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  1. #226
    Players need to stop rewarding WB-Turbine for selling them less and less.


    I just can't understand why anyone is pre-ordering this game.

  2. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khafar View Post

    By the way, I read those links when I responded to your (rather obnoxious) post last week, so you can save yourself the time of posting them yet again.

    Khafar
    When you repeatedly say:

    Quote Originally Posted by Khafar View Post

    I still haven't been able to find Turbine putting out anything official saying that the epic story would be free forever. No press releases, no promotional materials for updates or expansions, no interviews with the gaming press. Yes, it's said "Unlimited" on that payment comparison chart for most (but not all) of the past 3 years, but that chart gets updated routinely (like when it went from "Up to Level 50" to "Unlimited"... and will soon go from "Unlimited" to "Up to Level 85").

    Khafar
    The minimum I can do is remind you of the answers to your questions.

    So, with our Executive Producer (Kate Paiz? Aaron Campbell? I don 't even know anymore...) reaching out to the community once a year and Devs who don't really interact much (and we all know why, no need to explain), we're left with the CS team.

    And now you're telling me the word of Sapience holds little to no power?

    Humm. Not sure if that's a good thing...
    Ricardofurriel 105 Champion Edved 105 Captain Roovery 105 Minstrel Galathriell 105 Lore-Master EddieVedder 105 Rune-Keeper

  3. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by RicardoFurriel View Post
    The minimum I can do is remind you of the answers to your questions.
    Except that's not what I was asking for, so telling me the same thing several times isn't helpful.

    And now you're telling me the word of Sapience holds little to no power?
    Come on. Do you honestly think Sapience gets to create new promises for Turbine? It's true that he's a voice for the company, but he can make mistakes too. If the whole "epics are free forever" thing were a company policy, it would have surely been mentioned somewhere besides a post buried in a player thread - once.

    Honestly, if I were in their shoes I wouldn't "communicate" a whole lot of substance either. Nothing about futures, anyway. Players treat those as divine promises, then throw a temper tantrum if anything changes. The customers I deal with are all professionals, and even with that group I don't talk futures. Not unless we're in the process of delivering that future in the next month or less.

    Khafar

  4. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khafar View Post
    Except that's not what I was asking for, so telling me the same thing several times isn't helpful.

    Come on. Do you honestly think Sapience gets to create new promises for Turbine? It's true that he's a voice for the company, but he can make mistakes too. If the whole "epics are free forever" thing were a company policy, it would have surely been mentioned somewhere besides a post buried in a player thread - once.

    Honestly, if I were in their shoes I wouldn't "communicate" a whole lot of substance either. Nothing about futures, anyway. Players treat those as divine promises, then throw a temper tantrum if anything changes. The customers I deal with are all professionals, and even with that group I don't talk futures. Not unless we're in the process of delivering that future in the next month or less.

    Khafar
    Before I start, let me start by saying that I might be wrong . Or right .

    I could swear that I read posts where people other than Sapience mentioned the epics would be always free. Can I prove it? No. I don't have screenshots. But I'm fairly positive about it when the f2p transition occurred. But with the forum consolidations, we can't go back and check. Unless someone happen to have taken a SS.

    But even if someone would bring it up, it seems that your argument would be "well, what was true then is false now because the game is different now", or "goals change overtime due to x, y and z".

    It's a no win situation trying to argue this.

    PS: if yo think it wasn't such a big deal, why did MoL felt the need to address the situation?

    https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...90#post6916390

    And if Turbine never made that promise, than why not state so (here or somewhere else )? This conversation would be long over. Or do you think there may be SS to prove them wrong?

    /conspiracy theory off.
    Ricardofurriel 105 Champion Edved 105 Captain Roovery 105 Minstrel Galathriell 105 Lore-Master EddieVedder 105 Rune-Keeper

  5. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by FarFooFaFa View Post
    Players need to stop rewarding WB-Turbine for selling them less and less.

