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  1. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snabur View Post
    First of all: Vips dont get the epics too, you need to purchase HD.
    Second: Why Turbine need to worry about f2p players? If you're Free2play you NEVER put ANY money in the game to help mantain it. IMO if you want to play every epic in the game and go till level cap (no matter how much grind you need to do) you need give some money to Turbine, you're using the awesome content Turbine do without help them keep the game going and still complain.....
    Thanks SO much Turbine, the Epics should be a extra for who purchase the exp packs.

    PS: Sorry if i'm being rude, but i cant understand someone complaining about a company dont giving the best type of quests the game has to offer for free since you never put a dolar to help them mantain the game. It's like complain with Ferrari for not giving you the best car they have for free....

    Exactly. This is how I feel also. I also bet that they data mined to see exactly how many players actually do only the epic quests in Isengard and Rohan without buying the expansion. The number may be really low. I'm just speculating, I have no evidence to back this up.
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  2. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadeOfLions View Post
    I'm glad you guys enjoy the Epic Story! We spend a lot of time and effort making it, and for me, getting to play in the Professor's sandbox with so many of his creations is an absolute joy. We had a few options available to us when the time came to figure out the contents of the Helm's Deep expansion, and we chose the one that honestly seems like it provides the best value for you guys. I was always a little saddened when players would make lists of 'What am I getting when I buy this expansion?' because they always end with something along the lines of 'And not the Epic... you get that anyway!' It does seem to diminish the value proposition of the expansion when you can experience its featured event or location without picking it up

    .....

    This would all probably have shown up in a Dev Diary at some point, but as the Epic Story Guy I wanted you to know some of the process of what led to this decision. It's okay - I play a Guardian on the Live servers, I can handle any vitriol. But play nice for Sapience's sake.

    MoL

    While I can understand the motivation, I am sadden that this comparison chart is no longer correct (Specific attention to Epic Stories: Unlimited for VIP/Premium/FreeToPlay

    I really hope that Turbine (*cough WB) would consider reversing that decision, or making the "paid" epic story portions similar to what it was in the Mirkwood Epilogues, (you cannot complete them without the expac, but other than having a nagging feeling of not completing an "optional" portion of the story, you at least had a sense of progression) To be honest, this doesn't really affect me, as I do have enough points accrued to purchase the expac (assuming it will come out in the store) but i do feel that i need to speak up for the other players who will be affected by this reversal. As someone who owns all the expansions and most of the quest packs (sans Misty mountains and forochel and wildermore, since snowy places lags my game), I can say that the ability to try the area does affect my decision to purchase the content.
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  3. #178
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    Question to any staff still reading this thread:

    (asked this on twitter, but I think my intent was poorly explained)

    I'm curious as to whether this is a policy shift - whilst I understand the rationale behind epics being with the expansion, does this mark a distinct policy shift for all future expansions as well? (eg: Gondor, Dead Marshes, Desolation of Morannon etc).

    Context - I'm a VIP sub, who has happily bought all expacs so far, and have pre-purchased HD, so I don't have any qualms about buying a product I enjoy using on near-daily basis.
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  4. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadeOfLions View Post
    This is just an expansion change for now - I'm hoping we can keep the Epic Story free in other updates. But for big expansions I'd expect that it'll be featured as one of the Things You Get on the 'virtual box.'
    Don't know why so many people still feel unclear on this. He laid it out pretty articulately. If you want another 'promise', well, after all the drama-mongering people have been doing over the current so-called 'broken' promise, I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you. Frankly I'm amazed Turbine even bothers to give any information anymore. They're damned if they do, and damned if they don't.

  5. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by frickinmuck View Post
    Don't know why so many people still feel unclear on this. He laid it out pretty articulately. If you want another 'promise', well, after all the drama-mongering people have been doing over the current so-called 'broken' promise, I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you. Frankly I'm amazed Turbine even bothers to give any information anymore. They're damned if they do, and damned if they don't.
    Ah, very many thanks frickinmuck - I missed that in the thread. Thanks for pointing it out to me
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  6. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by Elderban View Post
    Turbine has set a precedent, and from this point forward I am guessing that the Epic Storyline will no longer be free.

    Pretty soon, nothing will be free...for anyone...even VIP's.

    Next they'll probably want to charge for content updates.

