ardour in one build

  7. #7
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    Will definitely be interested to see how this plays out once it goes live. Glad to see Fervour's penalty removed (as I spent most of my time in that), although sounds like I'll have to use part of Martial Champion as well to keep a semblance of my current play style, unless other power and morale regeneration methods are available under Berserker.

    Overall though, sounds good. Glad to see the class doesn't seem to have drastically changed all that much, as the old stances have essentially become their own trees.

  8. #8
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    Well i'm not sure how i like the pips for power change but otherwise i think this sounds good . Oh yeah one more thing did i read that right that the aoe tree gets more damage the more mobs hit the champ ? Seems a bit weird since if i'm full dps i really don't want to get hit if possible.
    Nothing here matters.

  9. #9
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    I agree with the concern that aoe line max dps will depend on getting hit. In a group situation that is the exact opposite that you want. At least we can swap ST for AOE traits easy enough.

  10. #10
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    Hm... As the first class in the alphabet that I'm familiar with (currently leveling my champion) I felt a bit of a worry when I started reading this. I'm glad at some things, and optimistically dubious about others. I am glad that the stances will become passives because, yes, they were more or less that already. I'd throw on Ardour and not look at it again the entire playtime (except those annoying times that I'd accidentally activate one of the other stances by miss-fire). I hope the benefits they give (in the case of Ardour, benefits such as the ICPR, decreased threat, extra fervour from Blade-wall, etc) remain the same. I work towards increasing the potency of my AoEs as well as building fervour (or reducing fervour costs) as much as possible, which makes Ardour exactly what I want.

    Thanks, Jinjaah! Excellent dev diary. I am indeed excited to see how these changes play out for Champions.
    R5 100 GRD Marevayave - Leader of [U][B]Riddermark[/B][/U]ed For Death
    R8 100 MNS Fayah/100 LM Siennah/100 HNT Dinenol/100 RK Dhurik
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    R9 100 MNS Fayeh (alt Wilya) - Lonely Mountain Band @ [U][B]Landroval[/B][/U]

  11. Seems like we champs have a dev who actually knows the class they are revamping. Big thumbs up on the diary, and with the new trait system champs become even more useful in group. Go all out AOE for trash then change post battle to single for the boss fights.

  12. #12
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    Hmm. Mostly looks OK, but I'm worried by the stance issue. I don't consider them to currently be a passive that I turn on and forget. Example - fellowship with a warden off-tank who doesn't know how to generate threat. If I use an offensive skill, I immediately have aggro. First time, I can dump it back to him with Ebbing Ire. After that, right now I can just toggle over to Glory and start putting on my tanking gear (that period of auto-attacking while I shift at least half a dozen pieces of gear usually lets the warden regain aggro one last time). From what little the dev diary says, I don't think I'll be able to do that after HD. Maybe letting Fervour parry and evade (!) makes this a non-issue, we'll have to see.

    I'm also surprised that the diary didn't address the elephant in the room - where is our shing-shing? I play fervour for solo and dps roles, and glory for tanking (obviously), but Raging Blades has been perma-slotted from the moment I got it all those years ago and I use it as often as I can in any role if there are multiple mobs in the fight. If it ends up deep in the yellow tree after HD, that would be very disappointing, to put it mildly! At a more general level, I hope aoe skills are not restricted to yellow. One of the champ's big strengths is that our aoe is awesome without even trying (red or blue traited). I'd be disappointed to become another mostly single target class unless I traited yellow. And I don't see myself having enough points to do much yellow with either a solo/dps or tanking trait setup (not in beta, so could be wrong about that).

  13. #13
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    Looks good to me. Can't wait for more details.

  14. #14
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    I play my Champion deeply traited into Martial Champion and as Main Tank and after reading the dev diary I'm not sure if I should be worried about that aggro management was not mentioned at all, so I have a few questions:

    1. Will the old way of generating aggro be maintained? Aggro reflect with Glorious Exchange, additional aggro for Blade Wall and Wild Attack, Rising Ire for aggro leech, Horn of Champions, Champions Challenge

    2. Where is shing-shing? In the yellow line I guess, but how deep?

    3. Do we get anything new for aggro generation, perhaps an aggro leech that doesn't require to target an ally?

  15. #15
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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    As always, more details, these Dev diaries are barely a couple paragraphs. If you're completely rewriting our classes, knowing what to expect before the expansion goes live would be much appreciated.
    This.

    ..........

  16. #16
    they do not give more info due to the expansion being in beta, and things will change between these diaries and the expansions release date. they do not want to say x will happen when during the course of beta they find y works better.

    i understand we want more info, but i would prefer information that will not change and i respect that they are being vague about things.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Moldy-Cheese View Post
    they do not give more info due to the expansion being in beta, and things will change between these diaries and the expansions release date. they do not want to say x will happen when during the course of beta they find y works better.

    i understand we want more info, but i would prefer information that will not change and i respect that they are being vague about things.
    In which case I'd rather these dev diaries waited a month. Unless another round of announcements can be expected prior to patch notes on release.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    In which case I'd rather these dev diaries waited a month. Unless another round of announcements can be expected prior to patch notes on release.
    i am sure after beta, the information trail will grow. right now they can't give too much away due to the beta testing. after beta is done and the nda is lifted, users and developers alike will be flooding the forums with everything, good and bad.

    being frustrated over something you can't control isn't the way to go. just be patient and let things happen.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    In which case I'd rather these dev diaries waited a month. Unless another round of announcements can be expected prior to patch notes on release.
    They could have waited a bit, sure, but once the NDA is lifted those currently in beta will give us all the info we could want and more.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Moldy-Cheese View Post
    i am sure after beta, the information trail will grow. right now they can't give too much away due to the beta testing. after beta is done and the nda is lifted, users and developers alike will be flooding the forums with everything, good and bad.
    I'm not buying it. Developer Diaries have always been released in Beta. Moreover, when has Turbine ever made any SIGNIFICANT changes to any gameplay mechanic based on Beta feedback. The fact that these diaries are so sparse and devoid of legitimate information is 100% an indication that they just don't care that much, or that they assume you don't care that much (going all casual and chit).