    I just can't understand why anyone is pre-ordering this game.
    The logic is a bit hard to follow here. If you buy the game, including being so enthused that you would actually PRE-order it, then you will get the epic. That's what this thread is about remember, the epic quest line. The people who will not be getting the epic for free will be a subset of those who are not ordering.

    Now maybe it's a bad thing that the epic is not free in this expansion, and I agree that this is a worthy topic of discussion. However that has nothing to do with pre-ordering and nothing to do with "less" being offered in the expansion. If you wish to discuss a separate topic about the consumer value of the expansion that then can be done in a separate thread.

  6. #231
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    Quote Originally Posted by RicardoFurriel View Post
    Can I prove it? No.
    Me neither, and that's why I've been asking. I actually spent a fair amount of time looking, and I can find many dozens of articles mentioning that the epic story when LOTRO went F2P was free up to level 50. Dozens more in the recent past saying that the epic story for HD isn't. And basically nothing, anywhere, about the epic story becoming free beyond 50, let alone free forever. I know that moving it up to free past 50 must have at least been in some release notes somewhere, but finding even that has been a problem (now that the Lorebook is defunct). No press releases about that extension. No interviews. No promotions for expansions. Nada.

    I'd at least like to know what they said in the release notes, if anyone can find it. I can of course go back and look in the Wayback Machine, but that's a pretty slow process.

    Khafar

  7. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khafar View Post
    I'd at least like to know what they said in the release notes, if anyone can find it. I can of course go back and look in the Wayback Machine, but that's a pretty slow process.
    I found it here - turned out they changed it just 2 months after going F2P, and this is what they had to say about it back then:

    Experience more of Middle-earth - FOR FREE!
    Free and Premium players will now be able to enter the regions of Moria, Lothlórien, Mirkwood, and Enedwaith for FREE! We have adjusted the access of Free and Premium players. You may now follow the Epic Storyline through Moria, Mirkwood and, Enedwaith. This includes free access to the following:

    • The Legendary item system
    • Attain level 65
    • Access Moria, Mirkwood, Lothlórien, and Enedwaith regions

    Note: You will still need to purchase the appropriate quest packs or expansion packs to access other content (quests, deeds, instances, classes, etc) in these areas.

    Even more Free Content!

    The Lone-lands quest pack is now free to all players!


    Khafar

  8. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymphonic View Post
    I had to Google this, and I still have no clue what it is. Something about proving something about zeros. Trying to read the wiki about it made me dizzy and glassy eyed!
    My incredibly ignorant oversimplification: the Riemann hypothesis states that a solution to a famous math problem will always contain numbers along a certain number line. Sort of like how you can say that all the solutions to f(x) = 2x will lie on on the graph of the line if you graphed it. It's important because if the Riemann hypothesis were to be proven with a rock-solid math proof, that proof would likely contain a method for determining the pattern that prime numbers occur. This would be significant because it would invalidate most types of public key encryption that is used on the internet today. Much of that encryption depends on extremely large numbers being very, very hard to factor into, say, two nearly-large prime numbers. If the Riemann hypothesis was proven and prime numbers made as easy to predict as the pattern, 2,4,6,8,..... then all that encryption that relies on the products of large prime numbers being hard to factor would become invalid. TLDR: A proof of the Riemann hypothesis would mean that you would have to stop banking online, at least for a while.

    Quote Originally Posted by Danchir View Post
    The very narrow specificity of the problem and the fact that Pluto is a bit far from 'deep space' put aside, I'm not sure how fun will be for him to 'colonize' (by himself?) a pseudo-planet and spent a lifetime of activity for solving this exact problem Especially if he is constantly distracted by playing LOTRO instead, which will significantly increase the odds of someone starting an anti-T lawsuit, for example (since that was the reference point). The major problem here is that the lag on Pluto will be terrible. Forget group play - you'll be fighting the boss for many minutes after he's already dead. Funny thing is, this can happen while playing on this planet also...
    But think of the epic trolling I could inflict on Sapience about the lag and blame Turbine that the speed of light isn't faster from Pluto to Earth!! That alone would make a Pluto habitation worth it. But more realistically (cause this fantasy of mine is all about the realism ), I'd have my own personal LOTRO server on Pluto. It'd be a billion dollar super computer cluster that would never lag at all and me and all by buds would be connected to it via top-notch fiber.