    And, I am sorry MoL, twist it as much as you want, but Turbine has, once again, gone back on its word.
    This is a sad day, but I must agree on this. MoL, however you defend the change, whatever you say was required to make it - after you strip all the layers away it still makes the "Epic will always be free" promise a lie.

    As it is, HD will probably be the first expansion EVER that I will NOT buy. (I have pre-ordered legendary editions of pretty much everything else before.)

  7. #182
    In some ways paying for the epic makes sense. I mean you are already paying for every other quest in Western Rohan already and the expansion would probably be the same price with or without the epics anyway. So they include the epics in the paid for part of the expansion. That does not mean they could not make it free down the road. That's how the game started, and it was that way for the first expansion or two. You had to buy Moria to play through the epic. If they go back to that modle big deal. It does not mean that they cannot make the epics freem or open to people who did not buy Helm's Deep later. People can play through the epic quests in Moria now, so maybe they will do the same with Helm's Deep at a later date?

  8. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vahtera View Post
    it still makes the "Epic will always be free" promise a lie.
    Can someone please point me to where they actually said this? That VIP/Premium/Free chart people have been posting doesn't. Their initial press release for the game's transition to F2P said the epic would be free up to level 50. Where did they say that the epic story would be free for all time at all levels, until the day the game closes? Maybe they did, but I haven't seen it.

    Khafar

  9. #184
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    Khafar, that chart is from this website. Its titled "game features". One feature listed is "epics" , and under all subscriptions it lists "unlimited" as access. It seems clear to me. Don't you trust Turbines own advertising? There were statements made by Turbine on this subject, they most likely got removed during one of the forum pruning sessions. I do not want to sift through 1000's of posts looking for something that their own advertising already answers. If a policy was going to be changed, the advertising should change first. If it doesn't, it exposes the company to claims of false advertising. Maybe if you explained why you don't believe the features chart, someone could better answer your concerns.
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  10. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by robo7425 View Post
    Khafar, that chart is from this website. Its titled "game features". One feature listed is "epics" , and under all subscriptions it lists "unlimited" as access. It seems clear to me. Don't you trust Turbines own advertising? There were statements made by Turbine on this subject, they most likely got removed during one of the forum pruning sessions. I do not want to sift through 1000's of posts looking for something that their own advertising already answers. If a policy was going to be changed, the advertising should change first. If it doesn't, it exposes the company to claims of false advertising. Maybe if you explained why you don't believe the features chart, someone could better answer your concerns.
    Could not the "unlimited" mean everyone has access to all the epics that are already there? It doesn't seem to me that it means unlimited access to all present and future epic quests. You'd think if they mean for all time they would have said that. So I'm inclined to believe they meant what they said, unlimited access to all the epic quests, that are already in the game.

  11. #186
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    .... I am always a little saddened when Devs would make lists of 'What should they pay for when they buy this expansion?' because they always end with something along the lines " NO RAID NO PAY !!!"

  12. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meluihel View Post
    Could not the "unlimited" mean everyone has access to all the epics that are already there? It doesn't seem to me that it means unlimited access to all present and future epic quests. You'd think if they mean for all time they would have said that. So I'm inclined to believe they meant what they said, unlimited access to all the epic quests, that are already in the game.
    If you look at the chart, a lot of items have an astericks next to them. This directs the reader to an additional explanation. I would think they would have done this with the term "unlimited" if it truly meant limited to current content. If that's the case they should have changed the chart before the pre-order came out. Either way, Turbine will do what they want with charging for the epics.
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  13. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by robo7425 View Post
    Khafar, that chart is from this website. Its titled "game features". One feature listed is "epics" , and under all subscriptions it lists "unlimited" as access. It seems clear to me. Don't you trust Turbines own advertising? There were statements made by Turbine on this subject, they most likely got removed during one of the forum pruning sessions. I do not want to sift through 1000's of posts looking for something that their own advertising already answers. If a policy was going to be changed, the advertising should change first. If it doesn't, it exposes the company to claims of false advertising. Maybe if you explained why you don't believe the features chart, someone could better answer your concerns.
    That chart also says that the level cap is 85 and that players only have access to crafting tiers 1-7. Both of those will also be false when Helm's Deep is released. Perhaps that 'Unlimited' should be taken to mean 'Unlimited access to the existing quests'

    Also, that chart is for listing the differences between VIP/Premium/F2P and show that F2P player have the same access to the Epic story as VIPs. That is not changing.