    Compare the three terrible class Dev Diaries we've received over the last week to the one Orion wrote when he revamped Minstrels....

    http://cstm.mymiddleearth.com/files/...oper_Diary.pdf (fortunately I was able to find a copy since it doesn't appear to be on the LoTRO site any longer).


    Tell me that Orion didn't love his job. It's just so obvious in the way he reveals his new creation that he was incredibly proud of his work- as he should have been. That's 13 pages of description, explanation, and justification for a pretty big re-write of the Minstrel class. Now, as big as that revamp was it is incredibly small relative to the current revamps and yet we are getting at best 1/13th of the information.

    It's too bad we don't have Orion around any more. That guy was legit. Guess where he is now? Dats right- Turbine's new baby INFINITE CRISIS, which is funny because that's becoming the new pet name for LoTRO.
    Last edited by bastiat1; Sep 13 2013 at 06:50 PM.

  21. #21
    With the champion, it was a difficult process of deciding which skills should be tied to a tree’s specialization and what should be placed in a tree for others to be able to obtain.
    I'm not quite sure I got this right. Certain skills are only acquired when you specialize in a certain tree, and others can be obtained (with points I assume) because they are "in a tree"?

  22. #22
    I like the idea of splitting roles IN ORDER TO IMPROVE EACH OF THEM and not just to see them splitted. I hope the changes are well thought and well developed, not like know when you basically keep the same trait line for everything (and tanking isn't really an option) Please tell me champions will be able to tank again (for real) and I will be soooo happy!

    Note for Zetsubousensei and others interested:
    According to what we can read in published articles, traits (and skills) are distributed into 3 tree lines. You will have some points to spent like MC. Points seems to be (speculation) not enough to fill more then one line and a "bit". So you can only reach cap in Berserker (for example) and pick "dire need" or "second wind" in Martial Champion line, which I assume are at the start of the line or near-by

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by bastiat1 View Post
    I'm not buying it. Developer Diaries have always been released in Beta. Moreover, when has Turbine ever made any SIGNIFICANT changes to any gameplay mechanic based on Beta feedback. The fact that these diaries are so sparse and devoid of legitimate information is 100% an indication that they just don't care that much, or that they assume you don't care that much (going all casual and chit).

    Compare the three terrible class Dev Diaries we've received over the last week to the one Orion wrote when he revamped Minstrels....

    http://cstm.mymiddleearth.com/files/...oper_Diary.pdf (fortunately I was able to fine a copy since it doesn't appear to be on the LoTRO site any longer).


    Tell me that Orion didn't love his job. It's just so obvious in the way he reveals his new creation that he was incredibly proud of his work- as he should have been. That's 13 pages of description, explanation, and justification for a pretty big re-write of the Minstrel class. Now, as big as that revamp was it is incredibly small relative to the current revamps and yet we are getting at best 1/13th of the information.

    It's too bad we don't have Orion around any more. That guy was legit. Guess where he is now? Dats right- Turbine's new baby INFINITE CRISIS, which is funny because that's becoming the new pet name for LoTRO.
    Put much better than I could have, thank you. Also, if you take a look at his warden Dev Diaries you see even more info than the minstrel ones. Those diaries were raw in that things in that clearly came straight from his notes and were yet to be finalized on the BR, but we wardens also knew exactly what we were going to be dealing with when we got to live, even if a handful of things mentioned were axed or changed between the dev diary posting and the final build on Live.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zetsubousensei View Post
    I'm not quite sure I got this right. Certain skills are only acquired when you specialize in a certain tree, and others can be obtained (with points I assume) because they are "in a tree"?
    Certain skills will be universal to every champ, regardless of traiting. Certain skills will be unlocked or changed as you invest in a certain tree. I don't think anything has been mentioned about whether certain skills will be acquired specifically through choosing a specialization (or even how choosing a specialization will work).

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by YageerSilverscale View Post
    According to what we can read in published articles, traits (and skills) are distributed into 3 tree lines. You will have some points to spent like MC. Points seems to be (speculation) not enough to fill more then one line and a "bit". So you can only reach cap in Berserker (for example) and pick "dire need" or "second wind" in Martial Champion line, which I assume are at the start of the line or near-by
    Yes, I've seen the sample Lore-Master tree in one of the articles elsewhere, so I know the tree system appears to work pretty much like in any other tree-system MMO. What I am referring to is the specific phrasing in that sentence, which seems to divide the skills into two categories, "tied to a tree’s specialization" and "placed in a tree for others to be able to obtain" as they put them.

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Jinjah
    When working with Second Wind, the duration of the skill with the cooldown made it feel like my champion had a passive that I had to click every x seconds. So it has not been revamped to consume all fervour on the champion and instantly give the champion power back based on the number of fervour pips consumed.
    Should the "has not" be a "has"?

 

 
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