    Quote Originally Posted by Treasurly View Post
    I'm actually quite amazed as I've read every post up to this point. I'm a vip player and we have a kinship that's half f2p players. When I say f2p I mean they haven't spent a single cent. I don't look down on these players for what ever reason they haven't contributed money. Many of them I've learned to call gamer pals and even a few I've created subs so they can experience some of the content with me. I've already purchased the HD content before reading about the "paid epic" I really could care less. I enjoy my entertainment no matter what form it comes in and I enjoy who I spend my time with whether it be online or out in the fresh air.

    I find the argument about so called promises silly.

    We have over most our free player base in kinship grinding their butts off to make sure when the Content becomes TP based they can purchase the content.

    If it becomes available that week wonderful! Most our kinship will be enjoying new content, if it takes a month-2-3 That's fine too.. our f2p players are ready and dedicated to do their part to be part of the new content.

    Maybe they haven't paid a red cent but the joy many of these f2p players have brought to the game I count them in as contributing something and to me that's worth my money no matter what turbine decides to do with new content. I'm either going to enjoy what I do or move onto something else I enjoy. I'm not gonna sit around and complain about something when I can spend that time enjoying myself. Life is too short to sit and mope in misery when I can be having the time of my life with what I want to do.

    I rather play with the people who enjoy the game to its fullest no matter what content you do or do not have. I'll make sure what we do is what you can do and still enjoy every minute of it
    .
    I don't understand pages and pages of blah blah broken promises and free loading comments. We all play this game, we all play differently, we all enjoy different aspects of this game, but we all play.
    Ah, the voice of reason. As much as I agree with you, aren't reasonable voices not supposed to post on these forums?! j/k of course...



    OK, here's my attempt at /thread:

    Ingrid's "You Promised Me" -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtJ1rW9hSqc
    other favorite middle-earth games: The One Ring RPG by Cubicle 7; LotR: The Card Game by FFG; Hobbit/LotR Strategy Battle Game by GW

  9. #234
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    Sapience did say on 9/12/2011 that the epic quest line would always be free. See his original post at https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...48#post5676848.

    The appropriate portion of the post would be:
    I've actually seen someone complaining that we're living up to the promise we made that the epic story line will always be free to all players. I'm not sure what to do with that complaint at all.
    I'd explain it to you, but I'm all out of Puppets and Crayons.
    ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
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  10. #235
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beaniemooch View Post
    Sapience did say on 9/12/2011 that the epic quest line would always be free.
    Yes, we know. Which is apparently the only place it's ever been mentioned, since nobody (including me) is able to find such a "promise" anywhere else. Not in the release notes (see a few posts above), not in press releases, not in public interviews, not in promotional materials. Kind of strange if that's their actual policy, right? "Epic Story Free For Now And For All Time" seems like a big enough deal to at least get a mention, not be buried in an off-the-cuff comment by community relations in the middle of a player thread 2 years ago.

    Sapience referring to a non-existent promise was a mistake, just like Patience saying LOTRO wasn't going F2P was a mistake. Both referred to a future that neither CM had any power to make promises about.

    Khafar

  11. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khafar View Post
    Sapience referring to a non-existent promise was a mistake, just like Patience saying LOTRO wasn't going F2P was a mistake. Both referred to a future that neither CM had any power to make promises about.
    This. Just as we don't hold them to MEO's promise that this game would never be a leveling game.

    I wonder if the Middle-earth Online team is working on something interesting these days.
    Tuco of the Quick Post

  12. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khafar View Post
    Yes, we know. Which is apparently the only place it's ever been mentioned, since nobody (including me) is able to find such a "promise" anywhere else. Not in the release notes (see a few posts above), not in press releases, not in public interviews, not in promotional materials. Kind of strange if that's their actual policy, right? "Epic Story Free For Now And For All Time" seems like a big enough deal to at least get a mention, not be buried in an off-the-cuff comment by community relations in the middle of a player thread 2 years ago.