    If they were feeling really devious Turbine could always claim that none of the quests in Helm's Deep is officially considered part of the Epic, so they aren't free. You know, similar to what they say about the Epilogue to Volume II, when people complain about it not being soloable, despite all the Epics supposedly being soloable.

  14. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by ertr View Post
    That chart also says that the level cap is 85 and that players only have access to crafting tiers 1-7. Both of those will also be false when Helm's Deep is released. Perhaps that 'Unlimited' should be taken to mean 'Unlimited access to the existing quests'

    Also, that chart is for listing the differences between VIP/Premium/F2P and show that F2P player have the same access to the Epic story as VIPs. That is not changing.

    If they were feeling really devious Turbine could always claim that none of the quests in Helm's Deep is officially considered part of the Epic, so they aren't free. You know, similar to what they say about the Epilogue to Volume II, when people complain about it not being soloable, despite all the Epics supposedly being soloable.
    The definition of unlimited is "without any limits or restrictions". This was from the Merriam-Webster dictionary. To claim additional restrictions to the word "unlimited" requires additional explanation. Just like I stated in my post above. This really should be further addressed by Turbine and not the players. Its a bad business practice not to change the advertising when a policy change is made.
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  15. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khafar View Post
    Can someone please point me to where they actually said this? That VIP/Premium/Free chart people have been posting doesn't. Their initial press release for the game's transition to F2P said the epic would be free up to level 50. Where did they say that the epic story would be free for all time at all levels, until the day the game closes? Maybe they did, but I haven't seen it.

    Khafar
    Click on the Compare the Benefits at the bottom of this page https://www.lotro.com/en/game/vip (look under Epics ) But whether that counts as advertising that the epic story in Helm's deep would be available for all VIP/Premium and F2Pers depends on how people interpret the word "unlimited"

    (i would be less inclined to take this as a reversal if they added a (* May require expansion to complete), however an "unlimited" without any disclaimer seems to imply.. well unlimited and unfettered access to the epic story

    Edit: Dang, took me almost an hour before i clicked post (Robo had already pretty much summed up everything clearly) (was spending the last hour looking for the forum posts and old developer diaries regarding the epic stories, (which unfortunately got pruned) and any other information i could find was either woefully out of date, or did not come from an official source)

    That chart also says that the level cap is 85 and that players only have access to crafting tiers 1-7. Both of those will also be false when Helm's Deep is released. Perhaps that 'Unlimited' should be taken to mean 'Unlimited access to the existing quests'

    Also, that chart is for listing the differences between VIP/Premium/F2P and show that F2P player have the same access to the Epic story as VIPs. That is not changing.

    If they were feeling really devious Turbine could always claim that none of the quests in Helm's Deep is officially considered part of the Epic, so they aren't free. You know, similar to what they say about the Epilogue to Volume II, when people complain about it not being soloable, despite all the Epics supposedly being soloable.
    There is no issue if the level caps or the number of crafting tiers are increased, Tier 1-7 is still available to the all players... in addition to that, we also now have tier 8, which is also available. Likewise, you can level up to level 85 (as well as lvl 86 all the way up to 95). However, it will be false advertising if there is a new crafting guild tier (Let's call just call it supreme master) that requires a new purchase and is not available to VIPers (and premium and F2Pers who have purchased the crafting guild unlocks)

    Summary: Giving consumers more than what was advertised to the benefit of the consumers, not an issue. Imposing restrictions without stating them: construed as false advertising)
    Last edited by jaecynt; Sep 16 2013 at 01:38 PM.
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  16. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by robo7425 View Post
    Its a bad business practice not to change the advertising when a policy change is made.
    I completely agree. There's a certain convenience store in my area that tends to leave out sale signs in front of their store a few days after the sale has ENDED. I confronted the cashier one time when I noticed that I got charged way more than the advertised price on the sign. She said, "the sale has ended." So I said, "then why is there still a sign on the front of your store?!" Then she said, "we haven't taken it down yet." *grumble* When businesses don't change advertising for their products, but change the product in question, I think it makes the business look extremely unprofessional.

  17. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by robo7425 View Post
    One feature listed is "epics" , and under all subscriptions it lists "unlimited" as access.
    Yes, I've seen it dozens of times. Such charts describe current features, not features on the roadmap to forever, particularly in products which add a great deal more features and content over time. If I went to the Wall Street Journal website 8 years ago, everything in there was "free". They probably advertised how awesome it was that everything was free. And later... some of it wasn't free, because free wasn't paying the bills. That doesn't mean that earlier statements were a "lie", it just meant it changed.