    Sapience referring to a non-existent promise was a mistake, just like Patience saying LOTRO wasn't going F2P was a mistake. Both referred to a future that neither CM had any power to make promises about.

    Khafar
    "It's not denial. I'm just selective about the reality I accept."
    Bill Watterson

  13. #238
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zombielord View Post
    "It's not denial. I'm just selective about the reality I accept."
    Damn straight. Because some people's "reality"... isn't realistic.

    Khafar

  14. #239
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    Quote Originally Posted by angus_hunter View Post
    Ive been reading some of the forum posts about HD and I am horrified
    The Epic Storyline..is now for VIP's only.
    HORRIFIED
    Thats it, FreeToPlay is now FreeToSuffer
    Turbine fix it, or you'll lose all your people to RIFT, DDO, RoM and WoW.
    So let me get this straight you're going to leave because this may cause you to have to put some
    money into a game that up till now you've been playing for free? This is like having a bum of a
    brother in law threatening to leave unless you get a better couch for him to lay about on. I'm not
    seeing how the people who pay either as premium, VIP, or lifers are really going to miss you all
    that much. Watch out the door don't hit ya where God split ya on the way out?
    "Hello, my name is Coliin and I am an Altoholic".

    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0520a0000000c7f7d/signature.png]Coliin[/charsig]

  15. #240
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    "Let's see, I don't pay any money towards the game, I feel entitled to an entirely free game. I should complain about having to pay like the rest of the games populations because I don't get special treatment."
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0920d0000002c9618/signature.png]Farimur[/charsig]

  16. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khafar View Post
    Damn straight. Because some people's "reality"... isn't realistic.

    Khafar
    I'm sorry, but actually I was referring to *you* who I believe lost contact with "what's reality" ...


    Let's say the epic questline was never intended to be 'free': Why was it free for so long?

    "Please insert another coin to continue" ... Is the latest expansion this empty that the epic questchain has to serve as an appeal to buy it?
    Last edited by Zombielord; Sep 26 2013 at 09:52 PM.

  17. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ouef View Post
    So let me get this straight you're going to leave because this may cause you to have to put some
    money into a game that up till now you've been playing for free? This is like having a bum of a
    brother in law threatening to leave unless you get a better couch for him to lay about on. I'm not
    seeing how the people who pay either as premium, VIP, or lifers are really going to miss you all
    that much. Watch out the door don't hit ya where God split ya on the way out?
    Quote Originally Posted by OruiFarimur View Post
    "Let's see, I don't pay any money towards the game, I feel entitled to an entirely free game. I should complain about having to pay like the rest of the games populations because I don't get special treatment."
    Man the zingers keep on flying faster than the light beams out of Flash Gordon's blaster. Ouef and OruiFarimur, I'd pay you bounties of 35 gold each if I knew your toon's name if they were on my server. Because those are such zingy comebacks and I agree with you both wholeheartedly.

    Too bad one doesn't have to pre-purchase Helm's Deep in order to post in this thread. That'd settle things down fast
    other favorite middle-earth games: The One Ring RPG by Cubicle 7; LotR: The Card Game by FFG; Hobbit/LotR Strategy Battle Game by GW

  18. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zombielord View Post
    Let's say the epic questline was never intended to be 'free': Why was it free for so long?
    It started off "limited", which is what was in their press releases when they went F2P. Back then, it was "Up until level 50". Later, they opened it up and made it free to the current cap (65 at the time). Raised it twice. And now, it's going to have a limit again... 35 levels higher than the original level. All in all, it was free to the level cap for 2 years and change.

    Is the latest expansion this empty that the epic quest chain has to serve as an appeal to buy it?
    I think the official explanation is that the epic story is going to be tied in with Epic Battles, a feature you have to buy Helm's Deep to have access to. However, I suspect they mostly want to give people (all people) more reasons to buy the expansion. That's why they've broadened their endgame to include solo/duo players, why they're allowing people as low as level 10 to join in, etc. If they're going to spend the better part of a year working on an expansion, it does seem like a good idea to try and maximize the percentage of players who buy it...

    Khafar

  19. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr_toad View Post
    My incredibly ignorant oversimplification: the Riemann hypothesis states that a solution to a famous math problem will always contain numbers along a certain number line. Sort of like how you can say that all the solutions to f(x) = 2x will lie on on the graph of the line if you graphed it. It's important because if the Riemann hypothesis were to be proven with a rock-solid math proof, that proof would likely contain a method for determining the pattern that prime numbers occur. This would be significant because it would invalidate most types of public key encryption that is used on the internet today. Much of that encryption depends on extremely large numbers being very, very hard to factor into, say, two nearly-large prime numbers. If the Riemann hypothesis was proven and prime numbers made as easy to predict as the pattern, 2,4,6,8,..... then all that encryption that relies on the products of large prime numbers being hard to factor would become invalid. TLDR: A proof of the Riemann hypothesis would mean that you would have to stop banking online, at least for a while.




    I get it now! Thanks for the explanation!
    Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"
    Continuing the never ending battle to keep Lobelia Sackville-Baggins in check

  20. #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beaniemooch View Post
    Sapience did say on 9/12/2011 that the epic quest line would always be free. See his original post at https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...48#post5676848.
    But isn't there a clause somewhere that says that "Online Experience May Change"? It's probably in the EULA somewhere. It was certainly on the back of my LOTRO box.


    I think people are making a big deal out of nothing. So what if an MMO company has to change the way it does things? If someone cannot handle change an MMO is going to drive them nuts.

    This is not just LOTRO, it is every MMO under the sun.

    Even the LOTRO server on Pluto!
    Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"
    Continuing the never ending battle to keep Lobelia Sackville-Baggins in check

  21. #246
    The problem behind the 'problem' is not that the Epic will be sold this time round, but that now I (and maybe others too) view this as a desperate 'filling with substance' of the thing you buy. Kinda like a general loosing too many proper soldiers, battle after battle, and starting to fill the ranks with some office 'soldiers', then civilians, then nearly children... That's a temporary 'win' based on quantities, it's not real strategy.

    I didn't understand that there will be a separate server on Pluto, my mistake. Now of course this makes it playable, with only the updates coming a bit later once in awhile. I also realize at this point that there will be buddies on Pluto playing with you. I assume a small expedition of several people. At least enough to form a ride, I hope. And also a kinship, for it will be very difficult to find each other in-game - because 0.25 persons will use the gllf, and because the game will put you in different layers to reduce load.

  22. #247
    So the base edition for helms deep costs 40 usd to purchase, the expac will last a year, that's less than .75 per week, and people are complaining about it? Amazing
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0820700000011de2f/01005/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

  23. #248
    Also, it is less than $0.11 per day. Which means absolutely nothing, because this is some completely irrelevant way to 'evaluate' it.

  24. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capt_Tim View Post
    So the base edition for helms deep costs 40 usd to purchase, the expac will last a year, that's less than .75 per week, and people are complaining about it? Amazing
    Unless there's something worthwhile in it, it's lasts about 5 minutes which makes it extraordinarily expensive. We've been promised a lot, we'll see what they deliver. Until then, my money stays firmly in my pocket.
    I'd explain it to you, but I'm all out of Puppets and Crayons.
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  25. #250
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beaniemooch View Post
    Unless there's something worthwhile in it, it's lasts about 5 minutes which makes it extraordinarily expensive. We've been promised a lot, we'll see what they deliver. Until then, my money stays firmly in my pocket.
    Exactly. It all depends on a player.

    I've spent already more than 1000 hours in LOTRO, I don't rush through game and I'm still around level 60.
    I've bought HD because I believe that I'll have another 1000 or 2000 hours in LOTRO. And then I will probably switch to ESO or EQN.
    I could wait with the purchase, but I decided to buy it now just to support company that has given me thousand of hours of fun.

 

 
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