    I know this may disappoint people, but this whole "free" thing isn't a one-way latch. When they shipped F2P, the epic story was free only up to level 50... you still had to buy Moria to continue. Then they changed it, and made it free past that, and all of that is still free. The new stuff won't be, and I'm sure they'll update their chart to say "Unlimited to level 85" or some such. That doesn't make what came before a "lie" either. That's just an emotionally laden term used to try and score points in an argument. It was "Unlimited" up until Helm's Deep ships, and then it won't be "Unlimited". But they haven't actually taken anything available today away from anyone.

    Khafar

  18. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khafar View Post
    Yes, I've seen it dozens of times. Such charts describe current features, not features on the roadmap to forever, particularly in products which add a great deal more features and content over time. If I went to the Wall Street Journal website 8 years ago, everything in there was "free". They probably advertised how awesome it was that everything was free. And later... some of it wasn't free, because free wasn't paying the bills. That doesn't mean that earlier statements were a "lie", it just meant it changed.

    I know this may disappoint people, but this whole "free" thing isn't a one-way latch. When they shipped F2P, the epic story was free only up to level 50... you still had to buy Moria to continue. Then they changed it, and made it free past that, and all of that is still free. The new stuff won't be, and I'm sure they'll update their chart to say "Unlimited to level 85" or some such. That doesn't make what came before a "lie" either. That's just an emotionally laden term used to try and score points in an argument. It was "Unlimited" up until Helm's Deep ships, and then it won't be "Unlimited". But they haven't actually taken anything available today away from anyone.

    Khafar
    I understand what you're saying, but it still doesn't change the fact that if a new player were to look at that chart right now, they will be under the assumption that the epic is/will be free whether they are F2P/Prem./VIP even in Helm's Deep. We've known for a few days now that the epic in Helm's Deep requires a purchase, so why can't they change the chart right now? However, obviously it appears that that chart doesn't get updated regularly as it still shows crafting tiers 1-7.

    EDIT: Actually I take back the above. After thinking about it for a few mins., I think I am demanding a little too much perfection in transparency between game-and-player. You have a good point, Helm's Deep hasn't launched yet, so it would probably be a little premature to change little bits of wording in charts right now as there are still possibilities of things changing between now and then.
    Last edited by BackAgainAndThere; Sep 16 2013 at 10:15 PM.

  19. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by ertr View Post
    That chart also says that the level cap is 85 and that players only have access to crafting tiers 1-7. Both of those will also be false when Helm's Deep is released.
    Was there anything in that chart that claimed this would remain true forever? It will be outdated when Helm's Deep comes out of course, but what does that have to do with the old chart?

  20. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khafar View Post
    Yes, I've seen it dozens of times. Such charts describe current features, not features on the roadmap to forever, particularly in products which add a great deal more features and content over time. If I went to the Wall Street Journal website 8 years ago, everything in there was "free". They probably advertised how awesome it was that everything was free. And later... some of it wasn't free, because free wasn't paying the bills. That doesn't mean that earlier statements were a "lie", it just meant it changed.

    I know this may disappoint people, but this whole "free" thing isn't a one-way latch. When they shipped F2P, the epic story was free only up to level 50... you still had to buy Moria to continue. Then they changed it, and made it free past that, and all of that is still free. The new stuff won't be, and I'm sure they'll update their chart to say "Unlimited to level 85" or some such. That doesn't make what came before a "lie" either. That's just an emotionally laden term used to try and score points in an argument. It was "Unlimited" up until Helm's Deep ships, and then it won't be "Unlimited". But they haven't actually taken anything available today away from anyone.

    Khafar
    The thing is that when a company arbitrarily changes things (to the consumer's detriment), you cannot fault the consumers for feeling betrayed, and expect the company's reputation to remain untarnished. Real world example: Suppose you are a software developer with a subscription to MSDN (Microsoft Developer Network) you would expect to have access to Microsoft Windows 8.1. Agreements in the subscription promises unlimited access to all software developed by Microsoft. Then one day, Microsoft states that since Windows 8.1 is targeted to both the PC and non-PC market and would not be released in MSDN, what do you think would be the reaction of the software developers? (Thankfully this is not so, and Windows 8.1 is available in MSDN (to replace the trainwreck we call Windows 8)... *off topic )

    Like i said earlier, I am not affected by this change, and I do plan to purchase the expansion eventually, but you cannot say that this sudden reversal does (or should) not leave a sour taste in my mouth.
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  21. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lohi View Post
    Was there anything in that chart that claimed this would remain true forever? It will be outdated when Helm's Deep comes out of course, but what does that have to do with the old chart?
    It was said at one time that the epic quests would always be free to all players.

    Per Sapience in 2011: I've actually seen someone complaining that we're living up to the promise we made that the epic story line will always be free to all players. I'm not sure what to do with that complaint at all.

    Because I have very inept moments, here's the link: https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...48#post5676848

    I think it's sad because I feel that customer trust is being eroded to a point. It's not the epic quest per se, it's the principle of the thing.
    I'd explain it to you, but I'm all out of Puppets and Crayons.
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  22. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khafar View Post
    Yes, I've seen it dozens of times. Such charts describe current features, not features on the roadmap to forever, particularly in products which add a great deal more features and content over time. If I went to the Wall Street Journal website 8 years ago, everything in there was "free". They probably advertised how awesome it was that everything was free. And later... some of it wasn't free, because free wasn't paying the bills. That doesn't mean that earlier statements were a "lie", it just meant it changed.

    I know this may disappoint people, but this whole "free" thing isn't a one-way latch. When they shipped F2P, the epic story was free only up to level 50... you still had to buy Moria to continue. Then they changed it, and made it free past that, and all of that is still free. The new stuff won't be, and I'm sure they'll update their chart to say "Unlimited to level 85" or some such. That doesn't make what came before a "lie" either. That's just an emotionally laden term used to try and score points in an argument. It was "Unlimited" up until Helm's Deep ships, and then it won't be "Unlimited". But they haven't actually taken anything available today away from anyone.

    Khafar
    Please show me the 8 yr old info on the Wall Street Journal site. It's not there, they removed it because it wasn't relevant any longer. Customers are still using the features chart to determine if they want to play/purchase this game. You might not think so, but having the epics for free could sway some customers to play the game. It would take seconds to add a disclaimer that the epics are limited to current content. This is something that should have been done before the pre-sales were offered. You keep bringing up prior circumstances when the epics weren't free. That no longer plays into the discussion. Once Turbine changed access to unlimited it overrode any prior statements regarding the epics. Currently Turbine has a features chart that list the epics access as unlimited. It also has a sales page for Helms Deep that says differently. Having conflicting sales information is a bad business practice. I'm not sure why you are so adverse to having the advertising match. As far as the promise about the epics, I remember a statement that they would always be free. You don't recall that statement. Since the statements from that time period were removed, there is no way to see who is correct. Either way, Turbine will do as they please.
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  23. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by robo7425 View Post
    As far as the promise about the epics, I remember a statement that they would always be free. You don't recall that statement. Since the statements from that time period were removed, there is no way to see who is correct. Either way, Turbine will do as they please.
    From Beanie's post:
    https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...48#post5676848

    Here you go...
    I've actually seen someone complaining that we're living up to the promise we made that the epic story line will always be free to all players. I'm not sure what to do with that complaint at all.
    I wonder if that someone was Khafar
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  24. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by angus_hunter View Post
    Ive been reading some of the forum posts about HD and I am horrified
    The Epic Storyline..is now for VIP's only.
    HORRIFIED
    Thats it, FreeToPlay is now FreeToSuffer
    Turbine fix it, or you'll lose all your people to RIFT, DDO, RoM and WoW.
    All this means is that if you want the Epic for 'free', gather a heap of TP and get it when it's available for TP. Yeah, you'll be later than anyone else but you'll still have Helm's Deep including the Epic for 'free'.

    Oh, and Turbine broke a promise. Now that in itself is another matter of it's own. It is another promise Turbine has backed out on, showing that promises are indeed a dangerous thing for MMO's in the long term: markets change, customerbases change, game designs change. This broken promise will hang around this game's neck from now on, like the other ones from the past. New players won't know them, but there are plenty of players who remember.

    It's a shame Turbine didn't do the one thing that would have done a little bit to alleviate the curse of the broken promise: communicate upfront and openly about it and apologize for the necessairy evil. Then make the pre-order announcement.

  25. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beaniemooch View Post
    It was said at one time that the epic quests would always be free to all players.
    I understand that part, my question was what that particular chart had to do with the issue.

 

 
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